Encore Boston Harbor Casino | 1 Broadway | Everett

Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

tangent said:
If only there were a way to get people out of their cars and into the Orange line... wait its coming to me... like a place where people could get out of their cars and park them someplace... wait wait its coming to me... something like a parking garage at Sullivan Square Station.
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Why would you encourage more traffic in to Sullivan Square. Would you not put any new garages further out on the orange line, even at station landing? Adding parking capacity at Sullivan makes no sense to me.
 
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Ruairi said:
Why would you encourage more traffic in to Sullivan Square. Would you not put any new garages further out on the orange line, even at station landing? Adding parking capacity at Sullivan makes no sense to me.
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Sullivan is directly off of the rt 93 ramps. No other Orange line station is as close to the highway to the North of the city. It doesn't make any sense that Sullivan doesn't have a garage already. You have an obvious inter modal connection there but without the parking capacity to make sufficient use of it.

Putting a garage there would keep traffic out of Sullivan Square by diverting people into the garage.
 
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tangent said:
Sullivan is directly off of the rt 93 ramps. No other Orange line station is as close to the highway to the North of the city. It doesn't make any sense that Sullivan doesn't have a garage already. You have an obvious inter modal connection there but without the parking capacity to make sufficient use of it.

Putting a garage there would keep traffic out of Sullivan Square by diverting people into the garage.
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There are a number of parking spots at Wellington and Assembly. Heck the garage across the way from Wellington is always half empty. No need to add parking at Sullivan.
 
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tangent said:
Sullivan is directly off of the rt 93 ramps. No other Orange line station is as close to the highway to the North of the city. It doesn't make any sense that Sullivan doesn't have a garage already. You have an obvious inter modal connection there but without the parking capacity to make sufficient use of it.

Putting a garage there would keep traffic out of Sullivan Square by diverting people into the garage.
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If you remove the infrastructure for cars (roadway lanes, parking, garages, etc.) and add the infrastructure for people (transit, sidewalks, trails, plazas, cycle tracks), then how people will choose to move around becomes clear. Improving access region-wide across multiple mode is the only thing that will divert cars away from Sullivan Square. There is more than enough space in Sullivan, Wynn, and Assembly to accommodate people... there just needs to be more thoughtful regional planning to move them into and out of there.

A parking garage is not thoughtful. It's regressive.
 
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tangent said:
Seems like some decent short/medium term improvements with more to come in a later phase starting in 2021/2022.

Hard to tell from the plans shown on the video, but is the parking area between Main and Maffa going to remain surface parking?

Would be great if that could be converted to just a median strip with some landscaping. And a garage with street level use at Sullivan Square...
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what was approved today at PIC is all of the Wynn mitigation that is required to be done before COO (they also have to do funding). Parking lot between Main and Maffa stays for now. Lots of smaller improvements (alignment improvements, lane modifications, BRT lanes to get in and out of Sullivan) but the biggest improvement of the Wynn work is improving the bus depot at the station and having direct access between Main/Maffa and Cambridge St without going through the rotary (using what is now bus only). Signal improvements also have a big impact.

The City is doing, and has been doing, a redesign of Sullivan that started long before Wynn (or even Assembly--well I guess since Assembly was going to be an Ikea anyway). That work will remove the rotary creating a grid with shortened underpasses for Rt 99 traffic with construction expected to begin in 2021 or so (supposedly).

A garage at Sullivan is not the way to go. Should we be putting garages at JFK/UMass too? Sullivan Sq is as close to downtown as the Prudential building. Its amazing that area near 93 has stayed industrial as long as it has.
 
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dshoost88 said:
If you remove the infrastructure for cars (roadway lanes, parking, garages, etc.) and add the infrastructure for people (transit, sidewalks, trails, plazas, cycle tracks), then how people will choose to move around becomes clear. Improving access region-wide across multiple mode is the only thing that will divert cars away from Sullivan Square. There is more than enough space in Sullivan, Wynn, and Assembly to accommodate people... there just needs to be more thoughtful regional planning to move them into and out of there.

A parking garage is not thoughtful. It's regressive.
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Seriously? No way cities exist without the ability to get people in and out of them efficiently. There is a whole world beyond the city limits which you rely on to make the city economically and physically viable.

These magical self sustaining cities that you speak of don't exist and nor should they. Cars are part of the transportation mix, always will be, and always should be because they fill a necessary roll.
 
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BKNA said:
A garage at Sullivan is not the way to go. Should we be putting garages at JFK/UMass too? Sullivan Sq is as close to downtown as the Prudential building. Its amazing that area near 93 has stayed industrial as long as it has.
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Yes, absolutely we should have a garage at JFK UMass. The only reason not to have a garage at both places is because the private garage owners closer to downtown are making so much spreading around money.

If you want more mass transit, then you need to make it actually work for people now and not just on a paper system that you might be able to build a few decades from now.
 
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thats the only reason? garage owners that have zero political pull? Ive always thought how great it would be to get into that clandestine world of garage owners.

there is a way to get people in and out of a city efficiently and I agree it is very important. Its called the commuter rail. OK, maybe ours isnt so efficient, but the answer isnt to bypass the commuter rail and dump everybody onto transit. We should 'fix' the commuter rail.

If you want more people on transit, you build uses for people near the transit. Id much rather have people living near the station than people driving to the station. And a much (much) higher percentage of residents would take the transit than the percentage of people that would drive to the station.

By the way, this argument completely ignores the fact that garages are closing/decreasing all over the place (both in downtown and in gateway cities such as Quincy and Malden). So ignoring the planning perspective, is it even financially beneficial to build garages at this point?
AND, lets not forget that garages will be obsolete in 20 years with autonomous vehicles. Even if autonomous vehicles are only good enough to park themselves (they are already more advanced than that), that would be a 40% reduction in the SFage necessary to park the same number of vehicles.
 
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tangent said:
Seriously? No way cities exist without the ability to get people in and out of them efficiently. There is a whole world beyond the city limits which you rely on to make the city economically and physically viable.

These magical self sustaining cities that you speak of don't exist and nor should they. Cars are part of the transportation mix, always will be, and always should be because they fill a necessary roll.
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Tangent, please read what I wrote again.

Like you (by the sound of it), I now live beyond Boston's city limits... all the way in Manchester, NH in fact! Without a car, I simply would not be able to get from Manchester to Boston. Period. And by no means is it lost on me how big a role the regional, national, and global economies factor into the City of Boston's economy and how people get to/from the City. I evaluate economic development conditions and perform regional planning for a living, so I'm aware of the role vehicular transportation infrastructure play in the overall transportation mix. As conditions are now, vehicular transportation infrastructure will play a vital role to the Wynn Boston Harbor.

I stand by my point. Improving access region-wide across multiple modes is the only thing that will divert cars away from Sullivan Square. Until there are multi-modal transportation options across all communities, accessible to all residents region-wide--including in Greater Boston, Southern NH, Southern Maine, Central/Western MA, South Shore, Rhode Island--cars will continue to descend upon Boston. But if you implement equitable transportation policies in all communities for all modes, you reduce the demand for vehicular infrastructure and, thus, solve the traffic congestion issues currently plaguing the area in question.
 
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tangent said:
Sullivan is directly off of the rt 93 ramps. No other Orange line station is as close to the highway to the North of the city. It doesn't make any sense that Sullivan doesn't have a garage already. You have an obvious inter modal connection there but without the parking capacity to make sufficient use of it.

Putting a garage there would keep traffic out of Sullivan Square by diverting people into the garage.
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You can get off 93 but you can't get on it. Everyone would have to join Assembly traffic by the Home Depot. And anyway, you're talking about a subway station two stations out from North Station in a huge metro area. Sullivan should be filled with public transit oriented housing. Put in a street network and make the most out of the Station.
 
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Wynn is putting in a 3000 car garage across the river... to me it is very pro transit to say let's look at keeping cars off of city streets by moving garages closer to the highway exit ramps to an Orange line station and bus station.

You have to think about the transportation system as a whole and not as transit versus cars versus pedestrians and bikes. If you want transit to make sense for people, then you make good connections where there are already connections.

And you have to look at the economics. Assembly needed an Orange line station, but it also needed to boot strap with garages to bring in people for its mix of businesses.

Telling people to go park at Anderson RTC and take commuter rail from the North, or drive down rt 16 to Wellington isn't going to do anything positive for Sullivan and it won't keep cars out of Sullivan during rush hour.
 
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I know the topic have moved away (and back on topic). But I want say a piece about Tangent vs dshoost88 argument.

In terms of distance from the city center, it makes sense Sullivan Sq should be focus on close housing and business. In terms of access points, it make sense Sullivan Sq for car infrastructure for cars.

There's truth that Sullivan Sq is underutilized as a place so close to the urban core. But there's also truth that you don't change driver behavior by just expecting drivers to be different. There's has to be a reason. Else the driver will either keep driving deeper into the city. Thus the incentive a short drive off the ramp into a garage then continue by train. Which is what Tangent is trying to get at, but it also getting caught up that it means giving up land that should be transit-oriented.

But if you look at the area, it doesn't have to be in Sullivan and thus competing as a space for housing and businesses. There's areas (like the Home Depot block and blocks near it) that can serve as the close ride off the ramp and guide towards transit. he biggest issue is the current set up of the off-ramp guides cars towards Sullivan, the off-ramp area needs to allow easier to get to one the quieter areas with a connection to something like Assembly.
 
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ant8904 said:
I know the topic have moved away (and back on topic). But I want say a piece about Tangent vs dshoost88 argument.

In terms of distance from the city center, it makes sense Sullivan Sq should be focus on close housing and business. In terms of access points, it make sense Sullivan Sq for car infrastructure for cars.

There's truth that Sullivan Sq is underutilized as a place so close to the urban core. But there's also truth that you don't change driver behavior by just expecting drivers to be different. There's has to be a reason. Else the driver will either keep driving deeper into the city. Thus the incentive a short drive off the ramp into a garage then continue by train. Which is what Tangent is trying to get at, but it also getting caught up that it means giving up land that should be transit-oriented.

But if you look at the area, it doesn't have to be in Sullivan and thus competing as a space for housing and businesses. There's areas (like the Home Depot block and blocks near it) that can serve as the close ride off the ramp and guide towards transit. he biggest issue is the current set up of the off-ramp guides cars towards Sullivan, the off-ramp area needs to allow easier to get to one the quieter areas with a connection to something like Assembly.
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The Home Depot/Circuit City location isn't terrible, but why would you treat car transfer times any different than bus or train transfers? Putting a parking garage a block away from a transit hub adds 5 minutes to transfers and disadvantages classes of people that can't walk that far so easily.

Besides being directly off the highway without an intersection or stoplight. The SS station is owned by the state as part of our transportation infrastructure which makes it right for considering transportation purposes first. Also, it is the least expensive, least time consuming way for the state to jump start development of the area.

Incorporating a sizable garage into a larger mixed use structure there would be great. It would bootstrap the area. I never considered it as station-garage-only. You would at least need to make the garages more like those at Assembly with ground level retail. And a hotel on top would certainly be successful with transit to Boston there and Wynn across the river

I think part of the issue of discussion is that I think keeping cars out of the Sullivan Square rotary is the goal to avoid a bottleneck there. Rather than just keeping cars out of Sullivan Square area altogether which means fewer potential customers for future businesses if you want to extend the Assembly model South to Sullivan.
 
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tangent said:
The Home Depot/Circuit City location isn't terrible, but why would you treat car transfer times any different than bus or train transfers? Putting a parking garage a block away from a transit hub adds 5 minutes to transfers and disadvantages classes of people that can't walk that far so easily.

Besides being directly off the highway without an intersection or stoplight. The SS station is owned by the state as part of our transportation infrastructure which makes it right for considering transportation purposes first. Also, it is the least expensive, least time consuming way for the state to jump start development of the area.

Incorporating a sizable garage into a larger mixed use structure there would be great. It would bootstrap the area. I never considered it as station-garage-only. You would at least need to make the garages more like those at Assembly with ground level retail. And a hotel on top would certainly be successful with transit to Boston there and Wynn across the river

I think part of the issue of discussion is that I think keeping cars out of the Sullivan Square rotary is the goal to avoid a bottleneck there. Rather than just keeping cars out of Sullivan Square area altogether which means fewer potential customers for future businesses if you want to extend the Assembly model South to Sullivan.
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how would you get back on the highway? There's no option southbound and northbound gets funneled up to Assembly, or are there new on-ramps in this plan? If you're coming from the northern suburbs, just get on the OL a couple stops further north where dense housing is less in demand. Both banks of the Mystic are ripe for development and wanting to bring commuter cars into the middle of that so they can save 10 mins on the OL seems mad to me.
 
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If you're coming from the northern suburbs, just get on the OL a couple stops further north where dense housing is less in demand.
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I need to point out what you're missing from that line. Think from the perspective of the driver. Any rational driver would be weighing pros and cons of possible paths to commute. The two in this discussion are drive into the city and park-and-ride.

Now up to this point, the driver have been driving into the city. Why? Well it's the driver's most optimal choice for minimizing time, stress, and money. For that driver to change their behavior, something have to tip the balance that park-and-riding becomes the more preferable choice. Saying "just get on the OL a couple stops further north" does nothing to this balance. Unless you want to shame the driver for not choosing the less optimal option. With park-and-ride garage and station right of the off-ramp, now that is change in that may tip balance for the driver.

Currently only Sullivan (and kinda Assembly) are that close to the highway. Wellington, Malden Center, and Oak Grove all means driving several miles before able to park and ride from those stations. If all things remains the same, why would you expect the driver to change without something to change the balance?
 
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ant8904 said:
I need to point out what you're missing from that line. Think from the perspective of the driver. Any rational driver would be weighing pros and cons of possible paths to commute. The two in this discussion are drive into the city and park-and-ride.

Now up to this point, the driver have been driving into the city. Why? Well it's the driver's most optimal choice for minimizing time, stress, and money. For that driver to change their behavior, something have to tip the balance that park-and-riding becomes the more preferable choice. Saying "just get on the OL a couple stops further north" does nothing to this balance. Unless you want to shame the driver for not choosing the less optimal option. With park-and-ride garage and station right of the off-ramp, now that is change in that may tip balance for the driver.

Currently only Sullivan (and kinda Assembly) are that close to the highway. Wellington, Malden Center, and Oak Grove all means driving several miles before able to park and ride from those stations. If all things remains the same, why would you expect the driver to change without something to change the balance?
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A park and ride facility in Charlestown?? It's the 21st century. The habits of drivers have to change otherwise the city will continue to choke. What next? why not turn the inner belt into a huge parking lot, just off 28 and easy to spin in to the city on the new green line.
 
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Ruairi said:
A park and ride facility in Charlestown?? It's the 21st century.
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You just made "It's Current Year!!!!" meme. It's presentism that somehow history just goes in one direction and fits perfect to your views. Nor exclaiming two question marks showing your outrage change anything

Not to mention the way you exclaiming that seem to imply that I blindly and outrageously support the idea of a park-and-ride without no any note that Sullivan Sq make sense as a center of business and housing. I am trying to explain the point of view why Tangent's park-and-ride garage is not illogical either.


The habits of drivers have to change otherwise the city will continue to choke.
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But just telling drivers you have to change doesn't mean drivers will change. The patterns and paths are not random. If the driver is going to do something different, then something that affects their decision making have to change.


What next? why not turn the inner belt into a huge parking lot, just off 28 and easy to spin in to the city on the new green line.
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Tangent proposed a mixed-use garage park-and-ride. I pointed out that he make sense because it offers drivers a super easy transfer from car to train. I said nothing about "huge parking lot". You created a completely different point - a strawman - and then attacked it.

----

Again, how does again that last point said addressed anything I said? How does it not make sense that drivers would be interested in an easy car-to-train transfer and thus the one off-ramp that is a quarter of a mile of a station? How do you plan on persuading drivers to choose a different route from their current habits?


Now on semi-tangental point. I will note Sullivan is not the ideal-ideal spot for a highway to park-and-ride location. There was once a plan of building out the all the lines to Route 128 with park and rides right off the highways at each of those stations, but it didn't got fully implemented. The ideal one is probably the old plan of Orange Line actually built out to Reading and a park-and-ride right off the highway from there.

But it didn't happen and its a long way away if it ever does happen (like post BLX which we're still years away from GLX completion). In this academic discussion, the cheapest plan is something like Tangent said. Entice drivers to get off the road with an easy car-to-train transfer by having a garage next to an off-ramp that is next to a station.

Again, this does not mean this outweigh the value that Sullivan Sq should be full of housing and businesses. But I recognize there's a logic and thus a point of the idea.
 
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