Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Couldn’t those with property along Red or Blue do the same? Suffolk Downs redevelopment certainly would benefit from Red-Blue.

Can we not go too deep down the "deals only happen due to public corruption" rabbit hole that jklo burrowed down? Unless someone has specific allegations to make of course.

 

[DBM]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

So why is this the one project the State wants so much?

Because these are the last two official "Gateway" cities in Eastern Mass. that don't enjoy commuter rail service to Boston. All the others--Haverhill, Lowell, Lawrence, Fitchburg, Worcester, Brockton--have benefited from whatever positive impacts CR service bestows, for decades.

We toss around the "Gateway city" phrase so much that it becomes trite--but the fact is, in policy and planning circles, the Gateway caucus strikes me as being pretty important. They all compare notes, right? They're all acutely self-conscious of which ones are perhaps "pulling away" from the others, and how that may or may not be due to the implementation of attractive new infrastructure assets.

My apologies of this has all been noted upthread, but I'm not sure it has.

Also, as I've mentioned upthread, I'll repeat--from a geographic standpoint, to me it seems Fall Reeve and New Bedford are being CR-tethered to the wrong metropolis. They are 47 and 50 miles, respectively, on a line to Boston--yet just 14 and 29 miles, respectively, on a line to Providence. But F-Line has explained why there's a vital missing piece of infrastructure that will prohibit a commuter rail line from ever striking out eastbound on the I-195 corridor, despite what I presume are great population densities along a segment that encompasses East Providence, the Barrington/Warren/Bristol agglomeration, Swansea, Fall Reeve, and then NB.

 

[jklo]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Because there aren't much in the way in good jobs in Providence. Doesn't really make sense.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It continues to surprise me that Gateway and regional cities in New England aren't starting to absorb more of Boston's business overflow. Worcester, Providence, Brockton, Lowell, etc. all ought to be booming with startups and incubators that have trouble affording Boston, yet, they aren't. The likeliest conclusion is probably god-awful transportation between them and Boston. Bad transportation nullifies geographic proximity.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It continues to surprise me that Gateway and regional cities in New England aren't starting to absorb more of Boston's business overflow. Worcester, Providence, Brockton, Lowell, etc. all ought to be booming with startups and incubators that have trouble affording Boston, yet, they aren't. The likeliest conclusion is probably god-awful transportation between them and Boston. Bad transportation nullifies geographic proximity.

THIS. EXACTLY.

The opposition to this project is not because anyone thinks Fall River and New Bedford are unworthy gateway cities. God no. It's because this build runs bad, no-good, awful transit at a degree that will substantially inhibit usage. Phase II is also very bad, only marginally-better transit that will substantially inhibit usage until the state goes back and addresses all the bad capacity assumptions it made about the NEC and challenges the Army Corps' political sandbagging of double-track through the swamp. The worst thing about bad transit is that by artificially lowering demand through its brokenness, the excuse to never fix or improve it is built-in as a "feature".

How long have we been screaming to get the Silver Line fixed? Does the fact that it has such rage-inducingly poor flow out the Transitway--maybe not to a totally useless degree, but much too hobbled for for doing its job--end up compelling a fix because the Seaport is a gateway neighborhood? No...chance after chance for a "T Under D" stuffed into a transpo funding omnibus has come and gone, and we have another flare-up of rampgate every year or two to the same preordained conclusion. They're done caring once the brand-new thing is built. It takes generations to fix what they screwed up on it.

That's where this is going. RER is being actively sandbagged, so the Dorchester pinch on the OC comes off the hook as a priority fix. They've got their ready excuse to never mount Phase II, because they'd have to get the swamp EIS tossed when the Army Corps is hard to work with and have to advance NEC capacity improvements hand-in-hand with Amtrak who they don't get along with. No RER means the degree of difference between Very Broken Phase I and Mostly Broken Phase II isn't jarring enough to compel action. And when people to/from the gateway cities can't take these trains because the schedule options are too limited AND the trip times are too long AND the overcrowding from mainline to terminal is too extreme AND it costs a Zone fare much too high for all those limitations...the state, not a few posters on ArchBoston, are going to be the ones quietly alleging that the gateways weren't really geteways and we should put a halt on further investment.

Phase I is the only train service these cities are ever going to have. It's not a stepping-off point to better things. It's an end unto itself. That's the con involved by foisting bad, no-good transit service on that region in the guise of a teaser and being politically "owed". There isn't going to be a way to climb out of this uselessly bad service threshold. Everyone who claims to be listening now will be long gone by the time the advocacy comes for adding the additional frequencies needed for these lines to achieve some measure of equitable jobs access.

 

[jklo]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It continues to surprise me that Gateway and regional cities in New England aren't starting to absorb more of Boston's business overflow. Worcester, Providence, Brockton, Lowell, etc. all ought to be booming with startups and incubators that have trouble affording Boston, yet, they aren't.

The whole point of startups is to make the founder (and VCs...) rich on the backs of college kids who don't know any better. Boston has lots of college kids... Fall River does not. Going cheap on office space means like Waltham, not something like Fall River.

 

[FK4]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

THIS. EXACTLY.

The opposition to this project is not because anyone thinks Fall River and New Bedford are unworthy gateway cities. God no. It's because this build runs bad, no-good, awful transit at a degree that will substantially inhibit usage. Phase II is also very bad, only marginally-better transit that will substantially inhibit usage until the state goes back and addresses all the bad capacity assumptions it made about the NEC and challenges the Army Corps' political sandbagging of double-track through the swamp. The worst thing about bad transit is that by artificially lowering demand through its brokenness, the excuse to never fix or improve it is built-in as a "feature".

How long have we been screaming to get the Silver Line fixed? Does the fact that it has such rage-inducingly poor flow out the Transitway--maybe not to a totally useless degree, but much too hobbled for for doing its job--end up compelling a fix because the Seaport is a gateway neighborhood? No...chance after chance for a "T Under D" stuffed into a transpo funding omnibus has come and gone, and we have another flare-up of rampgate every year or two to the same preordained conclusion. They're done caring once the brand-new thing is built. It takes generations to fix what they screwed up on it.

That's where this is going. RER is being actively sandbagged, so the Dorchester pinch on the OC comes off the hook as a priority fix. They've got their ready excuse to never mount Phase II, because they'd have to get the swamp EIS tossed when the Army Corps is hard to work with and have to advance NEC capacity improvements hand-in-hand with Amtrak who they don't get along with. No RER means the degree of difference between Very Broken Phase I and Mostly Broken Phase II isn't jarring enough to compel action. And when people to/from the gateway cities can't take these trains because the schedule options are too limited AND the trip times are too long AND the overcrowding from mainline to terminal is too extreme AND it costs a Zone fare much too high for all those limitations...the state, not a few posters on ArchBoston, are going to be the ones quietly alleging that the gateways weren't really geteways and we should put a halt on further investment.

Phase I is the only train service these cities are ever going to have. It's not a stepping-off point to better things. It's an end unto itself. That's the con involved by foisting bad, no-good transit service on that region in the guise of a teaser and being politically "owed". There isn't going to be a way to climb out of this uselessly bad service threshold. Everyone who claims to be listening now will be long gone by the time the advocacy comes for adding the additional frequencies needed for these lines to achieve some measure of equitable jobs access.

For fucks sakes, man, why don’t you write an op ed in the globe? You have the knowledge to actually explain this shit to people who care. This sounds like a true disaster and essentially worst case scenario.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The whole point of startups is to make the founder (and VCs...) rich on the backs of college kids who don't know any better. Boston has lots of college kids... Fall River does not. Going cheap on office space means like Waltham, not something like Fall River.

I... didn't mention Fall River in my post...

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

For fucks sakes, man, why don’t you write an op ed in the globe? You have the knowledge to actually explain this shit to people who care. This sounds like a true disaster and essentially worst case scenario.

He should submit to the Herald News (Fall River) and the Standard-Times (New Bedford), plus Commonwealth Mag...

 

[Riverside]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Vaguely on topic: the Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts is planning a "South Coast Explorer" excursion on October 12 that will travel Middleboro-Taunton-New Bedford-Myricks-Fall River-Myricks-Attleboro-Middleboro (they have a prettier map on the page, if that didn't make sense). Obviously an opportunity to see first hand what the corridor looks like right now. Plus, looks like a pretty train.

 

[DominusNovus]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The whole point of startups is to make the founder (and VCs...) rich on the backs of college kids who don't know any better. Boston has lots of college kids... Fall River does not. Going cheap on office space means like Waltham, not something like Fall River.

Quite the indictment of the educational system, innit?

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Quite the indictment of the educational system, innit?

There are plenty of things that indict the educational system, but I think this specifically is more an indictment of "get-rich-quick" capitalism...

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

So, I've got conspiracy theories, bribes, political payoffs, and fear mongering. Can someone involve aliens (from outer space) in the mix as well?

I'm going to throw two things out there:

1) Is it possible that the driving force behind this project, as George Apley aptly stated, was FR and NB (and to some extend Taunton) are the last remaining large Eastern Mass cities without access to commuter rail, and that argument won the day through half a dozen different governors and a complete turnover of all political leadership on a state and local level since Weld's first term when this idea started gaining traction?

2) Is it also possible that some of you self style experts aren't nearly as smart as you think you are? Don't need to answer me now on that one but you might want to consider it sometime...

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

So, I've got conspiracy theories, bribes, political payoffs, and fear mongering. Can someone involve aliens (from outer space) in the mix as well?

I'm going to throw two things out there:

1) Is it possible that the driving force behind this project, as George Apley aptly stated, was FR and NB (and to some extend Taunton) are the last remaining large Eastern Mass cities without access to commuter rail, and that argument won the day through half a dozen different governors and a complete turnover of all political leadership on a state and local level since Weld's first term when this idea started gaining traction?

2) Is it also possible that some of you self style experts aren't nearly as smart as you think you are? Don't need to answer me now on that one but you might want to consider it sometime...

And now: brazen shitposting.

This is not the first time you've thrown caution to the wind and hurled a pile of poo at other posters in this very thread because Y.O.L.O. It's all right there on the previous pages. When you respond to a civil, evolving discussion with incivility and distraction...it says way more about your maturity or lackthereof than those you accuse.

If this topic is one that brings out the irrepressible temptation to behave badly, perhaps some better self-reflection is in order.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I don't know who you're talking about here, but the answer is undoubtedly yes, especially if it's me

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

And now: brazen shitposting.

This is not the first time you've thrown caution to the wind and hurled a pile of poo at other posters in this very thread because Y.O.L.O. It's all right there on the previous pages. When you respond to a civil, evolving discussion with incivility and distraction...it says way more about your maturity or lackthereof than those you accuse.

If this topic is one that brings out the irrepressible temptation to behave badly, perhaps some better self-reflection is in order.

F-Line, I love your technical knowledge along with everybody else. But you struggle somewhat in the things that go hand in hand with technical knowledge that are crucial to getting projects off the drawing board. So, maybe lower the God complex when it comes to transit a smidge and see the world for what it is. I will make this succinct for you:

1) This is being built because its the only underserved region left in Eastern Massachusetts. Its not, as posters including yourself have suggested, about payoffs, or being owed, or land speculators, or anything else. Simply put the Baker admin committed to a workaround (Phase I, running through Middleborough) that brought the previously cost prohibitive expense of extending the rail line down to a manageable billion dollars give or take. As Good Time Charlie has most likely run his last election already, there's zero political benefit here.

2) Having said all that the people of South Coast need to put up or shut up in terms of riding the damn thing. Long commutes and all. If they choose not to ride it, then that's on them. I will remind a student of transit history like yourself of the original impressions of the Silver Line. "Boondoggle". "Nobody rides it." "It goes nowhere." "Money would be better served.." Remember all that? Now these same Nostradamus wannabee's are in the paper saying the Silver Line is too crowded, we should have committed more money from the get go, everybody could see that the Seaport was going to explode in growth, blah blah blah. Lets see the actual usage of this new line before we start planning the funeral.

 

[ant8904]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I revived this thread because I really wanted to understand this project after noticing the latest transportation bill will be including the funds to do phase 1. It is weird to me that this is the one project that the state always wants to go forward - that obstacles translates to re-assurances, that progress translates to a mum responses except by other state reps. Any other transit project that encounters an obstacle - it be advocacy groups giving pressure while the state indicating reluctance.

Following this thread since reviving this has been educative. Even though I honestly cannot truly discern what is the real truth. At least I do understand a bit more that these cities are lacking any access to rail while also learning how infrequent the train will come. I honestly wasn't aware of that.

But I have to chime in that what Rover is not shitposting. Shitposting is what "armpitsofmight" used to post here - posting with a tongue-in-cheek style that is borderline violating forum decor but yet still borderline positive contribution.

Is it broaching into a bit of hostility saying the people here might be not as smart as one thinks? Yes. But your response is truckload more hostile. And honestly, I find it less contribution. I cannot determine how correct is Rover, but I can see he isn't wrong that the previous posts did post idea that it could be bribery, payoffs, and theories that ultimately is speculation at best. That is not shitposting, that is pointing a real point that merits a rebuttal based on the validity of information we actually know rather than a hostile dismiss.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Thanks ant. Well put. I'm not sure why this particular project generates so much hostility. Its not disrupting anybody (as Red-Blue would) nor is it crowding out any other projects.

I suspect the problem is people have their own projects that they'd like to see built, and will latch onto something to denigrate a project that gets off the ground earlier.

 

[ulrichomega]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm not sure why this particular project generates so much hostility. Its not disrupting anybody (as Red-Blue would) nor is it crowding out any other projects.

Sidestepping how personal things are getting, I don't agree with this. Money is a finite resource, and merely by absorbing what funds it is SCR will inevitably make more difficult projects with more potential upside. Now, I still think it's a worthy project but the fact remains that the proposed service levels will inevitably cripple the project. It doesn't matter how much the citizens of these cities want to ride the train to Boston, what matters is that they won't be able to and they'll be blamed for not doing so.

EDIT: F-Line, you mention that even Phase II is bad service. Other than the single-track section slightly limiting service why do you say that? I know you have issues with it potentially diminishing service to some NEC stations but I'm hazy on the details.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Money is a finite resource, and merely by absorbing what funds it is SCR will inevitably make more difficult projects with more potential upside.

Which ones? The transportation bond bill is borrowing $18Bn for transit, etc and SCR is $935M. Money is finite, but the actual details show a commitment to a lot more than just this one project.

....but the fact remains that the proposed service levels will inevitably cripple the project. It doesn't matter how much the citizens of these cities want to ride the train to Boston, what matters is that they won't be able to and they'll be blamed for not doing so.

This is not a fact. This is an opinion. You may or may not be correct but you and I have no idea about the project's future ridership or the feelings of the FR and NB citizenry 5-15 years from now. A lot of people on this thread are acting like challenging their doomsday predictions is akin to arguing that rain isn't wet. I'd ask that you all take some time to figure out if your predictions are doom are in fact etched in stone or just your own personal speculation.