Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Will there be any new riders for Phase 1? What trains are running between Taunton and Fall River/New Bedford? Until Phase 2, the answer to that will be none.

[edit]

Okay, read the article, now I understand better. Phase 1 is a rail connection from Boston via Taunton, but using an extension from Midleborough, whereas Phase 2 changes the connection to one made via Stoughton (and is electrified!).
 
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

34f34f said:
Unfortunately this was posted April 2, not April 1: "THE STATE’S TOP ENVIRONMENTAL OFFICIAL on Monday gave the green light to a project that would phase in rail service from Boston to New Bedford and Fall River, with the first phase launching in 2022."



Holy cost-per-rider!
Phase 1: $935 mil for 1600 riders = $584,000 per rider
Phase 1+2: $3.3 bil for 3900 riders = $846,000 per rider
BUT this will actually reduce bus users by 800, so the net new riders is only 3100
Phase 1+2 minus mode shifters: $3.3 bil for 3100 = $1,064,500 per new rider

Did I do this right?
EDIT: no, I didn't--the 1600 estimate is for 2030, which is after Phase 2, not Phase 1. So there will be even fewer new riders for Phase 1, making the cost per rider even higher than I stated above.
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My thoughts:

Correct me if I'm wrong in your calculations, but you seem to be equating the one time cost of the extension (phase I for example) with the ridership in one year's time (1600 in 2030). Isn't that an apples and oranges comparison? As in you'd have to put the on time cost up against the lifetime ridership of the transit line, say it runs for 30 years before it needs significant work.

Now mind you I'm not saying don't balk at the price tag, but I see this a lot especially in terms of business tax breaks equated to jobs created, which never take into account the jobs created last more than one year.

EDIT: Having grown up in the area and driving down there occasionally, I think the priority should be extending service to the Cotley Junction in Taunton near the mall and the junction of 24 and 140. That's a pretty easy drive up from the North End of Fall River and will give those people a decent commuter option. Same thing with the New Bedford with the drive up 140.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Rover said:
...say it runs for 30 years before it needs significant work.
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You are right, but the numbers get (to me) even more depressing if you put a massive number like 100 years. Even then it makes no sense. With 1,000 years it enters the ballpark of reasonable (!). $3 Billion!.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I hope no one minds the necro, in the General MBTA thread, I see they are adding another $825 million for SCR. But after all these years, I still don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong, every other rail project seems to be an uphill battle - commuter rail electrification, BLX , Red-Blue Connector, North-South Rail Connector - all of them have advocacy groups and press continually pushing for these projects and it continually needs constant vigilance to make sure funds stay earmarked for even a study much less the later stages.

Then there's South Coast Rail, the Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail. I rarely see positive press on the project. Online comments keeps talking about how it's a waste of money even in railfan circles. I cannot find a single advocacy group pushing for the project. The last comments on this thread is talking about how much it costs per passenger. Yet this project is full steam ahead. Why?

And part of the confusion for me as I think about this is even the politics doesn't make sense to me. Would Baker gain that much more voters building this thing versus pushing for BLX? If it more about the state reps, my understanding the state reps from the North Shore also wants BLX too. Where is this political willpower coming from when I can't find any advocacy groups or positive press?

Or maybe I'm just in a bubble. But that's why I am asking this.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It has support in the communities of Fall River and new Bedford, and especially by the mayor's of those two cities. Economically they are both struggling somewhat and a lot of hope has been pegged on a good South coast rail revitalizing these "long neglected eastern Massachusetts towns". A lot of the residents there feel overlooked by the state government and feel that all the budget is spent on Boston metro and nowhere else. It's also an important distinction that SCR provides new transit opportunities for poorer communities that currently have little to no transit connections at all. All the other projects you reference are improvements to areas already served by transit of some form, and in general improvements to higher income areas already served by transit. So from a political standpoint it looks good that they're spending transportation money on the rest of the Commonwealth, not just on Boston. At the end of the day, you need to win more than just Boston to win an election.

Secondly, from a technical standpoint South Coast Rail benefits from the fact it can be built with almost no construction impacts to existing service. A lot of politicians are still scarred from the Big Dig era and know the discontent that comes with disruptive projects of that scale. South Coast Rail construction impacts a couple of small freight lines and a few grade crossings and bridges. The only other major opposition from construction impacts is the traditional NIMBY, loud trains bad, not near my house, too much traffic will be going to the station, etc, type.

Lastly, it's been promised to these two communities for decades, much like GLX. A politician that can claim to have delivered a promise looks good. As much as NSRL, BLX, BL/RL are great projects, no politicians have fully committed to them yet in the same way.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

HelloBoston nailed it pretty well. Not to take anything away from the other projects like BLX which are worthwhile, but that's a "you get faster transit with a subway vs commuter rail" improvement instead of "you get transit for the 1st time in 60? years".

I also wouldn't include NSRL in with any of these other projects. That's going to involve massive federal aide and logistical issues galore. This is upgrading an existing right of way.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Building uselessly sparse service at uselessly long schedules on a hack alternative that holds the state to no commitment to fix the brokenness of the service...and, in fact, offers a most convenient escape route for never ever fixing it...is not an economic opportunity. It is very nearly useless for meaningful jobs access to Boston Metro at the schedules proposed, and now chasing a fast-dwindling niche that can tolerate the downsides.

I will never for the life of me understand why frequencies matter to most everyone in the state except this South Coast political constituency, who are just "owed" something even when that something ends up an overly expensive pile of nothing. I guess it's apparently that hard to dislodge a lifelong belief in magic unicorn farts. I've said it before: the "owed to us" crowd who were so sanctimonious about having something/anything are going to ruefully regret that they paid no attention to the service plan all these years when the ribbon cutting ceremonies for steel-and-concrete edifices are done and they realize there's little-to-nothing here they can actually use.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm getting a strong whiff of classism out of several posters, whether that's intentional or not. That's unfortunate. As in the only reason for the locals to press for service is that they're "owed" something. I'm not aware of any transit project that worked perfectly from design to implementation and never got tweaked or updated along the way, so that's a straw man argument.

Regarding schedules and commute times, a quick look at the commuter rail schedule shows similar commuting times at the end of the line for Fitchburg, Worcester, etc. If the money is good enough, you'll do the commute. Hell, I live in Arlington and it takes me an hour to get to work from 10 miles away.

Lastly, I'd ask people to consider the bigger picture here. The state has a vested interest in expanding the reach of transit to a wider area. There's too many people crowded into too little space, so aside from a massive building effort in the inner suburbs (HA!) the only other option is to run rail to an underserved area. Not every person is boarding at the end of the line. People from north Fall River or north New Bedford have a straight shot up the highway to the Taunton station. People in Taunton now have better access as well, etc. That's a decent sized population that's now coming on line. No, we don't want to cancel every other project to do this one, but it seems worthwhile for everybody not just the people who live down there.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

F-Line to Dudley said:
Building uselessly sparse service at uselessly long schedules on a hack alternative that holds the state to no commitment to fix the brokenness of the service...and, in fact, offers a most convenient escape route for never ever fixing it...is not an economic opportunity. It is very nearly useless for meaningful jobs access to Boston Metro at the schedules proposed, and now chasing a fast-dwindling niche that can tolerate the downsides.

I will never for the life of me understand why frequencies matter to most everyone in the state except this South Coast political constituency, who are just "owed" something even when that something ends up an overly expensive pile of nothing. I guess it's apparently that hard to dislodge a lifelong belief in magic unicorn farts. I've said it before: the "owed to us" crowd who were so sanctimonious about having something/anything are going to ruefully regret that they paid no attention to the service plan all these years when the ribbon cutting ceremonies for steel-and-concrete edifices are done and they realize there's little-to-nothing here they can actually use.
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So true! I was a HUGE fan of Greenbush rail restoration and even moved to Scituate BEFORE it was completed. The rail was a big factor in moving to this area.

However, I didn't realize the single track mainline constraint of the Old Colony lines and the crappy and inadequate schedule for Greenbush that would be implemented. It's better than driving during rush-hour commutes, but I think it fails as a useful alternative to driving off-peak schedules. The massive parking lots and infrastructure created on the Greenbush line was money that was somewhat wasted because of frequency and schedule issues.

I see the SAME thing happening with South Coast rail to a greater extent. The travel times and frequency proposed seems like it might potentially work for peak commuting, but even that's a stretch. I'm a huge fan of South Coast rail restoration, but I think it should be the Electric option with a faster and shorter connection to the Providence main line. This is the PERFECT opportunity to show that EMUs with good frequency can be a great solution for the regional transportation of Boston with or without a NS rail link.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

There's 5 of us involved in this discussion so far, Rover. Given that 2 are neutral-to-positive on SCR. Process of elimination means I have to respond that I don't see the classism when I necro'ed this thread.

It is a rational question to ask when you know this project is estimated to cost $3 Billion, yet this is the one transit project that I don't see foot dragging from the state. Other projects keep getting press and advocacy groups continually pushing for the project and outcries when the state tries to quietly do things like not include funding for studies or release results with questionable numbers.

But this one, I just don't see them. I don't see positive comments on UHub or Reddit (or a lot here). I can look up and find a grassroots Facebook group tracking GLX or advocating BLX but the best I can find for SCR is the FB page run by the state.

SCR seems to have real desire from the state, but I can't see any grassroots advocacy or positive chatter (though I can concede that lurking on Reddit, UHub, and certain FB group could be a bubble - But then they should still exist on the internet somewhere, and would be able to read about them when the news talk about public meetings). Meanwhile the projects that has advocacy (that I do see) is getting a snail's pace traction at best.

Remember, for the $3 Billion that is the SCR estimation now. GLX rebid ~$1 billion (and I think it is most of worked despite already spending ~$1 Billion before), BLX last estimate is $900 Million, and Red-Blue Connector is latest estimate at $750 million. And still have $350 million to spare.
 
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The push for SCR feels totally political -- buy $3 Billion in political capital in the South Coast Region (look what we are doing for you!).

It is clearly not about $ per transit passenger (or general commuter, since transit benefits drivers too) affected. If it were, there would be shovels in the ground already on the Red-Blue Connector.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

ant8904 said:
There's 5 of us involved in this discussion so far, Rover. Given that 2 are neutral-to-positive on SCR. Process of elimination means I have to respond that I don't see the classism when I necro'ed this thread.

It is a rational question to ask when you know this project is estimated to cost $3 Billion, yet this is the one transit project that I don't see foot dragging from the state. Other projects keep getting press and advocacy groups continually pushing for the project and outcries when the state tries to quietly do things like not include funding for studies or release results with questionable numbers.

But this one, I just don't see them. I don't see positive comments on UHub or Reddit (or a lot here). I can look up and find a grassroots Facebook group tracking GLX or advocating BLX but the best I can find for SCR is the FB page run by the state.

SCR seems to have real desire from the state, but I can't see any grassroots advocacy or positive chatter (though I can concede that lurking on Reddit, UHub, and certain FB group could be a bubble - But then they should still exist on the internet somewhere, and would be able to read about them when the news talk about public meetings). Meanwhile the projects that has advocacy (that I do see) is getting a snail's pace traction at best.

Remember, for the $3 Billion that is the SCR estimation now. GLX rebid ~$1 billion (and I think it is most of worked despite already spending ~$1 Billion before), BLX last estimate is $900 Million, and Red-Blue Connector is latest estimate at $750 million. And still have $350 million to spare.
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I'm not sure that whoever has the loudest advocacy group is the best way to measure a project. Pure speculation on my part but the politically connected people in and near Boston are probably better at playing that game, particularly in regards to public transit, than those who live 60 miles away.

Next, the project has been talked about at least since Weld got elected, which was 1990. If that's not foot dragging, I'm not sure what is.

Finally, I'll come back to it again. Nobody that I'm aware of is saying that this project should crowd out any others. However logistically it seems less complicated and disruptive than Red-Blue or BLX as its using (for Phase I) existing tracks. Lets say ridership issues are indeed a problem. Then don't build Phase II as the residents of "Southcoast" are going to have to put up or shut up, as anybody does in a rail expansion (the aforementioned Greenbush for example). But, Red-Blue, BLX, GLX, etc are all projects designed to make commuting more convenient for people who already have public transit options. That's not the case for this project and it seems worth the $935M they're spending on Phase I.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I think the bigger issue is that even at the current price tag it's still being half-assed. Phase I means horrible travel times and bottlenecking through the OC, and is a good way to kill the ridership that the project could get if it were done properly. If they build Phase I they don't have to build Phase II once the ridership that they purposefully crippled doesn't appear.

The proper solution is to not overcrowd the already crowded OC line with two more lines (five lines going through a single track!). The proper solution is to give transit access to these communities that desperately need it. Phase II needs to be Phase I, and Phase I needs to either be built later as a capacity-booster or not at all.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

This project is at the front of the line for entirely political reasons.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

ulrichomega said:
The proper solution is to not overcrowd the already crowded OC line with two more lines (five lines going through a single track!). The proper solution is to give transit access to these communities that desperately need it. Phase II needs to be Phase I, and Phase I needs to either be built later as a capacity-booster or not at all.
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Exactly! The same negative statements are used for OC lines like Greenbush. The number of riders never appeared and it's a failure in many people's minds. However, the MBTA crippled it from the VERY start! ........and now you are adding 2 more lines on the SINGLE track. Insanity. At the VERY least, this should have been an opportunity to double track the ENTIRE OC main line. Then, I "might" be a little more in favor........but it's still a crazy amount of travel time on this route.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Java King said:
Exactly! The same negative statements are used for OC lines like Greenbush. The number of riders never appeared and it's a failure in many people's minds. However, the MBTA crippled it from the VERY start! ........and now you are adding 2 more lines on the SINGLE track. Insanity. At the VERY least, this should have been an opportunity to double track the ENTIRE OC main line. Then, I "might" be a little more in favor........but it's still a crazy amount of travel time on this route.
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Aren't they running a continuation of the Middleborough bound trains to FR and NB more or less, instead of adding more trains on top of what the tracks are already being used for?

Coyote137 said:
This project is at the front of the line for entirely political reasons.
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I'm not sure I understand the logic being applied here. Charlie Baker is in his early 60's and may or may not run for re-election again and 3 terms in a row is unprecedented I believe. What's the political gain to be achieved? He'll most likely be out of office before Phase I is done, and he'll certainly be gone before Phase II ever came to fruition. Same thing with any local yokel politician from the South Coast who's currently in office.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Pure speculation on my part but the politically connected people in and near Boston are probably better at playing that game, particularly in regards to public transit, than those who live 60 miles away.
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I want to quote this line that there's a bit of a contradiction the "politically connected" are "better at playing that game" meanwhile SCR is the project that is moving forward.

I'm not sure I understand the logic being applied here. Charlie Baker is in his early 60's and may or may not run for re-election again and 3 terms in a row is unprecedented I believe. What's the political gain to be achieved? He'll most likely be out of office before Phase I is done, and he'll certainly be gone before Phase II ever came to fruition. Same thing with any local yokel politician from the South Coast who's currently in office.
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Well that's the rub I'm trying to express. As you should notice, a lot responses here are negative - ...on archboston, probably one of the most train-wanting website on the internet. But this is the one project you can actually find dissension. But it's not just here, same goes when I read discussion on UHub, Reddit, or Boston Globe (the Herald too, but they hate everything). Meanwhile while I can find grassroots Facebook groups for projects like GLX, BLX, or Red-Blue (I even found a dying Arborway group), not so much for SCR (unless you count the state run page). And same goes with the press and advocacy groups.

So the projects that have all kinds of press and political groups pushing for certain projects struggle to even keep studies stay properly funded (and neutral). But the one transit project that the press and various groups are either quiet to even hostile, that's the project that when it hits a speedbump, that's the project that makes state gives responses like they will overcome the issue rather than start to pull out and have to be rescued the sheer outcries of various groups.

So one would think that it has to be political. Like votes for Baker or the "yokel politicians" in office as you said. But then since the political gains are so far removed. That also doesn't make sense.

So why is this the one project the State wants so much?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Figure someone with real estate investments near the stops bribed the right people to get SCR done. That's why the Big Dig happened and why GLX eventually happened, and why something like Red-Blue likely won't.

SCR is actually worse than useless if you take into consideration that they might have to ditch the Needham line because of a space crunch at South Station.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

jklo said:
Figure someone with real estate investments near the stops bribed the right people to get SCR done. That's why the Big Dig happened and why GLX eventually happened, and why something like Red-Blue likely won't.

SCR is actually worse than useless if you take into consideration that they might have to ditch the Needham line because of a space crunch at South Station.
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Couldn’t those with property along Red or Blue do the same? Suffolk Downs redevelopment certainly would benefit from Red-Blue.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

jklo said:
Figure someone with real estate investments near the stops bribed the right people to get SCR done. That's why the Big Dig happened and why GLX eventually happened, and why something like Red-Blue likely won't.

SCR is actually worse than useless if you take into consideration that they might have to ditch the Needham line because of a space crunch at South Station.
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Not really ditch. The Orange Line will cover the south and Green Line the north. Only Hersey is SOOL. And that will happen eventually to accomidate Amtrak increases.
 
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