Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[FK4]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lrfox, you work in the Lindemann so let's not argue. But, you are just citing your own personal viewpoints as justification. That's a problem. You cant just say that since you live in the region and have certain opinions on what ride time is acceptable or not that those opinions are shared by all. Yes, collecting data is difficult. No, that doesn't mean we should build huge infrastructure projects without trying to collect as much data as possible. And lastly, I wasnt talking about the time it takes to pay for parking, but the cost. Cost affects most people's decisions on how theyre going to commute. Parking + rail might be more expensive than many people are willing to pay. But I dont have the numbers. SHOW ME THE NUMBERS, MASS.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I am also done debating, since apparently you live in this region, want this train, and are ok with blurring the facts with anecdotal evidence as long as it supports your personalized viewpoint on transportation options.

Uhh... What? I literally said I don't disagree with any of the facts presented, nor do I think "this train" (read: the multi-billion dollar options proposed) is remotely feasible as-is. I think the region deserves a good rail connection (as do many opponents of the SCR project), but I don't think THIS proposal is a good rail connection, nor do I think it deserves to be given the green light.

I'm also not "blurring the facts." My entire gripe is with the notion that the proposed commute time- 95-100 minutes- is going to somehow be a deterrent to riders in the South Coast. There are no facts to debate there. You (and others) think it's going to be a problem (opinion), and I don't. Sure, some of my argument is anecdotal as someone who makes the commute daily through various means (car, rail, and bus); but I also cited existing timetables for the bus to/from New Bedford which takes longer than the proposed train AND has strong ridership.

It's around 30 minutes (or more) from much of Fall River and New Bedford to Middleborough/Lakeville. That's a fact. I'm not sure why you bolded it

Bolded = that's right, YOU. These are your personal opinions and perhaps those people you talk to, who think like you.

All opinions on whether or not the estimated trip time will deter riders are just that- opinions. Yours and mine. I also backed it up with an example of the existing service which is worse (not an opinion) and still draws good ridership. If you want to debate that even full trains wouldn't justify a $3 billion dollar price tag, I'd agree. I'm just saying that the trip time isn't the turnoff you think it is. It's currently worse and people still do it.

Ever hear of how the recent election happened?

What?

What you think about the commute actually says nothing about what most people think.

Again, it's not a difficult connection to make. 95-100 minutes isn't ideal to most people. However, it's better than the status quo. It stands to reason that most people would probably prefer the improved service of 95-100 minutes over the existing means of transit which is longer, less reliable, and inconsistent. It's really not a big leap.

If I lived on the South Coast (which I dont, because I prefer to not have to deal with this, and it's an ongoing issue as I contemplate whether I ever want to leave the city - for somewhere outside - and lose an easy commute but gain some breathing space), I would be of your opinion, but I recognize that my views make sense to me but I have zero idea of whether they make sense to other people, or more importantly, to enough people to make a big commuter project worthwhile.

Again, What?

Yes - this stuff is hard to study. That doesnt justify unilaterally deciding to throw evidence to the winds and embark on a project without researching it.

What evidence am I supposed to have unilaterally thrown to the winds? Because I said, "I think ridership estimates are low"? It's an opinion based on experience and comparison to alternative methods of transportation between the same two points. I could be right, I could be wrong; but I never even hinted that my opinion is justification for proceeding with the project as-is. Also, when did I say we should embark on this project without researching it?

I will end by clarifying that I wasnt talking about the time it takes to pay for parking, but the cost. Commuting costs are significant for people whether they drive or ride, and factor into their decisionmaking on what mode of transportation theyre going to use.

Ok. But driving into the city is still more expensive than the train if you don't have free parking (and arguably more expensive regardless- there are tons of automobile ownership/operation cost estimates that would cite +/- 100 miles r/t daily is exceedingly expensive). Dattco is $28 r/t between New Bedford and Boston. Peter Pan can cost over $30 r/t between Boston and Fall River. Commuter rail (inc. $4 for parking- what it costs at Middleboro/Lakeville) will almost certainly be cheaper (assuming FR/NB are zone 9). Again very little changes. In fact, when you factor in the reliability and speed of the CR vs. the existing bus service, it's not a difficult bet to assume people will pick the faster, more reliable, more comfortable service as long as costs are comparable.

You may prefer the option (as would I) of riding the train over sitting in a parking lot every morning. Many people wouldnt and would choose to drive their car instead. I dont know how many of each there are, but neither do you. Again, show me the numbers, show me the numbers, show me the numbers.

There are always going to be people who choose to drive. I don't know how many of each there are either. I'm just pointing out that based on the fact that even at 90-100 minutes this service is still faster than the existing methods of transit (that is a fact and there are numbers in the schedules to back it up) AND more comfortable, reliable, it's not going to be as unappealing to many locals as it is to people who live closer to Boston and balk at the idea of such a long commute. I also think that for that same reason (and the fact that the last estimates I've seen are pretty old- the region has grown and the commuting patterns have shifted a bit), the ridership estimates are a bit low. Do I think that's good enough to fund a $3 billion rail project? Not in infinity bajillion gazillion years. But it's one element of this discussion that I find to be debatable.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Not at all the case- don't lump me into that category. I simply have no argument to other points mentioned. You know infinitely more than I do regarding the actual logistics of making a project of this magnitude happen. I don't have anything to dispute what you've argued time and again on this thread. As far as I'm concerned, you're right. If you're not, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Bull. The fact that this project induces real no-foolin' transit loss on either proposed alignment to multiple communities with existing service has been immaculately documented. Yet, if it's not explained for the 437th time in the exact post quoted in someone's reply it disappears into a wormhole as if it never existed. By saying you have no argument to other points mentioned prior, you are staking your entire "something > 0" argument for South Coast service of any kind to advocacy that is A-OK to rob somebody else's transit frequencies so you get yours. Canton, Stoughton get rush-hour frequencies lopped in half, Westwood Landing lopped by a third...A-OK because I get something. Middleboro loses its station entirely, schedule spacing wrecked on 3 Old Colony lines that currently pump in 19,000 and counting daily riders...A-OK because I get something.

This is quite literally what that advocacy is arguing through omission.

I also think you (and others) who have posted about the price are spot on. It's beyond unacceptable. I have no counterpoint, nor do I think it's OK because "I got mine." As much as I want a rail connection to the South Coast (but particularly Taunton which is unfortunate to have to be part of this), the cost is prohibitive. There are also other projects that are more beneficial to the Commonwealth (i.e. Red/Blue Connector, Blue Line to Lynn, NSRL, etc.) and I don't agree with "kneecapping" other communities for the sake of a $3 billion rail connection to FR/NB.

Then why is this never said unless the direct previous quoted post re-states those damning facts for the record for the umpteenth time. What the hell were the arguments on the previous 2 pages even about, willfully absent these facts? A circle jerk of "NO U!"...that's what.

The facts haven't disappeared. The only thing I vehemently disagree with is the notion that the trip time would be a prohibitive factor to potential riders. It wouldn't. even at 95-100 minutes it's an improvement over the existing bus service which is has solid ridership. CR is also more reliable (and a more pleasant experience) than the existing bus service- both of which are appealing factors to new riders. That certainly doesn't change anything about the points made above. However, it's one of the few arguments that gets rehashed here that really doesn't hold any weight with people who have much experience commuting from that region.

And the fact that you and a couple others harp on this again and again in omission of the more damning facts is disingenuous as hell. The project killer above all project killers is the fact that Stoughton Electric or M'boro Alt. take transit away from transit-served communities. Full-stop. Do not pass go. Do not rationalize travel times. Do not rationalize "at least it's something..." No...a polite society does not inflict acute and immediate pain on one region by unilaterally removing their public service so another region can "at least it's something..." Nor does a representative government like the Commonwealth have the political means to fuck over constituent blocs like the whole fucking South Shore on a whim. Everybody falling over themselves today to pamper South Coast swing votes is going to abandon ship when 6 Senate districts and 15+ House districts pull out the prison shanks and join Sen. Pacheco's threatened lawsuit.

Sorry...leaving the gigantic fucking elephant in the room unsaid time and again is VERY MUCH implicitly saying "fuck the South Shore / fuck the Route 138 corridor; I got mine."

If you want to convince one of the "I've got mine" folks that South Coast Rail is a failure, drop the "but it's a 95-100 minute trip!" pitch because that doesn't sound nearly as bad to them as it does to you.

Watch the elephant vanish! The ONLY thing discussed on the last page is "95-100 minute trip!"..."95-100 minute trip!"..."95-100 minute trip!" Not a single word said about the transit loss you retroactively claim is a nonstarter. It's 95-100 minutes in point-counterpoint vacuum...until it's about Boston's full employment...then until it's about stereotyping activists. He who chooses the quote tag contents in a reply chooses the reality!


Fucking hell...and people wonder why some posters need a mental health break from AB. Have at it, guys...it's a post-fact world we now live in. Short attention-span theatre FTW!

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Bull. The fact that this project induces real no-foolin' transit loss on either proposed alignment to multiple communities with existing service has been immaculately documented. Yet, if it's not explained for the 437th time in the exact post quoted in someone's reply it disappears into a wormhole as if it never existed. By saying you have no argument to other points mentioned prior, you are staking your entire "something > 0" argument for South Coast service of any kind to advocacy that is A-OK to rob somebody else's transit frequencies so you get yours. Canton, Stoughton get rush-hour frequencies lopped in half, Westwood Landing lopped by a third...A-OK because I get something. Middleboro loses its station entirely, schedule spacing wrecked on 3 Old Colony lines that currently pump in 19,000 and counting daily riders...A-OK because I get something.

This is quite literally what that advocacy is arguing through omission.



Then why is this never said unless the direct previous quoted post re-states those damning facts for the record for the umpteenth time. What the hell were the arguments on the previous 2 pages even about, willfully absent these facts? A circle jerk of "NO U!"...that's what.



And the fact that you and a couple others harp on this again and again in omission of the more damning facts is disingenuous as hell. The project killer above all project killers is the fact that Stoughton Electric or M'boro Alt. take transit away from transit-served communities. Full-stop. Do not pass go. Do not rationalize travel times. Do not rationalize "at least it's something..." No...a polite society does not inflict acute and immediate pain on one region by unilaterally removing their public service so another region can "at least it's something..." Nor does a representative government like the Commonwealth have the political means to fuck over constituent blocs like the whole fucking South Shore on a whim. Everybody falling over themselves today to pamper South Coast swing votes is going to abandon ship when 6 Senate districts and 15+ House districts pull out the prison shanks and join Sen. Pacheco's threatened lawsuit.

Sorry...leaving the gigantic fucking elephant in the room unsaid time and again is VERY MUCH implicitly saying "fuck the South Shore / fuck the Route 138 corridor; I got mine."



Watch the elephant vanish! The ONLY thing discussed on the last page is "95-100 minute trip!"..."95-100 minute trip!"..."95-100 minute trip!" Not a single word said about the transit loss you retroactively claim is a nonstarter. It's 95-100 minutes in point-counterpoint vacuum...until it's about Boston's full employment...then until it's about stereotyping activists. He who chooses the quote tag contents in a reply chooses the reality!


Fucking hell...and people wonder why some posters need a mental health break from AB. Have at it, guys...it's a post-fact world we now live in. Short attention-span theatre FTW!

Maybe take another?

I'm not in favor of the proposal (either one). Period. My contention of the "95-100 minute trip" point is not an argument in favor of South Coast Rail. As you pointed out, there are ($)3 Billion perfectly valid arguments against South Coast Rail (you've listed them repeatedly and I agree with almost every reason you've cited as to why it's a terrible idea to even continue to entertain the proposal as-is). The trip time isn't one of the better ones.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Has anybody ever been in a meeting with the guy who has good knowledge but he just goes on...and on....and on....and on...until by the time he makes a salient point everyone is the room has fallen asleep or is thinking about what to have for lunch?

F-Line, we all appreciate the technical knowledge, but have you ever heard the expression cut to the quick already?

This is rich coming after 2500 words in 4 days on the subject.

1) Service levels. Certainly for the Taunton extension if the Middleborough train gets you to SS in a little under an hour, why would an extra 10 miles take and extra 42 minutes? Also in terms of frequencies and needing extra trains, aren't we merely running the train that stops in Middleborough one more stop further down the line?

No...there are 2 branches. This is not like a linear extension from Middleboro to Buzzards Bay +15 minutes extra where the same schedule would be run at same intervals extra distance, with only change being terminal departure times rejiggered to put the headways back in prior balance. To serve both Fall River AND New Bedford requires another completely different schedule slate of 10 (if it's truly that high) totally new trains that have to be shivved onto an Old Colony main that already juggles 3 balanced schedules. As well as totally new backfill trains for re-balancing headways to the other city that is indeed the linear extension of the existing M'boro schedule, because an extra +40 minutes of running time gaps the headways out far greater than recalibrated departure times can fix.

The M'boro Alt. was eliminated the first time around because it couldn't swing it without transit loss either cutting one or more of Greenbush or Plymouth's schedules to vulture trains or introducing so many headway hiccups to all 3 lines from force-fitting new/extended 1:30+ schedules amongst existing 60-minute schedules that the gaps and bunching variability would upend rush hour transit across the South Shore.

This is 15-years-old news. That information didn't disappear beyond the black hole's event horizon because some people's attention spans have shorter event horizons than others.

Next, where does it say they're definitely relocating from Cotley Junction under this new plan to a remote spot on the Berkeley line? First I've heard of this and if true makes no sense, but again is that your speculation or part of an official plan somewhere?

It's on the state's own damn PowerPoint slides reprinted in countless media stories over the last week. Taunton Depot: currently located NORTH of Cotley on Mozzone Blvd. Must be relocated SOUTH of Cotley on an empty lot at end of Industrial Dr. Berkley town line is approx. 700 ft. away on other side of tracks, with houses clustering on Plain St. both sides of the town line.

Do you not read your own local papers before spewing 2500 words in 4 days of so-called local perspective? Clearly because that exact PDF was not linked in each and every prior post, it's "speculation". Jesus Christ.

Finally for this section, why in God's name would people stop using the Middleborough station, a 50% drop in your opinion, if it got moved up a quarter mile? That makes no sense, and again is this purely your speculation? Sure sounds like it. All of your fear mongering about lower ridership, which doesn't compute if we're running the same train that stops in Middleborough for one extra stop initially, doesn't seem to have any basis anywhere outside of your head although kudos for burying that fact in some flowery language.

It doesn't matter that your own local papers are reporting that Towns of Middleboro and Lakeville were blindsided by this. It doesn't matter that the documentation for both the first rejection of the SCR M'boro Alternative and the original early-90's station siting documentation that chose the current station location each cited land and road access inadequacies in their rejections of the downtown location. Or that projected ridership differences between locations were calculated back then. Or that those ridership differences calculated back then are amplified today by the much greater-than-predicted success of the TOD around the current station. Or that the imbalance in train frequencies (gaps & bunching) required to run 2 branches out of here isn't going to mess things up further.

No, it's all Internet Asshole speculation and "NO U!" because every single post doesn't have a cumulative bibliographic citation of all material previously covered and readily available on Google. Which by your own admission you wouldn't read anyway because "cut to the chase"...so, also, apparently an eye-of-beholder matter of whose 2500 words of posting create the reality. But, you know...you managed to work in a personal attack, so Y.O.L.O. (shrug)

Cost issues: Your plan to re-ignite the Stoughton alternative revolves around one critical component, which I'll call F-Line's Magic Wand. If you could wave that and get rid of local opposition, armed with environmental rulings in its pocket, to get rid of the mitigation through Bigfoot's home in the swamp and cut a billion dollars off the project, sign me up! But, one has to wonder why you haven't deployed your magical powers at an earlier date... In the meantime, lets deal with reality as we know it.

Which is...rob from the South Shore so you get a thing. Glad we've cleared that up about a few folks who doth protest a bit much in this thread without saying what they truly mean.

Once again, if you're running the same train that now stops in Middleborough another stop, why do we need to start double tracking the line? ITS THE SAME TRAIN. Does it currently levitate to get to South Station?

No, you are not running the SAME TRAIN to TWO DIFFERENT PLACES. Branching means two different places.

branch
bran(t)SH/

noun
1. a part of a tree that grows out from the trunk or from a bough.
synonyms: bough, limb, arm, offshoot
"the branches of a tree"

verb
1. (of a road or path) divide into one or more subdivisions.
synonyms: fork, bifurcate, divide, subdivide, split

Levitation technology actually exists in the lab. On-the-fly duplication/de-duplication technology does not.

Previous 35 page bleatings being ignored: As we've already covered, some of you are really, really long winded and have a bias against the project that can't be overcome by any logic. Also, a lot of the previous whining was over the ridiculously expensive Stoughton alternative, and I'm not sure any of the advocates of the Middleborough alternative were in favor of that plan given the cost. Beyond that, the old plans poo-poohing Middleborough extension seemed in many ways to fit the behest of the Devalue Patrick administration, who although I'm a pretty liberal guy myself I would not trust any more than a vampire giving me a bj.

Reaffirmed: whose 2500 words set the reality for all is eye-of-beholder. I solemnly affirm to to zero retention of all facts empirically cited from official sources about transit loss, broken scheduling, and broken project process because it's all whining and pooh-poohing to me. As opposed to my own fervently held opinion...which I will not substantiate but is Truth because reasons.

Gotcha.

I'll conclude with this thought. Often times opponents would like to stereotype activists with a one size fits all label. Lets say tribalism exists. BUT, lets say there's a 3rd possibility to blow your mind. Maybe people are looking for a cost effective alternative that's a win-win for everyone. Underserved region gets access to better paying jobs so that they need not relocate closer to the city, AND Boston which is currently reaching peak employment gets a fresh influx of workers thereby mitigating cost increases.

Where is the win-win in robbing from another region's existing jobs access to give your region access? Cite your own facts backing that up as 'Just and True'. Cite a governing mechanism where that will actually bring about the desired result in a Commonwealth where...oh...let's say tribalism quite very much exists in electoral politics. As well as amongst tribes that are currently ratified members of the MBTA district vs. tribes that are not.

Don't be bashful. Blow our minds with that third win-win possibility that gives everyone access to Boston employment and takes no employment access away from anyone who's already got it. I'm a patient guy if it takes another 2500 words to explain that one.

Reminds me of if you are opposed to a casino, its automatically assumed you want to tell people what to do, instead of a 3rd option which is you don't care if people blow their paychecks at these things, but they often turn out to be a bad deal as local pols too easily give away the store over time whenever the casino renegs on its initial promises. People have a variety of reasons for wanting a South Coast rail extension. I'm cautiously optimistic that our voices are starting to be heard beyond the pandering of the previous governor.

A metaphor absolutely no one has dangled in this thread until now. Hence, it was always used in this thread as a crutch of the whiners. Because haters and Y.O.L.O.


-----

Somebody's already done a document dump on the RR.net SCR thread of new NOPC document releases to chew on. I'll be chiming in there about any new info that comes to light. This apparently isn't a thread for productively hashing out current events, information, facts in evidence, yada-yada.

Until next time I ill-advisedly poke head out of the doom bunker...toodles, ladies and gents.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lets see if we can bring this thing in for a landing....

Starting with what we agree on! FK4 says we need new numbers. I think we're all completely on board with this. New estimates on costs and ridership are a must. Next, there's also consensus that the old 2bn (now 3.4Bn) cost to run the rail to the South coast via Stoughton, Middleborough, or the moon is too much for any of us. At this point, there is no need for us to quarrel on these two issues. Anybody who continues to do so either loves straw man arguments, likes long winded posts, or their girlfriend banged someone from the South Coast years back and this is their attempt at revenge.

But, here's something I have reconsidered after a month of discussion and it wasn't from our resident Tolstoy. Originally my preference was to run the line down to one city from the get go, and then do the other later if possible. My new thoughts are as follows:

Phase I: Middleborough to Taunton. 10 miles of track upgrade from new station in Middleborough to new station at Cotley off highway. Few grade crossings as it mostly runs through woods and under 24. Direct highway connection from both FR and NB. Busses should be run from local stations timed to meet end of rail line. No extra capacity needed, nobody getting their schedule screwed further up track. Its the same train that stops in Middleborough starting 10 minutes earlier in Taunton. Can't see what the controversy is here.

Phase II: This gets more controversial but here goes. In order to avoid track capacity issues at this time, one city or the other needs to be chosen to extend the line to first. That would be a metric based on ridership projections and cost. Distance is about the same but one track could be in worse condition, more crossings, etc. Whoever gives more benefit for the buck gets extension first provided ridership projections and cost balance out. That leaves...

Phase III: City that missed out on Phase II has a tougher road, because here's where capacity issues from running extra trains come into play. Its possible ridership goes gangbusters and its worth it. Its also possible bus connection is the way to go. IMHO its a mistake to try and do this all at once, but one city is going to have a longer wait than the other, or will have to make due with a bus connection for longer.

Now I will sit back and wait for another novel with the recurring theme over 20,000 words that those of us in favor of this approach just want to screw commuters in the RT 138 corridor.

 

[The EGE]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

And you still haven't explained how you're going to avoid screwing the current Middleborough/Lakeville station - which currently has hundreds of units of housing directly around it. Any possible service through Middleborough is going to involve reducing or eliminating service to one of the best examples of successful TOD in the entire state. That alone should be a sign that going through Middleborough is a Bad Idea.

Also, heads up: You can't use the Middleborough Layover for Taunton service without either paying a pretty penny to modify it, or having some nasty operational issues from wyeing trains. It's designed to support trains coming from M/L. All of the locomotive support (oil pads, plug-ins, etc) are at the wrong end for trains coming from Cotley.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Counterpoint - Is it ok to negatively impact existing service to provide service where no service currently exists? Yes. If the result is an increase in overall ridership. (Obviously if that's not the case as assumed above, it's not.) Saying it's all about FTW as long as I get mine is not the end all be all nail in the coffin you seem to think it is. The pendulum swings both ways. ie. South Shore pols saying you can't have yours because it impacts what I already have. This is comparable to our Boston NIMBY's who oppose things that would block their view (something they don't own.)

Am I saying I want to cannibalize existing OC frequencies? Hell no! First and foremost... because it would negatively impact me as an existing rider.

If SCR on the M/L line were done, and it included double tracking thru Quincy/Dorchester, and it increased frequencies on the newly extended M/L branch, and it didn't impact the other OC lines frequencies, and it occasionally rained skittles on sunny days.... I'd be all over it. Again, much of this from a selfish me me me point of view. Train to NB and FR should drastically increase the number of trains thru Brockton. This helps me personally have more options for when to go to and from work. It also makes the train a more viable means of getting people into downtown Brockton (if there was ever a reason to do that), which could/should/would be an impetus to additional TOD in my city. Which again benefits me personally, and 100k other folks in my area.

As it stands unfortunately, it does none of those things. The proposed cheapo plan hurts the existing M/L line, that is already underserved when compared to other lines in the system (OC trains being the only lines in the service without late night trains). The new plan hurts M/L as stated by moving the existing station. The shifted Taunton location makes it a poor car & ride setup versus a possible TOD driver and walk to station it should be in a downtown setting.

The time to NB/FR is not ideal, but also not a deal breaker as LRFOX has accurately indicated. That isn't the problem here. The big problem is way too much money to "upgrade" a system that may in fact be an overall downgrade. That's not an acceptable solution/option.

The Stoughton solution isn't perfect either as it also hurts existing services. But, does it have a better chance of driving up overall ridership? Probably yes. Can we shave off a billion bucks and do away with the single track bridge as F-Line suggests? Sounds great. That sounds like just about the amount required to double track thru Quincy/Dot. Great, do them both for $3B. That should help the most people possible.

My bottom line is, yes South Coast should have rail. I don't have a bottom line on how it should be done however. Just opinions, anecdotes, and what helps me the most.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

And you still haven't explained how you're going to avoid screwing the current Middleborough/Lakeville station - which currently has hundreds of units of housing directly around it. Any possible service through Middleborough is going to involve reducing or eliminating service to one of the best examples of successful TOD in the entire state. That alone should be a sign that going through Middleborough is a Bad Idea.

Also, heads up: You can't use the Middleborough Layover for Taunton service without either paying a pretty penny to modify it, or having some nasty operational issues from wyeing trains. It's designed to support trains coming from M/L. All of the locomotive support (oil pads, plug-ins, etc) are at the wrong end for trains coming from Cotley.

I'm sorry but this whining about the current Middleborough station is absurd. Its moving a quarter of a mile away, not 20 miles. Taunton currently doesn't have service. You don't screw everybody else just to give them 100% of what they want (a downtown station). I'm also curious if this is what everybody wants or just useless career hack Marc Pacheco. Regardless, either they get nothing, or they get a station by Cotley near the 24/140 highway interchange. What's that expression about the good of the many outweighing the good of the one?

As far as capacity goes, Phase I and Phase II of my proposal does nothing toc cause schedule or capacity issues. Its the same train on the same schedule as the current one that stop in Middleborough.

To your second point the state as a result of using this far cheaper option would have to pony up to modify the layover. I was unaware that this would be an issue but again it seems like a solvable one, albeit a consideration that needs to be quantified when we get updated numbers.

 

[West]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm sorry but this whining about the current Middleborough station is absurd.

I'm not going to weigh in on this statement from a transit perspective, but I'm in the multi-family apartment investment business. From a real estate investment perspective, you can only call such a station relocation absurd whining if it’s not your money at stake. Same is true from a town revenue perspective. In real estate, especially where transit proximity is concerned, a half mile can mean many thousands or even millions of dollars of value differential from one spot to another, depending on the size of properties involved.

The existing station itself is in Lakeville, by a few dozen yards, not Middleborough, but wherever exactly the proposed station would go, it seems certain to be over the line into Middleborough.

The apartments near the existing station WILL lose value if the station goes to the far side of 495. A half mile walk to a T stop is less than I do every day, but my walk is very pleasant. A walk past/under a 495 interchange, with narrow sidewalks under the overpass (good luck keeping those clear in snow storms), exit / entry ramps that in two places cross pedestrian paths without signalization, not fun. The rental market that far out from Boston is not so tight that renters just have to suffer whatever crap gets offered. Even if the pedestrian path were to be improved, apartment renters will be less willing to pay for those Lakeville apartments with the longer, nastier walk as compared to what they are currently willing to pay for the dramatically shorter and safer walk. I have access to brokers that could provide some reasonable estimate of the value loss. Since my firm thankfully is not invested in those complexes, I don’t need to do this, but I assure you it can be estimated, and the impact will be negative, and run at least into six figures for some of the apartment complexes. Ditto for the office buildings, even the ones with DEP or FBI branches in them – they’re privately owned, not publicly. The length of commercial leases being generally way longer than residential, it would very probably take longer for the impact to hit the office building valuations, but it’d hit. Very probably we’re looking at millions of dollars of negative impact when viewed collectively for all affected properties in Lakeville. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see at least the threat of a class-action takings lawsuit, and perhaps an actual one.

This negative impact to real estate values falls in Lakeville, lowering that town’s revenues. Will there be offsetting increased real estate values over in Middleborough, along with increased town revenues? Yes. Whether it’s an exact offset is impossible to estimate, could be less, could be more. But the political point is: the spot being left is in Lakeville, the new spot is in Middleborough. And the set of real estate owners getting the boost are not likely the same owners taking the loss. So the proposed station move pits towns against each other, and property owners against each other. Thanks for the fun new political hot potato, MassDOT!

Within the larger context? A lot of the operational arguments get deep into the weeds, and I bet most politicians don’t understand them. But this arbitrary shift of value and revenue from one town and one set of property owners to another town and set of property owners? This is visceral, and quantifiable, and will raise concerns throughout the greater Boston real estate community, as other investors / property owners ask “wait a minute, you’re going install a new station in 1997 and then relocate it less than a quarter century later?” With the time needed for the real estate market to react to new or expanded stations being what it is, that’s way too short a life span for a station location. It took a decade after the station opened for some of those apartments to appear, and now with only a decade of ops under their belt, they read that the station might move in another few years? This is one of the very worst things a government can do to a real estate environment: pull the rug out from under property owners after they've done something the government encouraged them to do.

If you consider this all absurd whining, well, it’s your opinion, but those with real money at stake are going to vehemently disagree. If you meet one of those apartment complex owners at a public meeting and call them a whiner, be prepared for some real blowback. And if you really want to see the Middleborough alternative happen, and if the public reps on the South Coast use your approach to this specific component of the plan, I’d just say: good luck!!! They’ll need it. I hope they’ve got better arguments than “absurd whining” lined up on all the other issues.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

West, all good points. Not everybody makes out on the deal. Its tough to envision real estate prices collapsing in Lakeville because the train station moved up a bit, however I can see increases being muted from what they may have been in the near vicinity of the station. I'd also say as part of the mitigation, depending on where the new station ends up, some sort of pedestrian path/walkway etc should be part of it.

I'm a bit more skeptical of a ripple effect with real estate in the entire metro Boston region however. Isn't that like saying real estate prices in Boston proper have crashed because people who used to live near the Orange Line on Washington St (the EL) back in the 80's got their transit taken away from them, and because of that nobody wants to buy in the rest of the city? Same with the JP route down to Forest Hills.

So yes, I can certainly see an effect on property owners in the immediate vicinity of the old station and they have a legitimate gripe. Again, trust in Mr Spock. The good of the many must outweigh the good of the one. I doubt most people who are against this proposal could find Middleborough on a map, let alone could tell you what's near the station. Those people are the absurd whiners IMHO.

 

[Balerion]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I doubt most people who are against this proposal could find Middleborough on a map, let alone could tell you what's near the station. Those people are the absurd whiners IMHO.

I can assure you that approximately 100% of posters on this board have misspent a significant chunk of their lives looking at maps.

 

[West]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

If the station move were announced today as a firm decision, the prices in the immediate proximity to the station - not all of Lakeville, I'm talking those properties in close proximity - would drop. If they'd drop enough to call it a "collapse"? I don't know, define the word collapse. But they would drop. Immediately. In fact, if one of those apartment complexes were on the market, I'd fully expect to see bidders dripping their bids just from the fact that the proposal got floated. How much? I don't know, probably less than 5%, but even that would be real money. If I were a prospective buyer, I'd be running numbers with the help of a broker and at the least dropping my bid - or maybe just walking to let the dust settle. If I were selling it now and hearing from my brokers that buyers were nervous because of this, I'd be having both heartburn and serious discussions with the brokers about the pros and cons of pulling it off the market to let things settle. This impact is real, for that narrow band of properties.

I did not argue this would have a ripple effect on pricing throughout Boston RE - the situation is too focused for right now and the impact elsewhere too theoretical. However, I stand by the assertion that it would raise concerns, and I believe these concerns will get communicated in the political system, loudly though not necessarily publicly. The word "concerns" here should be read as very significant understatement. If they haven't already, at some point members of the statehouse and our Governor will get phone calls along the lines of "WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK ARE YOU DOING!!??" Whipsawing real estate investors this way gets push back, even if it's just a proposed whipsawing. The pushback will not be limited to Lakeville property owners, it could come from anywhere in the MBTA area. The state has been pushing TOD for some while now. This proposed station relocation IS a stab in the back to specific investors who followed the state's lead on TOD by putting real money at risk into TOD and who are now suddenly seeing their risk get increased as their reward for trusting the state. Baker's friends in the business community will not like that, and he can't ignore them, and it won't just be Baker facing these concerns.

As to your final paragraph. Perhaps many of the opponents of the Middleborough alternative can't find Middleborough on a map, but the people in Middleborough and Lakeville certainly can find themselves on a map. And they all just had a hand grenade flung in their lap. And as for Mr. Spock's "the good of the many must outweigh the good of the one": there's more than one person in Lakeville and more than one in Middleborough too. You and your fellow proponents now have some serious enemies that you've defined as "the one(s)" who "must" be overridden for the benefit of "the many" in other towns. And the state, by flinging this hand grenade in their lap, has awoken them to the fact that their interests are to be sacrificed for "the many" elsewhere.

Good luck to you: you're going to need it. Be careful using that Spock quote in any public forum that might include Lakeville residents or politicians: that word "must" will set them off.

 

[West]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I can assure you that approximately 100% of posters on this board have misspent a significant chunk of their lives looking at maps.

I can't speak for other posters on this board, but this is embarrassingly true for me.

 

[BuilditDenser]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I can assure you that approximately 100% of posters on this board have misspent a significant chunk of their lives looking at maps.

+ 1

best comment on the thread

 

[FK4]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I can assure you that approximately 100% of posters on this board have misspent a significant chunk of their lives looking at maps.

http://radicalcartography.net/

 

[millerm277]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm a bit more skeptical of a ripple effect with real estate in the entire metro Boston region however. Isn't that like saying real estate prices in Boston proper have crashed because people who used to live near the Orange Line on Washington St (the EL) back in the 80's got their transit taken away from them, and because of that nobody wants to buy in the rest of the city? Same with the JP route down to Forest Hills.

That's not really an apples to apples comparison. You could see the writing on the wall for demolishing it for decades beforehand and those involved in real estate would have known it was likely to disappear in the future.

The same is not true of Middleborough/Lakeville, which is a recent development you're trying to pull the rug out from under, right after it's gotten going.

----------

It was also at the time promised that the line would be receiving replacement light rail service, which didn't occur, so that likely blunted the immediate impact until people realized that was a lie. I would say that such lies and cutbacks are part of what's damaged the public trust in the MBTA and are a large component of the negative sentiment towards it.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

That's not really an apples to apples comparison. You could see the writing on the wall for demolishing it for decades beforehand and those involved in real estate would have known it was likely to disappear in the future.

The same is not true of Middleborough/Lakeville, which is a recent development you're trying to pull the rug out from under, right after it's gotten going.

----------

.

I can honestly say I've never heard that 25 years prior to the Orange Line El coming down people were planning for it. That would put it at around 1960, granted way before my time but I've never heard that, especially since where the Orange Line relocated to didn't come available until the 70's when the Inner Belt got canned.

Furthermore, the Middleborough line is a unique situation. First of all, you'd have to have a station at the end of the line, but south of a junction where you'd like to extend commuter rail. Is there any other station that qualifies in the whole system? Is there any other place, aside from the Cape, where commuter rail expansion is even being considered?

Lastly, how many people sitting in apartments in Lakeville are we talking about here? A couple hundred? This is getting into Harbor Towers territory, where for the sake of a few hundred people who made a real estate bet we screw everybody else.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm familiar with Middleborough/Lakeville as I use it regularly and I went to high school in Lakeville (over a decade ago) so I've got some perspective on what's gone on there (I'm not the only poster on AB with similar perspective either). While not big TOD by major metro standards, M/L has seen pretty significant development around it compared to the nothing that was there 10 years ago. Even moving the station 1/4 mile would be a kick in the pants. 7 apartment buildings (more in the works) and a handful of retail establishments (ok, two pharmacies, a bank, and a gas station) have all setup shop there mostly because of the station. The 495 access certainly doesn't hurt, but that section of route 105 (at 79- which was rerouted specifically because of station traffic) has seen a shot in the arm specifically because of M/L station. The same stretch of road a few hundred yards away on the opposite side of 495 hasn't changed much since I've been alive. So the station is the catalyst for a lot of development in a community where development really isn't a thing. I don't think moving the station is going be an easy sell.

Lastly, how many people sitting in apartments in Lakeville are we talking about here? A couple hundred? This is getting into Harbor Towers territory, where for the sake of a few hundred people who made a real estate bet we screw everybody else.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but it's not apples to apples. For starters, "a few hundred people" is proportionately more significant in a community of 10,000 than it is in a city of well over 600,000. Second of all, those few hundred people are even more proportionately significant when you consider that M/L serves about +/-900 riders each day.

Also, we're not talking about views (which constantly change in a major city full of towers), we're talking about the location of a train station- a relative constant in most cases- something that doesn't change all that often in real life (definitely not 1/4 mile). It's reasonable to be outraged by the state moving a relatively new, fully functioning rail station away from your home or business. It's not reasonable to buy a condo in a downtown tower and expect all development to stop because you "own your view."

Lastly, and I don't know how much weight to put on this, it's not easy to build in Lakeville or Middleborough. Especially on a large scale. Yanking the rug out of M/L station and the surrounding TOD would create long standing rifts between local and state government and for good reason.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm familiar with Middleborough/Lakeville as I use it regularly and I went to high school in Lakeville (over a decade ago) so I've got some perspective on what's gone on there (I'm not the only poster on AB with similar perspective either).

*Raises hand*

While not big TOD by major metro standards, M/L has seen pretty significant development around it compared to the nothing that was there 10 years ago. Even moving the station 1/4 mile would be a kick in the pants. 7 apartment buildings (more in the works) and a handful of retail establishments (ok, two pharmacies, a bank, and a gas station) have all setup shop there mostly because of the station. The 495 access certainly doesn't hurt, but that section of route 105 (at 79- which was rerouted specifically because of station traffic) has seen a shot in the arm specifically because of M/L station. The same stretch of road a few hundred yards away on the opposite side of 495 hasn't changed much since I've been alive. So the station is the catalyst for a lot of development in a community where development really isn't a thing. I don't think moving the station is going be an easy sell.



I definitely see where you're coming from, but it's not apples to apples. For starters, "a few hundred people" is proportionately more significant in a community of 10,000 than it is in a city of well over 600,000. Second of all, those few hundred people are even more proportionately significant when you consider that M/L serves about +/-900 riders each day.

Also, we're not talking about views (which constantly change in a major city full of towers), we're talking about the location of a train station- a relative constant in most cases- something that doesn't change all that often in real life (definitely not 1/4 mile). It's reasonable to be outraged by the state moving a relatively new, fully functioning rail station away from your home or business. It's not reasonable to buy a condo in a downtown tower and expect all development to stop because you "own your view."

Lastly, and I don't know how much weight to put on this, it's not easy to build in Lakeville or Middleborough. Especially on a large scale. Yanking the rug out of M/L station and the surrounding TOD would create long standing rifts between local and state government and for good reason.

I second and agree with everything you've written in this thread so far. I can also confirm pretty much all of your allegations about the South Coast, its state of development/TOD & impacts M/L has had on the surrounding communities.