Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[Scipio]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Notice of Project Change filed

Dear friends of South Coast Rail,

Since the last round of public meetings on South Coast Rail in September 2016, MassDOT and the MBTA have been looking at ways to provide service to the South Coast more quickly and cost effectively. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is committed to moving forward with the SCR project and to doing so in a manner that provides long-awaited commuter rail service for the South Coast region as soon as possible. For this reason, MassDOT is proceeding with permitting and early actions on the Stoughton Electric project already reviewed by the Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act office (MEPA) while also proposing to adopt a phased approach that could provide an interim service years before revenue service is possible on the final phase project.

MassDOT filed a Notice of Project Change (NPC) on March 15, 2017 in order to advance the option of an interim service serving both New Bedford and Fall River using the existing Middleborough/Lakeville Commuter Rail Line while at the same time work proceeds to design, permit and fund the Stoughton Electric final phase project (including, particularly, the so-called Southern Triangle).

While the Stoughton Electric Route remains the choice of the federal and state environmental process, a phased implementation will permit the MBTA to serve the region sooner while continuing to work with the agencies and the public to design and build the full service. SCR Phase 1 would provide service from New Bedford, Fall River and Taunton to Boston using the Middleborough Secondary line and the existing Middleborough/Lakeville Commuter Rail line. For Phase 2, MassDOT will continue to advance the full Stoughton Electric (preferred alternative) design, which consists of new track and stations between Canton Center and Cotley Junction.

Phase 1 service would be diesel service to be compatible with the existing line. The ride from New Bedford and Fall River to South Station will be longer compared to Stoughton Electric service. However, MassDOT heard the sentiments expressed in the last round of public meetings – to do something now to provide a transit option to residents of the region, restoring service last provided to the South Coast in 1959.

The NPC is required since the Middleborough Option was not previously evaluated in the Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act (MEPA) documents, and MassDOT did not propose a phased approach. The NPC discusses aspects of the project that are likely to require additional analysis in a Supplemental Environmental Impact Report (SEIR). MassDOT is also working with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to define the federal process.

MassDOT will host a public meeting on the NPC during the comment period. More details will be announced in a future email and on the website.

Documents are here: http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/southcoastrail/Documents/Environmental.aspx

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Praise the Lord. Glad to see some common sense seeping in. Train to Stoughton will never happen, so looks like having that as "phase 2" is ass covering. Regardless I hope they don't hold up one city while it waits for track/station construction in the other one. Start with a couple of bare bones stations (end of each line, then Taunton, then Middleborough). No need to do Freetown or Dighton or any other such nonsense right away.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Did this Phase 1 happen to include unpinching the single-track section of the Old Colony between JFK/UMass & Savin Hill? Middleboro could use it all by itself. Going to Taunton cries out for it.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Did this Phase 1 happen to include unpinching the single-track section of the Old Colony between JFK/UMass & Savin Hill? Middleboro could use it all by itself. Going to Taunton cries out for it.

Yes. It involves an extremely messy widening of the ROW along the Southeast Expressway.

 

[Semass]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Yes. It involves an extremely messy widening of the ROW along the Southeast Expressway.

Where do you see that in the NPC? I think that is a different project entirely that is not included in this filing or budget.

This routing is failure by design. It allows DOT to get some of the South Coast pols off their backs for a few years with a hobbled service that is not frequent enough or fast enough to attract enough passengers to make it viable. Then, when it fails to attract those passengers and completely fouls the Old Colony from Braintree to Dorchester, they can say "See? We told to so." and kill the service citing outrageous subsidy per passenger. All the while, fucking over a perfectly good and highway accessible Park&Ride/TOD in Lakeville.

This plan is so cynical that it physically hurts. You can make plenty of valid arguments about the need for the service but Pacheco is correct here - the sweet spot for this service is not NB/FR but Taunton. This actually reduces the viability of a potentially strong service in Taunton as a throwaway to NB/FR.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Disagree. People need to see the big picture here. Boston has a serious problem, which is not enough workers. So the question becomes 1) where do they come from, and 2) how do they get here. As far as I can tell, the only untapped places not currently served by mass transit are New Hampshire which the last time I checked wasn't part of our state, and Southeastern Mass which is and has higher unemployment.

I am in no way in favor of the multi billion dollar boondoggle that was the original plan to resurrect a rail line that's been defunct for 50 years through environmentally sensitive areas. That's even before the lawsuits start. However, running along existing tracks? What's the problem?

Yes, NB and FR commuters will have to prove their demand by riding the thing. But why wouldn't they? Having done that commute before the bus service is horrific and charges extortion level prices because they have a monopoly on the service. Traffic is insane and gridlock starts between Taunton and 495. If people in Taunton have to go to a station at the junction of 24 and 140 instead of downtown, boo hoo hoo already. Taunton has about 65K population while FR and NB are like 90-100K each. It doesn't make sense to screw them so a smaller city which is getting a rail station either way has a stop exactly where they please.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

How many FR/NB commuters live in the downtown anyway?
A Taunton park-and-ride probably much better serves this any Boston-bound commuter in the South Coast catchment.

This project is not about TOD and walking to the train. It is about intercepting car trips before they crowd into 24. Taunton will be very effective.

US3 Need a PPP and congestion-tolled center from the Cape to the Boston Haul road. We may not have a plausible builder for that right now, but Virginia has certainly mastered the art with all its toll lanes on its Beltway and I-95/I-66. That should be accelerated and get us the Old Colony fix.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

So they say that the Middleboro route will be slightly slower than the Stoughton route but in the 52 page Notice of Project Change don't list actual expected travel time?

Why is there no bus service that I'm aware of from Taunton, Fall River, and New Bedford to an existing Middleboro Line station right now?

Also, why don't we have congestion tolling on the existing highways?

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Why is there no bus service that I'm aware of from Taunton, Fall River, and New Bedford to an existing Middleboro Line station right now?

Also, why don't we have congestion tolling on the existing highways?

Bus service from FR to Middleborough wouldn't make sense. You'd be taking 3highways to get there and you'd have to backtrack at 24/495 to reach station. At that point you might as well keep driving to Boston.

Similar problem with NB. Station is on 495, so you either go up 140 to 24 and then backtrack on 495, or you go all the way over to Wareham on 195 to catch 495 almost at the Cape and then head up.

Congestion tolling goes by another name: screwing people. Nobody likes being caught in traffic. Most likely if you're on the roads when everybody else is its because you have to, not because you want to. Not sure why that concept is lost on its advocates.

 

[JumboBuc]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Remember that Massachusetts voters rolled back an inflation adjustment to the gas tax by ballot initiative. That should tell you everything you need to know about why we don't have congestion tolling.

 

[FK4]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Disagree. People need to see the big picture here. Boston has a serious problem, which is not enough workers. So the question becomes 1) where do they come from, and 2) how do they get here. As far as I can tell, the only untapped places not currently served by mass transit are New Hampshire which the last time I checked wasn't part of our state, and Southeastern Mass which is and has higher unemployment.

That doesn't mean the solution is commuter rail to the most far flung cities of the state. Who exactly are these workers Boston has a shortage of? Last time I checked, it's people like busboys and retail. I don't see people spending ~10 bucks each way to take a nearly 2 hour ride to Boston for their shift that pays 13 an hour. The "big picture" would be actually determining the locations that have the biggest unemployment bases and then determining the most effect way to unlock those workers. If that study found that spending billions to run a rail line to FR/NB is the key, ok fine, go ahead. But that's pretty fuckin doubtful. These projects should have 20 year plans that shoot for netting the greatest number of new riders/least amount of money spent. Not just saying, hey, here's a city that doesn't have a train, let's build one!

I would guess that building a Blue Line to Lynn (+/- Salem) would be comparable in cost and net a much greater number of riders than this project. And there's plenty of other projects like that. You can debate me on whether or not certain projects are better than others, but the fact remains that this project is driven by politics and not reason. MA should start from the top down, rank projects by algorithm that takes into account upfront cost, long term cost/benefit, long term ridership increases and employment access, NOT just connecting dots on a map because the trains don't go there and local reps feel left out of the pork barrel.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

That doesn't mean the solution is commuter rail to the most far flung cities of the state. Who exactly are these workers Boston has a shortage of? Last time I checked, it's people like busboys and retail. I don't see people spending ~10 bucks each way to take a nearly 2 hour ride to Boston for their shift that pays 13 an hour. The "big picture" would be actually determining the locations that have the biggest unemployment bases and then determining the most effect way to unlock those workers. If that study found that spending billions to run a rail line to FR/NB is the key, ok fine, go ahead. But that's pretty fuckin doubtful. These projects should have 20 year plans that shoot for netting the greatest number of new riders/least amount of money spent. Not just saying, hey, here's a city that doesn't have a train, let's build one!

I would guess that building a Blue Line to Lynn (+/- Salem) would be comparable in cost and net a much greater number of riders than this project. And there's plenty of other projects like that. You can debate me on whether or not certain projects are better than others, but the fact remains that this project is driven by politics and not reason. MA should start from the top down, rank projects by algorithm that takes into account upfront cost, long term cost/benefit, long term ridership increases and employment access, NOT just connecting dots on a map because the trains don't go there and local reps feel left out of the pork barrel.

All perfectly logical.

But unfortunately ignores political reality. Pork barrel spending is the grease that smooths the gears of politics. No pork fat, no gear movement. Same reason why Amtrak maintain a totally nonsensical national network with mostly abysmal ridership. Without those routes, no funding for Amtrak would ever pass.

The political trick is to figure out the minimal amount of pork needed to get the votes for the general funding needed to do the right (high impact) things. (The massive Fall River/New bedford investment is over the top pork -- there should be a much lower cost compromise that give the local reps air cover "see I brought home the bacon!")

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

That doesn't mean the solution is commuter rail to the most far flung cities of the state. Who exactly are these workers Boston has a shortage of? Last time I checked, it's people like busboys and retail. I don't see people spending ~10 bucks each way to take a nearly 2 hour ride to Boston for their shift that pays 13 an hour. The "big picture" would be actually determining the locations that have the biggest unemployment bases and then determining the most effect way to unlock those workers. If that study found that spending billions to run a rail line to FR/NB is the key, ok fine, go ahead. But that's pretty fuckin doubtful. These projects should have 20 year plans that shoot for netting the greatest number of new riders/least amount of money spent. Not just saying, hey, here's a city that doesn't have a train, let's build one!

I would guess that building a Blue Line to Lynn (+/- Salem) would be comparable in cost and net a much greater number of riders than this project. And there's plenty of other projects like that. You can debate me on whether or not certain projects are better than others, but the fact remains that this project is driven by politics and not reason. MA should start from the top down, rank projects by algorithm that takes into account upfront cost, long term cost/benefit, long term ridership increases and employment access, NOT just connecting dots on a map because the trains don't go there and local reps feel left out of the pork barrel.

Again I think you're missing the point. I already said I wouldn't spend billions on this project (the Stoughton line). How the fuk hard is it to run a train down an existing in use track? Build bare bones stations and let the ridership grow from there. You have maybe half a million people in that area (Taunton-FR-NB and neighboring communities) with zero mass transit. I agree with running the Blue line up to Salem, but the BIG difference is Salem already has a commuter line stop.

I'd also say your first paragraph smacks of elitism. Boston has available jobs be it in biotech, finance, medical, academia, hospitality/tourism even (no, not just desk clerks and room cleaners) that may not be 6 figure incomes, but offer far more opportunity than what SE Mass has currently. I knew several people who commuted from Taunton to downtown to work at my former employer (a finance co) for example. It benefits the city if those jobs can be filled by people who can live off of the salary they provide. That is accomplished with a transit connection.

Obviously its up to the denizens of this area to utilize this new connection. No argument there. But if you can make that happen at a fraction of the cost of the ridiculous swamp crossing option, why wouldn't you?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

That doesn't mean the solution is commuter rail to the most far flung cities of the state. Who exactly are these workers Boston has a shortage of? Last time I checked, it's people like busboys and retail. I don't see people spending ~10 bucks each way to take a nearly 2 hour ride to Boston for their shift that pays 13 an hour. The "big picture" would be actually determining the locations that have the biggest unemployment bases and then determining the most effect way to unlock those workers. If that study found that spending billions to run a rail line to FR/NB is the key, ok fine, go ahead.

If we spent a billion subsidizing off shore wind turbine construction with the jobs created primarily for Fall River / New Bedford / Taunton, would that get us anywhere?

Alternatively, could we get anywhere useful by increasing the number of market rate homes in Boston proper / the inner suburbs that are relatively affordable, and letting folks from the areas with higher unemployment move closer to the city?

Or some combination of both?

There may be cases where helping the most economically disadvantaged populations may be a bigger priority than maximizing ridership.

 

[Semass]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

How the fuk hard is it to run a train down an existing in use track? Build bare bones stations and let the ridership grow from there.

Uh, real hard? This track hasn't been used for passenger services since at least the 80's and some of it more like the 1880's. This is freight track kept to a standard for freight. That means slow choo-choos. The commute on this is going to suck at 60 mph. Wanna slow it down to 25? use that existing track. Nope, gotta replace it all. Grade crossings too. This is a secondary line and the crossings are inadequate for trains moving at 60+ mph. Figure at least $1 million each to upgrade. Barebones station? That is the standard. A typical ADA compliant high level platform station with a couple of shelters and a parking lot starts at $10 million. About that freight track? Probably doesn't have signal infrastructure. That whole southern triangle needs signals. Did we mention that new passenger tracks need to be PTC compliant? Gotta put that in. The T is looking at darn near $750 million to a billion system wide and the due date is coming up fast. Where do you put the trains at night? Do you leave them in Middleboro and deadhead them to FR and NB every morning for the first revenue run? That gets expensive fast. Got to have layovers at Wamsutta and Weaver's. Trains? Right. Trains, gotta get some of them too. The T barely squeaks by with existing locomotives and cars for service today. That'll be what, $7 per locomotive and $1 million per car?
The point here is that commuter rail is highly regulated, capital intensive, and a hell of a lot more complicated than showing up with a train one morning and yelling out All Aboard. If you are going to do it, you can't half-ass it.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Uh, real hard? This track hasn't been used for passenger services since at least the 80's and some of it more like the 1880's. This is freight track kept to a standard for freight. That means slow choo-choos. The commute on this is going to suck at 60 mph. Wanna slow it down to 25? use that existing track. Nope, gotta replace it all. Grade crossings too. This is a secondary line and the crossings are inadequate for trains moving at 60+ mph. Figure at least $1 million each to upgrade. Barebones station? That is the standard. A typical ADA compliant high level platform station with a couple of shelters and a parking lot starts at $10 million. About that freight track? Probably doesn't have signal infrastructure. That whole southern triangle needs signals. Did we mention that new passenger tracks need to be PTC compliant? Gotta put that in. The T is looking at darn near $750 million to a billion system wide and the due date is coming up fast. Where do you put the trains at night? Do you leave them in Middleboro and deadhead them to FR and NB every morning for the first revenue run? That gets expensive fast. Got to have layovers at Wamsutta and Weaver's. Trains? Right. Trains, gotta get some of them too. The T barely squeaks by with existing locomotives and cars for service today. That'll be what, $7 per locomotive and $1 million per car?
The point here is that commuter rail is highly regulated, capital intensive, and a hell of a lot more complicated than showing up with a train one morning and yelling out All Aboard. If you are going to do it, you can't half-ass it.

Lots here, lets unpack it one by one.

1) Nobody claimed you'd be doing this for free. However, you already need to upgrade existing track anyway for the spurs that go from Cotley Junction to NB and FR. Were I running this thing, I'd simply run to Taunton and NB first using the existing trains that now end their run in Middleborough. That answers another one of your points - no extra trains needed. Current trains just running a few stops more.

2) Trains I understand will park at Wamsutta where they do have lots of room for a layover yard. Been in that neighborhood and trust me, its not like they'll be disturbing anything over there.

3) 60 mph to Middleborough is fine. You're lucky if you average half that driving the full way.

4) There are very few grade crossings that I'm aware of at least in the NB portion. Couldn't tell you about where it goes in Freetown.

The bottom line is this: Keep it simple. Yes you're upgrading tracks and bridges some of which is already happening. Yes a 10M station sounds good, but don't put stations every 2 miles. Taunton @ 140/24, Whales Tooth/Wamsutta, Heritage Park and you've covered most of the area. Also should move Middleborough station north of the tie in with the existing commuter line. Unless we're dealing with the same contractors running the GLX this is a fraction of the cost. There's almost no land acquisition needed and I believe MassDot already owns the tracks. This is the best and most cost effective approach.

 

[Scipio]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I bet South Coast Hyperloop happens before SCR Phase 2:
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/spec...-supports-plan-to-bring-hyperloop-to-somerset

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Re: Congestion tolling

Congestion tolling goes by another name: screwing people. Nobody likes being caught in traffic. Most likely if you're on the roads when everybody else is its because you have to, not because you want to. Not sure why that concept is lost on its advocates.

What about people who have to pick up their kids from day care on time or pay a fee? Are congestion tolls always more expensive than those day care fees?

And http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=289889&postcount=4638 seems to be arguing that some people do look at the current pricing and decide to drive instead of taking the T:

a friend who lived in Brookline recently got a job in Providence and found that even with having to pay to have her car lease mileage increased, she'd come out ahead driving in every day v. the cost of a monthly commuter rail pass.

(If this person could be traveling in a Tesla Model 3 instead of taking a diesel powered commuter train, I wouldn't even be terribly unhappy about the single occupancy vehicle use.)

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

As far as I can tell, the only untapped places not currently served by mass transit are New Hampshire which the last time I checked wasn't part of our state, and Southeastern Mass which is and has higher unemployment.

Do http://www.srtabus.com/ and http://www.gatra.org/ somehow not count as Southeastern Massachusetts mass transit?