Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Once again -- Nice recitation of the history, great maps

Nice comments about forever ROW -- except you forget the reality -- once a bike or hike trail it will never be anything else saith the hike and bike people who vastly outnumber / out-wail / out-fund raise any rail people

Same thing goes for anything related to swamps -- swamp-o-philes can even out-do the hike&bike set in fund raising and protesting

Moral of the story -- go into Taunton with high capacity and frequency -- major hub -- everyone else drives [kiss & ride / park & ride / zipcar and ride] or they take the bus to Taunton as the highways are already built and have plenty of capacity down at that end
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Once again -- Nice recitation of the history, great maps

Nice comments about forever ROW -- except you forget the reality -- once a bike or hike trail it will never be anything else saith the hike and bike people who vastly outnumber / out-wail / out-fund raise any rail people

Same thing goes for anything related to swamps -- swamp-o-philes can even out-do the hike&bike set in fund raising and protesting

Moral of the story -- go into Taunton with high capacity and frequency -- major hub -- everyone else drives [kiss & ride / park & ride / zipcar and ride] or they take the bus to Taunton as the highways are already built and have plenty of capacity down at that end

I'm not forgetting the reality of de-landbanking. You have to apply the protected legal status against "forever" timetables. 100-year considerations are completely beyond prediction, so speculation is useless as to whether those bike paths are going to be there in 50 years or if some other urgent transportation need--reanimated rail, hyperloop, line-of-sight teleportation repeaters--is going to need the corridors for the good of the economy. Or if multimodal corridors are in the cards (after all, rail-with-trail's not exactly a rare thing). Nobody could've predicted in 1880 that the advent of commercial electricity would flip the Shawmut Branch in Dorchester on this very same Old Colony map to Red Line subway trains within 32 years, or predicted in 1913 that 2 World Wars and an economic sea change would've claimed the Milton Branch ROW in 40 years for the Southeast Expressway. That's the level of unprojectability we're talking about with "forever" legalities.

As I said, nine-tenths of that yellow has absolutely bupkis demand to hang a Crazy Transit Pitch on in 2016...or any future conditions we can make an educated guess on in 2016. But these are revokable 99-year trail leases, so anybody want to take a gander on what the year 2115 has in store for the South Coast? That speculation would be about as accurate at predicting in 1920 during peak power of the robber-barron railroad monopolies that those same ROW's would be hosting rail trails 90 years later. It's timetables beyond comprehension. We don't know anyone who'll be alive and participating in the Eastern MA or U.S.-at-large economy--whatever it looks like--in 2115...since the infants born in 2015 who today can't communicate in more than a half-dozen words almost certainly are going to be retired when they hit age 100. But those transportation corridors will still be chartered as transportation corridors when they turn 100. Maybe there will be a mission-critical need for a complete Providence-FR-NB-Cape corridor by then using some old, some new, some borrowed land. That's the whole point of landbanking laws: it's forever, and held for considerations beyond the date range anyone today is capable of predicting.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Well said. All we can be certain of on the long timescale is that continuous long-distance overland corridors are going to continue to be really freaking useful for *something*...which is why the 'abandonments' on your map - and the never-closed short gaps (hard not to think of nsrl...) are the parts that are the real bang-your-head-against the wall frustrations
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Well said. All we can be certain of on the long timescale is that continuous long-distance overland corridors are going to continue to be really freaking useful for *something*...which is why the 'abandonments' on your map - and the never-closed short gaps (hard not to think of nsrl...) are the parts that are the real bang-your-head-against the wall frustrations

The Northside vs. Southside break at least has a rational and easily understandable explanation in differing ownerships. Boston & Maine didn't sell out the northside to the state and unify the Purple Line until 1976...exactly 40 years ago, and an event several posters on this board can personally remember as adults. The Old Colony--both the independent 19th c. company and the 20th c. semi-autonomous division of the NYNH&H colossus--had a monopoly on every single rail line south and east of the NEC and Fairmount Line from 1844 to 1969...a full 1-1/4 centuries. They got their start buying up North America's first ever railroad in Milton. They laid every stick of rail in SE Mass. They put the colonial toll turnpikes completely out-of-buisiness on present-day Routes 3A, 28, and 138 with the Plymouth, Middleboro/Cape, and Stoughton Lines.

But the Old Colony "forgot" about the Post Road spur turnpike, and never fixed those two tiny E-W gaps. For 100 years, it never filled the gaps. It can't be said enough: that defies all rational explanation. It makes zero fucking sense for economics of 200 years of for-profit railroading on Planet Earth. It makes zero fucking sense for the economics of 400 years of for-profit ground transportation in the Americas. It makes zero fucking sense for the economics of 2000+ years of for-profit ground transportation in the history of human civilization. Downtown Fall River and Acushnet River...does not compute. There's no hidden story to forensically uncover from evidence...no lost bets at a Freemason lodge...nothing. It just doesn't fucking make sense, and never will.
 
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

OK...for reference's sake, here's the least-worst options for re-creating a Providence-Fall River/Newport connection. Keep in mind that this is hopelessly expensive, fraught with EIS'ing uncertainty, and probably isn't going to float itself on demand unless City Hall gets demolished + the I-195 canyon gets reworked so the Wattupa Branch can get a side reservation opening up Providence-New Bedford service.

Yada-yada too many expensive moving parts...you get the pessimistic picture and bottom-line futility in it all.:(

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All RI territory is de-landbanked existing ROW, and the new river crossing + hook-in to the Fall River Branch are on the footprint of the old ROW. Keep in mind that since MA 79 is going to be demolished for humongous TOD and park acreage between the NB and SB halves of Davol St. that the Fall River touchdown will be an unencroached nuke zone.

2 alternatives, both deviating off the Warren Branch ROW at the state line and crossing Wilbur Ave. to grab a very wide power line ROW. Our only saving grace here is that the whole area is THICK with power line ROW's thanks to Somerset Generating Station.

Alt. 1: Stick exclusively to power line ROW's (marked by double-ended arrows across map).

Advantages:
4.2 miles of contiguous land well-buffered from abutters. No private property takings. Easily acquirable from utility with no relocation of power lines. Straightest available path. Mostly level. Fastest track geometry. Accessible for construction via dirt access roads.

Disadvantages: 2 moderately large water crossings in Lee's River watershed w/ associated shoreline wetlands driving up cost. Couple adjacent residential subdivisions of possible NIMBY's. More EIS'ing unknowns throughout because power line ROW's aren't a pre-existing transportation corridor.


Alt. 2: I-195 median.

Advantages: All MassDOT land. Adequate median space. Sidesteps NIMBY pockets. Easier EIS'ing on 2 Lee's River watershed crossings by modding/augmenting existing 195 spans instead of building new.

Disadvantages: Lousy geometry, sharper curves, slower speeds. Warehouse property takings on Walker St. Close shave on Wilbur St. abutters. Complicated slip-on/slip-off to 195 median, with yucky wetlands impacts @ the Lee's River slip-on. Steel-and-concrete bridge construction costs over Lee's River same as Alt. 1, despite less-impactful EIS'ing. Caveat that highway median rail retrofits rarely pan out as simple in real life as the holy grail they look on-paper, so potential for unforeseen cost bloat.


The numbered placemarkers on the map show significant abutting structures or wetlands. Goes as follows:
1. Stony Creek Farm -- New ROW needs easement to split halves of property, needs farm grade crossing for tractors to access easterly field. Probably not a problem.
2. House -- Close shave of property lines, but no impact. Possible NIMBY.
3. House -- Slightly further away than #2. Possible NIMBY.
4. House -- Abuts power line ROW. No impact since now on ROW. Possible NIMBY. Other houses in neighborhood much better-buffered from power lines.
5. Wetlands -- Complication for EIS'ing Alt. 2 curve onto I-195 median. Curve geometry gets sharper, slower, more unfavorable the further away required to stay from riverbank.
6. Private easement -- Industrial abutter. Need easement through backlot. Not a problem.
7/8/9. Lee's River watershed crossings -- Perilous EIS'ing, expensive bridge construction. 8 & 9 could be one single structure instead of two.
10. Industrial abutter + 1 house -- Probably not long for this world once MA 79 comes down and Davol St.-facing redev becomes the motif for the waterfront. Expendable.
11. Bicentennial Park -- *Some* compromised access, but it already has two ugly electrical substations in the middle so being split by a rail viaduct wouldn't make it any less attractive.
12a-e I-195 overpasses/underpasses -- Lee's River watershed crossings would have to be doubled-up, median undercut on road overpasses.
13. I-195 slip-off -- Complicated because ROW has to diverge right at Brayton Point Rd. overpass. Reworking likely.
14. Residential abutters -- Not real close, but possible NIMBY's. Unclear if this meadow is wetlands.
15. Walker St. -- Splits industrial abutters; has to be taken for ROW. Land acquisition required, access disruption (but probably not outright demolition) to abutting buildings.
16-17. Multiple houses + businesses on Wilbur St. -- On old ROW, but zero buffer between backyards. Crappy low-income housing + auto chop shops, so NIMBY potential limited...but lots of properties affected by disruptive proximity.



There's probably no cost difference between the two. Alt. 1 has more EIS uncertainty, but much nicer track geometry if you can get it. Alt. 2 has shitty track geometry, but sure-thing EIS'ing. NIMBY problems not that significant because of sparse population density...more sorta close upper-class residential abutters in Alt. 1, bona fide land-takings and zero-buffer Wilbur Ave. abutters in Alt. 2. Pick your poison.

I kinda prefer Alt. 1 for being a flat-out better-performing rail route, and because I think pre-existing highway medians are a lot harder than they look to modify. The jump from the old ROW at the state line to the power line ROW is a turd-sandwich of a speed restriction, but it's unavoidable and at least gets its S-curving business over with quickly enough. But it's all moot because this just isn't a contiguous enough corridor to float its own demand, and will never be worth the money.

Oh, well...maybe in 2075 the demand picture will look different.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Probably one of the reasons the gap in Falls River was never closed was because of the height difference between the waterfront tracks and the end of the tracks on the Quequechan River. Near as I can tell, it'd be a 130' drop over 3/4 of a mile, with no opportunity to lengthen the grade because of the millpond dams. Afterall, the falls that made Falls River were on the Quequechan.
 
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Actually plans were drawn for connecting the Watuppa Branch to the Fall River mainline. The tunnel portal would have been just south of Bowenville Station around Davol Street (I think). I have some copies of the plans packed away.

Another proposal was looping the line south of Fall River from the Watuppa Ponds and connecting with the Fall River mainline south of freight yards.

D
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

E-mail "sent in error" shows the State may be leaning toward the Middleboro route:

Email shows state leaning toward Middleboro route for South Coast Rail

Posted at 9:30 AM | Updated at 9:42 AM
By Andy Metzger/State House News Service


...

The email said that MassDOT believes the project should be implemented in stages, with phase one including a new Middleboro Station - which would be near the existing Lakeville station - and stations in East Taunton, Fall River and New Bedford.

"Phase 1 will extend MBTA commuter rail service on the Lakeville line to New Bedford and Fall River, along the Middleboro Secondary from [Pilgrim] Junction (Middleboro) to the terminal stations at Whale's Tooth and Fall River Depot, providing a one-seat ride," the email states.

Service would include two peak-period diesel trains to Fall River and New Bedford, according to the email. Construction of additional stations - Freetown, Kings Highway in New Bedford and Battleship Cove in Fall River - would be deferred, according to the email.

The email was sent by MassDOT legislative director Michael Berry. On Tuesday evening, James Eng, MassDOT's deputy administrator for rail, wrote a follow-up email, according to MassDOT, calling the earlier email "factually inaccurate" while advising that if the "Middleboro option would mean South Coast service sooner and more cost effectively, we would be interested in exploring it further."

...

Pollack said there is no "final information" about the cost or timeframe for pursuing the Middleboro route. The transportation secretary said she and others want to make a decision on which route to pursue "in the early part of this year."

Another wrinkle to the Middleboro option is that Middleboro-Lakeville, which is now the end of a commuter rail line, already has a station. The existing station in Lakeville, which is not situated along the route to Fall River and New Bedford, also has a housing complex next to it.

"They'll be pretty livid that that's not the station," Pacheco said.

Straus said the existing station is only a quarter mile from the site of the proposed new station, and a shuttle or walking path could be built along the rail-bed to the new station. Straus also said the vast majority of people who use Middleboro-Lakeville drive to the station.

...

Full article: http://marion.wickedlocal.com/news/...-toward-middleboro-route-for-south-coast-rail
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

E-mail "sent in error" shows the State may be leaning toward the Middleboro route:

This approach is 100% correct and I'm glad they're apparently pursuing it. Do a bare bones set up initially with basic stations instead of building the Taj Mahal at each stop. The stations you need are NB, FL and Taunton. Taunton at the junction near where 24 and 140 meet, FR and NB as discussed in the article. You don't need Freetown anytime soon. Nobody lives there and its close enough to the other stations. I'd really like to see an updated cost estimate on this as I feel this approach was dismissed too easily when Devalue Patrick and crew were pushing the Stoughton approach which will never happen due to the environmental mitigation through a swamp where the residents claim Big Foot might live (that was actually written in the Globe once, not making that up).
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

How is OCL supposed to handle two more branches than it currently does?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Not sure how they plan on incorporating Fall River, but even their politicians are saying its okay to do New Bedford first. To that end, isn't New Bedford just a continuation on existing track of the Middleborough train? As in the last stop (with the station being moved north because I think the junction is a little further up the tracks than the current station as the article mentions) was formerly Middleborough/Lakeville but now it'll be New Bedford? Might change the schedule a little bit but no extra capacity.

Only thing I don't like is Whale's Tooth. I realize its the end of the line terminating by the Wamsutta Mills and the state pier but the connections to the highway are terrible. Exit off of 195 takes you through a few narrow back roads, and turn off of Rt 18 (which cuts off good portion of city from the water send you over roads littered with defunct train tracks. Also not sure about the parking situation although I suppose they could use old mill parking lot across the street. Would rather see a north end NB stop initially.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The layover yard will be in the current yard along with some designated freight tracks that have been in use off and on - mainly for the PCB sludge removal traffic. The Maritime Terminal will be getting rail service again as soon as the bridge replacement project over RT 18 is done (soon). The only thing that really bothers me is the dumb name for the station.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

which will never happen due to the environmental mitigation through a swamp where the residents claim Big Foot might live (that was actually written in the Globe once, not making that up).

Oh, you must mean this--a landmark documentary on a *most important* cryptozoological phenomenon:

http://thebridgewatertriangledocumentary.com/

So as to absorb the cultural landscape of the Hockomock, viewers are advised to imbibe copious quantities of this brew [which yours truly has yet to sample but is most intrigued by]:

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/39144/165135/

*End thread derail*
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Hadn't thought about the layover yard. That's one of the reasons I'd like to see an updated formal proposal. They have room at Whale's Tooth so that makes sense but I still say the road connections are terrible. Was down there last week and it looks like they're working on the railroad bridge over Rt 18 but getting to the station is going to be a big issue that needs to be addressed.

Regarding Big Foot in the swamp, I got hammered on Goldschlager once....just once...and from my vague recollections that night I think I saw Big Foot driving a Green Line train. Whatever those people are on down there they need to bottle it up and sell it.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

If overhead power lines for commuter rail are too expensive, and battery EMUs too hypothetical at this point, maybe we should think about HOV lanes in conjuction with battery buses, given that Proterra claims to be able to make battery buses that can go 350 miles on a charge. (That might be the range at 35 MPH, but even if that's the case it probably has enough battery range to travel from Fall River to Boston at 65 MPH on a single charge.)
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I've never understood why this hasn't been built as HOV/BRT/dedicated express bus service. It makes far more sense than rail for this route.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I've never understood why this hasn't been built as HOV/BRT/dedicated express bus service. It makes far more sense than rail for this route.

Hmmmm...curious as to how that would work as someone who many years ago made this commute regularly. Does the HOV lane start in these cities themselves, which would be difficult since both Rt 24 and Rt 140 are two lane highways all the way to Taunton where the join up and then I believe up to 495 where the highway widens. I'm also not sure how you make the connection at the 93/95 split in Braintree and then connect to the existing HOV lane where it starts after the Rt 3/93 split. Seems the bus would have to cross all lanes of the highway at some point.

My personal preference again is to merely run the Middleborough train down to Taunton and NB and call it a day. Same schedule for Middleborough, same usage and capacity unless the Middleborough train is already packed to the gills and I don't believe it is. Solve Fall River later. Yes this will require moving the Middleborough station but that's a pretty small price to pay vs the alternatives.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Well I didn't say no construction would be required, just less and simpler. But I'm fine with the Taunton solution, too. I just don't think the full build rail solution makes financial sense for the expected ridership.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm also not sure how you make the connection at the 93/95 split in Braintree and then connect to the existing HOV lane where it starts after the Rt 3/93 split. Seems the bus would have to cross all lanes of the highway at some point.

In other parts of the country, where they are more serious about HOV lanes, this kind of crossover is done with a dedicated HOV flyover ramp.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

A few follow up thoughts:

1) I'm not dismissing the HOV idea out of hand. I do think it would take a bit of work though particularly between the aforementioned 24/93 and 3/93 splits. A flyover as was mentioned would have be built somewhere along the way. There might also need to be some widening along 24 especially as it approaches 95/93.

2) Big mistake IMHO, and no doubt the result of political pandering, is addressing NB and Fall River together in this project. They are two different sets of issues. New Bedford just seems easier and their pols have it together a little bit more. Also anecdotally I've seen more work being done on the tracks and bridges in NB than FR.

3) Lastly if you want to think long term, New Bedford's port serves not only the fishing industry, but it runs the ferries out to the Cape and Islands. Much like the Cape Flyer gives people an alternative to being stuck in Cape traffic in season, with some state aided promotion you could make the connection from South Station to the public pier in NB where the ferries depart from. The end of the line train station is pretty close by. Might be better than trying to catch the ferry in Falmouth during the summer.
 

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