Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Another hypocritical fact I point to is the massive footprint of RT 495 between RT 24 and RT 95. We could build a four track mainline down the median, let alone the shoulders.
And all the wetland areas it crosses with no five mile bridge.

D
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Another hypocritical fact I point to is the massive footprint of RT 495 between RT 24 and RT 95. We could build a four track mainline down the median, let alone the shoulders.
And all the wetland areas it crosses with no five mile bridge.

D

Yeah can someone (ok, F-line obviously) briefly explain why doing Tanton-FR-NB 'in sequence' using the 495 median isn't a better option than doing FR & NB 'in parallel' as two legs of an open triangle? Might that have at least some advantages for frequency, scheduling, etc.?

Full disclaimer - i agree with a lot of you that there's no way that this should be a transit priority for the state, but if we ARE going to talk about, why is that routing not an option?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Yeah can someone (ok, F-line obviously) briefly explain why doing Tanton-FR-NB 'in sequence' using the 495 median isn't a better option than doing FR & NB 'in parallel' as two legs of an open triangle? Might that have at least some advantages for frequency, scheduling, etc.?

Full disclaimer - i agree with a lot of you that there's no way that this should be a transit priority for the state, but if we ARE going to talk about, why is that routing not an option?

You can do the FR & NB branches as a packaged pair, but there's no way anything gets built if you don't figure out the "How the hell you gonna get there from Boston first" part that the Task Force isn't even attempting to figure out...because it's not serious about building this after they've grifted all they can grift.

The Middleboro Alternative is not "How you gonna get from Boston?" It was eliminated way, way early on because it can't provide the frequencies or the schedule times, would cause punitive service cuts to the 3 existing branches, and pretty much preclude MUCH cheaper and more cost-effective Cape rail from ever happening at service levels worth a damn. It would also flat-out cost more to do the Savin Hall fix and wage a swath of destruction through downtown Quincy to get contiguous DT than doing the Stoughton alternative. Note how artfully they buried the lede on the initial M'boro Alt. announcement: it requires a $1B lane-widening of the entire SE Expressway as a project prereq. Now why in the hell would an asphalt cocaine bender be shotgunned in with a commuter rail project? Right...because the Greenbush and Plymouth Lines are BOTH going to get their frequencies utterly plundered to non-functioning uselessness by all the slots FR/NB has to outright steal to make that white elephant work.

The Army Corps FEIR...that fraudulent FEIR...didn't even waste paper calling the M'boro route D.O.A. So why are we chewing more scenery doing this rope-a-dope? Because there's more grift to be had from the same people who never intended to get this built.


It's simple. Challenge the fraudulent FEIR. The FTA will enthusiastically help them. $1B instantaneously disappears from the now-$3B total cost through shedding the electrification and the swamp causeway. Poof!...just like that. Double-tracking ends the insanity of whacking Stoughton's and Canton's service levels with skip-stop smoke and mirrors. Actually factor in the NEC needs (pretty much accounted for by Amtrak for its own service increases) and 128 station goes back on the board. Stop assuming Franklin schedules are an immovable object and enough slots can be comfortably carved out. 32 round-trip trains per day to Taunton...to-be subdivided at Phase II to 16 per branch with none of those BS 2-hour gaps or unidirectional-only peak schedules leaving zero reverse-commute options. That is the same number of round trips that Newburyport and Rockport split, and that Franklin and Foxboro would split. It's a little bit more than the 3-way Old Colony split that only doles out 12 each to M'boro, Plymouth, and Greenbush (in case you want further proof at how D.O.A. that "Alternative" is).


Get the shovels in ground here on the mainline after you've cut that bullshit and put it through GLX fat camp, and start moving onto the branch planning. Can you take what's an insta-reduction to $2B and find $500M more to chop in the whole package? Can you use the Taunton, then cities phasing to buy more time for bolts-tightening on the branches so long as you're solid enough on the mainline costs to start building? The FTA will probably up its likely commitment from $500M to $750M calling that "good enough", then it's a 50/50 split for $750M each on the total Phase I+II package. Is that so bad? All you did was toss out the bad actors and the pretzel logic that has consumed this project from the inside out and installed competent project managers who know you have to get from Boston first before you can get to FR & NB. It's not magic. Letting go can actually set 'ya free. It most certainly will put the South Coast closer to having real transit than persisting with this barely-transit fiction until the grift runs out and everybody cuts-and-runs. So why not give a shot at the thing that will deliver the original, non-perverted promise? There's nothing to lose by trying except maybe half the project cost.
 
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Connect it to Providence.

Am I missing something, or is this the screamingly obvious elephant in the room that makes this project even more infuriating, when piled on top of all the other boondoggle-y [fraudulent] aspects

A commuter rail line that ran Downtown Providence--East Providence--Seekonk--Swansea--Fall River--New Bedford would be all of 28 miles to have to approve/permit/engineer/build/run/maintain. I can't speak to any of the environmental, sociocultural, geopolitical, and other quirks/nuances/oddities relative to such an initiative.

All I can say is that, in my mind's eye, these communities are obviously within the "natural" greater Providence economic hinterland, no?

If so, then why in the hell is their obvious linkage to that ecosystem being shunted (literally) in the completely bass-ackwards opposite direction? Am I just being too logical because this is all about politics?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong--if there are binders full of statistics demonstrating Fall River/New Bedford is demonstrably "yoked" to Boston instead of Providence. I respect that matters of pride/prejudice/politics inevitably cloud the glass here. But still I'm curious...

Also, from a sheer infrastructure standpoint, I'm interested if the I-195 corridor happens to co-occupy a still extant ROW... or if it wasn't built along an old railbed. I've never looked out for evidence of that on the rare occasions I've driven east of Providence, but I'm certainly intrigued if it's the case.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Also, from a sheer infrastructure standpoint, I'm interested if the I-195 corridor happens to co-occupy a still extant ROW... or if it wasn't built along an old railbed. I've never looked out for evidence of that on the rare occasions I've driven east of Providence, but I'm certainly intrigued if it's the case.

If you play around with Google maps, you can find an old right of way extending west from New Bedford, less than a half mile north of I-195, then over near Fall River it crosses under and is south of the highway as they approach Watuppa Pond. It looks like I-195 and route 6 pretty much obliterated it on the causeway that crosses the pond. Then in Fall River you can see what looks like a rail trail for a while.

I don't know where it crossed the Taunton, and between Fall River and Providence I can't pick it up again on aerial view. Maybe 195 wiped it out; if so, there's a lot of median for much of the path. But I've seen that line shown on old maps, part of the Old Colony RR, perhaps.

I agree with you that FR and NB seem way more in the orbit of Providence, geographically and economically; I've never seen the traffic counts. I was involved once with a HUD-financed development in New Bedford, and the funding / inspection stream was from the Providence HUD office, rather than Boston, which was odd. Those days are over with the HUD office consolidation but there were other deals in the Fall River / New Bedford area that the Providence office ran. Hell of a lot shorter ride out there for them than it was for me.

ETA: here's a map of the Old Colony RR, shows this line:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Colony_Railroad#/media/File:OC1893.jpg

I think it was way farther to the West than I was looking: i believe the East Bay Bike Path through Barrington is the old ROW that fed Providence / Fall River.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The East Bay trail runs most of the way from east Providence to east Warren on the legacy ROW. The rest is abandoned/encroached/eaten by 195 through to Fall River. After Fall River, the legacy ROW reemerges and is still pretty much intact out to New Bedford.

("Minor" niggle- figuring out how to reconnect the NEC to the Providence tunnel without nuking that area of downtown)

Compare traffic on 24 vs 195 in this chart.
ftp://ctps.org/pub/CTPS_Map_Library/daily_traffic_volume_2005.pdf
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Sorry, could've answered my own question last night quite quickly: if I'm interpreting this correctly then yes, Providence and New Bedford are officially in Providence's economic orbit primarily... then the greater Boston economic orbit secondarily, a dual designation/status since 2006:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providence_metropolitan_area#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area

Incidentally, the Boston economic orbit/hinterland, as constituted by its CSA, extends 94 miles northwest (via I-93) to Laconia, NH; 115 miles southeast (via Rtes. 3, 6) to Provincetown; 95 miles southwest (via I-90, I-395, and Rte. 6) to Windham, CT; 58 miles northeast, to Portsmouth, NH (via I-95); and 79 miles west (via I-90, Rtes. 128, 2, and 32) to Petersham, MA. That's kind of a cursory/shorthand way to sketch out the perimeter, I suppose, but it's always neat to examine these geographies...
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Sorry, could've answered my own question last night quite quickly: if I'm interpreting this correctly then yes, Providence and New Bedford are officially in Providence's economic orbit primarily... then the greater Boston economic orbit secondarily, a dual designation/status since 2006:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providence_metropolitan_area#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area

Incidentally, the Boston economic orbit/hinterland, as constituted by its CSA, extends 94 miles northwest (via I-93) to Laconia, NH; 115 miles southeast (via Rtes. 3, 6) to Provincetown; 95 miles southwest (via I-90, I-395, and Rte. 6) to Windham, CT; 58 miles northeast, to Portsmouth, NH (via I-95); and 79 miles west (via I-90, Rtes. 128, 2, and 32) to Petersham, MA. That's kind of a cursory/shorthand way to sketch out the perimeter, I suppose, but it's always neat to examine these geographies...

DBM -- Good Observation

However -- there is nothing what so ever that says each of the manifold cities and towns must be connected to Boston by the "utopian one seat ride"

For many reasons it makes a great deal more sense to create major sub hubs which are well connected to Boston with high frequency service. Thus if you are near to providence you take a local to Providence and then transfer to high speed high freq service to Boston

Similarly, lf you are near to Worcester, or Lowell you do the same to those subhubs

No rationale exits for spending what it takes to connect FR an NB directly to Boston for the hypothetical small number of commuters
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

DBM -- Good Observation

However -- there is nothing what so ever that says each of the manifold cities and towns must be connected to Boston by the "utopian one seat ride"

For many reasons it makes a great deal more sense to create major sub hubs which are well connected to Boston with high frequency service. Thus if you are near to providence you take a local to Providence and then transfer to high speed high freq service to Boston

Similarly, lf you are near to Worcester, or Lowell you do the same to those subhubs

No rationale exits for spending what it takes to connect FR an NB directly to Boston for the hypothetical small number of commuters

Well, yeah... that's why I argued a few posts above that it would make more sense to have a Providence--New Bedford commuter rail line, roughly traversing the I-195 corridor, versus the SCR proposal. Please revisit my earlier post and you'll see we're in agreement here, as far as I can tell.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Well, yeah... that's why I argued a few posts above that it would make more sense to have a Providence--New Bedford commuter rail line, roughly traversing the I-195 corridor, versus the SCR proposal. Please revisit my earlier post and you'll see we're in agreement here, as far as I can tell.

I agree too: far better to subsidize the operating expenses of, say 4 daily r/ts that ran
New Bedford
Taunton
Attleboro
Providence
[Shore Line East]
New Haven

...same as the CT River Valley's going to get.

And then seasonal/weekend trains:
NY Penn - Providence - Taunton - Middleboro - Cape Cod
NY Penn - Providence - Taunton - Fall River

south-coast-rail-project.gif


If I had an extra billion for capital costs, I'd unpinch the Old Colony Lines and extend the Middleboro line to Taunton and cram it full of high capacity, high frequency service. (if I had frequencies to spare, it'd split and go to both Taunton and Wareham)
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Not seeing the Providence commute. Even if it was considered, that group in Norton
(CCATS) would rise up again and kibosh it. Not to mention the element in Taunton
raising the fear factor of their city being "cut in half". As I said in a letter to the Taunton Gazette years ago, you'd think MBTA trains were tattooed with "666", roaming around looking for hapless motorists and their precious "children".

It feels so hopeless sometimes....
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The line from New Bedford to Fall River was the Fairhaven Branch; it ended at Plymouth Ave about a kilometer from the Old Colony mainline on the waterfront, and was never connected to it.

And reactivating the line between Providence and Fall River would require building a major new bridge, just for starters.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

...indeed.

If the answer to 'but how do you get therefrom Boston' is 'standing in the aisle for 25 minutes on an express electric train on the nec after transferring across the platform in providence' then I think that's ok (and it's better than the red line!)
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

No...The line from New Bedford to Fall River was/is the Watuppa Branch (13 miles long).
The Fairhaven Branch ran from Tremont to Fairhaven and never connected to New Bedford.

Any Providence service mentioned in this thread, would be north to Myricks, Cotely Jct through Taunton to Attleboro, then down the NEC to Providence.

D
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The problem of course is the bit about jurisdiction and authority

The T doesn't have authority in its charter which enables it to feed riders into Providence except for the Providence to Boston run

As a result some sort of agreement would need to be negotiated between MA and RI as to who pays for what, etc. -- Not insurmountable -- just another matter to be addressed if you route through Providence

Best solution now is robust and frequent service into Taunton with buses picking up in New Bedford, Fall River, U Mass Dartmouth, etc.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The reasons you don't have any extant rail E-W rail lines paralleling I-195. . .

  • The Warren Branch out of Providence was carried over the Taunton River by the movable Slades Ferry Bridge, a lower-level road, upper-level rail bridge between Wilbur Ave. rotary in Somerset and Remington Ave. in FR (rail level abandoned 1938; demolished 1972). From Day 1 the bridge was extremely weight-restricted and too weak to carry early- 20th c. locomotive-pulled steel trains, so PRV-FR service only ran with gimp locos and wood coaches...then a short-haul electric commuter shuttle running wood EMU's under wires (basically, a glorified trolley interurban). All of the heavyweight intercity steam trains from New York that took all of NYC's richest to their Newport mansions had to go around-the-horn route instead: the ex- Amtrak Cape Codder route to Attleboro and downtown Taunton, then the Somerset Branch (basically the southern continuation of the Stoughton Line, crossing into Fall River on a drawbridge @ Mallard Point). And because the electric line ended at Fall River Depot it took a transfer to the Boston-originating north-south commuter trains to continue on to Newport.
When the Depression hit the Old Colony division hard and ridership on the commuter shuttle took a hit, they had no routes to consolidate all traffic to. So the electric Warren Branch got whacked because of that weak bridge that couldn't take any freight or non-shuttle passenger service. The freight between the RI state line and Somerset dried up too quickly for there to be any chance at landbanking, so it's only preserved in RI and completely one-million percent obliterated in Somerset.

  • The Wattupa Branch runs E-W between downtown New Bedford and Plymouth Ave. in Fall River, where it stubs out. Still active today NB to the MA 88 underpass in Westport, landbanked by MassDOT late-80's in FR after one of the end-of-line mills burned down. Old Colony meant to infill the last half-mile gap to the mainline by the river, but never got around to it. Then I-195 came along in the 50's and the City Hall air rights in the 60's, with no side reservation provisioned for filling the gap. So there was never real rail service between Providence and New Bedford except for the existing around-the-horn route via Attleboro-Taunton because of this chintzy gap, and no rail service between FR and NB except for a dinky to Plymouth Ave. isolated from Fall River Depot and any other transit options.

  • The Fairhaven Secondary and New Bedford main likewise stared at each other straight across the cove at separate loading docks with no foresight by the Old Colony to connect them. They probably could've done rail-with-road on the US 6 Popes Island bridge complex, with northern realignment of the Fairhaven Sec. from the Sconticut Neck Rd. grade crossing. But they let a couple generations of Popes Island crossing rebuilds come and go without ever acting on it, and let the abutting land on 6 get too built up to keep a future path open.


Consequently, you never had a means of consolidating enough traffic on one route to keep it all open through the mid-century decline. Providence-Fall River (direct, electric), Providence-Newport (indirect, steam), Providence-New Bedford, Providence-Cape Cod, and Fall River-New Bedford took FIVE different routings on five different schedules. With no real union stations collecting together these routes: the downtown Taunton station for the around-the-horn routes missed transfers to Boston, you had to walk across downtown to get between Fall River Depot and the FR-NB shuttle station, and frequencies from FR Depot to Taunton for transfers to NB and Cape were weak because most of the N-S traffic was Boston commuter trains that missed that particular Taunton station.


So you had the traffic profile of what should've been a major passenger and freight corridor Providence-Provincetown that: 1) should've retained trace passenger traffic until the same era (1958) that the 4 Boston commuter schedules lasted to FR/Newport, New Bedford, Hyannis via Middleboro, and Woods Hole via Middleboro; 2) should've retained trace seasonal intercity traffic into the Amtrak era and been one of the first modern (a la Cape Codder) revival routes picked back up; 3) should've been the primary freight route across the region keeping it all daily-active to the present. But there was never a contiguous corridor here...just this half-assed collection of parts that came oh-so-close but never connected because the Old Colony wasn't well-managed, especially during the 75 years to 1969 it was a wholly-owned subsidiary of the NYNH&H monopoly. The only fully contiguous E-W transportation route from Providence to the Cape for 300+ years from early colonial times to I-195's opening in 1955 was US 6. They were 98% of the way there on rail links but hemmed and hawed too long about the downtown Fall River gap and completely forgot about Popes Island. And that was that when the RR expansionary era came to a sudden halt in the 1929 market crash.



Did some very crude editing of the Old Colony system map on Wikipedia, with annotated legend of key lines.

Color code:
Purple = active passenger lines + SCR preferred alternative
Red = active freight/misc. lines
Maroon = converted to rapid transit (i.e. Ashmont/Mattapan)
Green = out-of-service non-abandoned lines
Yellow = abandoned, landbanked by state
Grey = abandoned, property lines extinguished
Dashed = line continues out-of-picture

This is what we started with, and ended up with in real life:
6fowg5.jpg



This is what we probably should've ended up with if just 3 itty-bitty things happened:
-- strengthen Slades Ferry Bridge
-- close Wattupa-FR Depot gap
-- close NB-Fairhaven gap

See magenta for the South Coast-specific lines with two green links for the gap-filler...and note the completely different slate of lines that would've been abandoned vs. kept. (Also threw in some other official passenger proposals in regular purple...but that's just extracurricular).

9tofv8.jpg


Oof!...that's just tragic. Could've consolidated everything at Fall River Depot as the union station for the whole South Coast where N-S Boston trains to Newport and New Bedford met E-W Providence-Cape and Amtrak Cape Codders. As well as the act as the freight crossroads for that region from the direct feed off the P&W main from East Providence. The straighter and somewhat more densely-populated Somerset Branch would've continued the Stoughton mainline, allowing abandonment of the branches through the empty Freetown State Forest. Consolidating the track miles and to just that crossroads at FR Depot + bare essentials probably would've allowed it all to survive the postwar crash and interruption in commuter rail service. Probably would've never completely lost service to Woods Hole because the ferries would've been that much more robust. Probably would've seen Amtrak come back to Cape Cod sooner than 1986, and stay there permanently. Probably would've never seen the Stoughton Line completely cut, meaning commuter rail by 1997 not 2297 and probably re-inaugurated service to Newport by 2010. Probably would be seeing RIDOT commuter rail back to Newport in quick succession after they get Woonsocket up in running...instead of never because the around-the-horn route is too indirect.


One thing you'll immediately notice is what bugfuck route duplication the Old Colony had all around its map. This is what they spent their capital on instead of fixing those chintzy little broken links that left us 3% shy of a complete and everlasting Providence-Hyannis corridor. It's a wonder they ever made it out of the 19th century solvent with such an easily distracted corporate attention span. But it's a goddamn travesty what didn't even survive the first half of the 20th c. because of those tiny links they brainfarted away. :(
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

^Alot of the yellow lines have been converted to bike paths. For excample the Bruce Freeman rail trail and the Cape Cod rail trail.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

^Alot of the yellow lines have been converted to bike paths. For excample the Bruce Freeman rail trail and the Cape Cod rail trail.

Irrelevant factoid. Landbanking means the rail charter is intact in perpetuity and legally protected in perpetuity. The fact that nine-tenths of the yellow on those maps have no real-world reactivation potential worth wasting a Crazy Transit Pitch on is entirely beside the point. Legal status is legal status is legal status...now and forever.


Unfortunately it's the total-loss gray that prevents South Coast from ever having the consolidated corridors it should. You're never putting the Warren Branch back together in MA, and 'off-roading' re-creations along power line ROW's and I-195 are very ugly-looking and nowhere close to worth the price. Fairhaven's too built-up to spur off that intact ROW across Popes Island to New Bedford...blocked forever. And even if the I-195 canyon in FR were given a Wattupa Branch side reservation if/when that mistake of a City Hall gets knocked down and the Warren ROW were somehow re-created...the kajillions all that de-landbanking and all-new construction would cost would not produce sustainable E-W traffic justifying it unless Providence, Fall River, New Bedford, AND Cape Cod were all served on a single 195-corridor schedule with Fall River Depot being the union station crossroads of diverging N-S Boston & Newport traffic. 2 out of 3 links isn't enough demand to float the megaproject cost...and all 3 links are 1000% physically impossible to re-create.

It's a tragedy. The railroad literally wasted 120 years of its ownership monopoly over the entire South Coast rail network to each and every individual destination here kicking the can over and over again on the measly half-mile in downtown FR and the measly Achushnet River crossing that would've made it a complete super-corridor. The very first thing every chartered RR in the region--including the Old Colony's own mainline--went after were the revenue streams of the tolled colonial turnpikes. All of the turnpikes except the Boston Post Road spur from Providence to Cape Cod Canal along present-day US 6. That's not something a 19th century railroader robber barron "forgets" or loses interest in when they're 3% shy and have already built bigger drawbridges and tunnels all over the rest of the corridor. It literally defies explanation and everything we ever knew about the whole world economic history of for-profit private transportation that there was never 'A' completed rail corridor from Providence to the Cape replicating the turnpikes.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

You're never putting the Warren Branch back together in MA, and 'off-roading' re-creations along power line ROW's and I-195 are very ugly-looking and nowhere close to worth the price.... ...the kajillions all that de-landbanking and all-new construction would cost would not produce sustainable E-W traffic justifying it ...

Well...if the baseline is the $2B+ estimate for the swamp train to Taunton, then maybe there's at least some hope? [/rhetorical]

Thanks as always for the great info. (And there's another interesting story told in your maps about a framingham hub & clinton / fitchburg branch on the worcester route....for another day i guess ...)
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

One wonders if light rail of some sort would eventually be palatable - something close to the early-20th-century interurbans. Instead of trying to plow through on fully-dedicated ROW with 2% max grades, you can get 4% grades and use city streets where necessary. Single-track with passing sidings.

If you're able to use the 195 median in the open space between Providence and FR, the Watuppa Branch between FR and NB, and the Fairhaven Branch + power line ROW between NB and Wareham, and city streets in the built-up areas, you're not looking at very much truly ugly construction. Approaches to use the Route 6 bridges across the rivers would be the big part. Battery-electric light rail, which is beginning to reach the 'actual systems are using it' phase, would mean no expensive and disruptive catenary.

Of course this is all still Crazy Transit Pitches level. But vastly more feasible than any kind of conventional commuter rail between the cities.
 

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