Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[ant8904]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

There's 5 of us involved in this discussion so far, Rover. Given that 2 are neutral-to-positive on SCR. Process of elimination means I have to respond that I don't see the classism when I necro'ed this thread.

It is a rational question to ask when you know this project is estimated to cost $3 Billion, yet this is the one transit project that I don't see foot dragging from the state. Other projects keep getting press and advocacy groups continually pushing for the project and outcries when the state tries to quietly do things like not include funding for studies or release results with questionable numbers.

But this one, I just don't see them. I don't see positive comments on UHub or Reddit (or a lot here). I can look up and find a grassroots Facebook group tracking GLX or advocating BLX but the best I can find for SCR is the FB page run by the state.

SCR seems to have real desire from the state, but I can't see any grassroots advocacy or positive chatter (though I can concede that lurking on Reddit, UHub, and certain FB group could be a bubble - But then they should still exist on the internet somewhere, and would be able to read about them when the news talk about public meetings). Meanwhile the projects that has advocacy (that I do see) is getting a snail's pace traction at best.

Remember, for the $3 Billion that is the SCR estimation now. GLX rebid ~$1 billion (and I think it is most of worked despite already spending ~$1 Billion before), BLX last estimate is $900 Million, and Red-Blue Connector is latest estimate at $750 million. And still have $350 million to spare.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The push for SCR feels totally political -- buy $3 Billion in political capital in the South Coast Region (look what we are doing for you!).

It is clearly not about $ per transit passenger (or general commuter, since transit benefits drivers too) affected. If it were, there would be shovels in the ground already on the Red-Blue Connector.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

There's 5 of us involved in this discussion so far, Rover. Given that 2 are neutral-to-positive on SCR. Process of elimination means I have to respond that I don't see the classism when I necro'ed this thread.

It is a rational question to ask when you know this project is estimated to cost $3 Billion, yet this is the one transit project that I don't see foot dragging from the state. Other projects keep getting press and advocacy groups continually pushing for the project and outcries when the state tries to quietly do things like not include funding for studies or release results with questionable numbers.

But this one, I just don't see them. I don't see positive comments on UHub or Reddit (or a lot here). I can look up and find a grassroots Facebook group tracking GLX or advocating BLX but the best I can find for SCR is the FB page run by the state.

SCR seems to have real desire from the state, but I can't see any grassroots advocacy or positive chatter (though I can concede that lurking on Reddit, UHub, and certain FB group could be a bubble - But then they should still exist on the internet somewhere, and would be able to read about them when the news talk about public meetings). Meanwhile the projects that has advocacy (that I do see) is getting a snail's pace traction at best.

Remember, for the $3 Billion that is the SCR estimation now. GLX rebid ~$1 billion (and I think it is most of worked despite already spending ~$1 Billion before), BLX last estimate is $900 Million, and Red-Blue Connector is latest estimate at $750 million. And still have $350 million to spare.

I'm not sure that whoever has the loudest advocacy group is the best way to measure a project. Pure speculation on my part but the politically connected people in and near Boston are probably better at playing that game, particularly in regards to public transit, than those who live 60 miles away.

Next, the project has been talked about at least since Weld got elected, which was 1990. If that's not foot dragging, I'm not sure what is.

Finally, I'll come back to it again. Nobody that I'm aware of is saying that this project should crowd out any others. However logistically it seems less complicated and disruptive than Red-Blue or BLX as its using (for Phase I) existing tracks. Lets say ridership issues are indeed a problem. Then don't build Phase II as the residents of "Southcoast" are going to have to put up or shut up, as anybody does in a rail expansion (the aforementioned Greenbush for example). But, Red-Blue, BLX, GLX, etc are all projects designed to make commuting more convenient for people who already have public transit options. That's not the case for this project and it seems worth the $935M they're spending on Phase I.

 

[ulrichomega]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I think the bigger issue is that even at the current price tag it's still being half-assed. Phase I means horrible travel times and bottlenecking through the OC, and is a good way to kill the ridership that the project could get if it were done properly. If they build Phase I they don't have to build Phase II once the ridership that they purposefully crippled doesn't appear.

The proper solution is to not overcrowd the already crowded OC line with two more lines (five lines going through a single track!). The proper solution is to give transit access to these communities that desperately need it. Phase II needs to be Phase I, and Phase I needs to either be built later as a capacity-booster or not at all.

 

[Coyote137]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

This project is at the front of the line for entirely political reasons.

 

[Java King]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The proper solution is to not overcrowd the already crowded OC line with two more lines (five lines going through a single track!). The proper solution is to give transit access to these communities that desperately need it. Phase II needs to be Phase I, and Phase I needs to either be built later as a capacity-booster or not at all.

Exactly! The same negative statements are used for OC lines like Greenbush. The number of riders never appeared and it's a failure in many people's minds. However, the MBTA crippled it from the VERY start! ........and now you are adding 2 more lines on the SINGLE track. Insanity. At the VERY least, this should have been an opportunity to double track the ENTIRE OC main line. Then, I "might" be a little more in favor........but it's still a crazy amount of travel time on this route.

 

[Rover]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Exactly! The same negative statements are used for OC lines like Greenbush. The number of riders never appeared and it's a failure in many people's minds. However, the MBTA crippled it from the VERY start! ........and now you are adding 2 more lines on the SINGLE track. Insanity. At the VERY least, this should have been an opportunity to double track the ENTIRE OC main line. Then, I "might" be a little more in favor........but it's still a crazy amount of travel time on this route.

Aren't they running a continuation of the Middleborough bound trains to FR and NB more or less, instead of adding more trains on top of what the tracks are already being used for?

This project is at the front of the line for entirely political reasons.

I'm not sure I understand the logic being applied here. Charlie Baker is in his early 60's and may or may not run for re-election again and 3 terms in a row is unprecedented I believe. What's the political gain to be achieved? He'll most likely be out of office before Phase I is done, and he'll certainly be gone before Phase II ever came to fruition. Same thing with any local yokel politician from the South Coast who's currently in office.

 

[ant8904]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Pure speculation on my part but the politically connected people in and near Boston are probably better at playing that game, particularly in regards to public transit, than those who live 60 miles away.

I want to quote this line that there's a bit of a contradiction the "politically connected" are "better at playing that game" meanwhile SCR is the project that is moving forward.

I'm not sure I understand the logic being applied here. Charlie Baker is in his early 60's and may or may not run for re-election again and 3 terms in a row is unprecedented I believe. What's the political gain to be achieved? He'll most likely be out of office before Phase I is done, and he'll certainly be gone before Phase II ever came to fruition. Same thing with any local yokel politician from the South Coast who's currently in office.

Well that's the rub I'm trying to express. As you should notice, a lot responses here are negative - ...on archboston, probably one of the most train-wanting website on the internet. But this is the one project you can actually find dissension. But it's not just here, same goes when I read discussion on UHub, Reddit, or Boston Globe (the Herald too, but they hate everything). Meanwhile while I can find grassroots Facebook groups for projects like GLX, BLX, or Red-Blue (I even found a dying Arborway group), not so much for SCR (unless you count the state run page). And same goes with the press and advocacy groups.

So the projects that have all kinds of press and political groups pushing for certain projects struggle to even keep studies stay properly funded (and neutral). But the one transit project that the press and various groups are either quiet to even hostile, that's the project that when it hits a speedbump, that's the project that makes state gives responses like they will overcome the issue rather than start to pull out and have to be rescued the sheer outcries of various groups.

So one would think that it has to be political. Like votes for Baker or the "yokel politicians" in office as you said. But then since the political gains are so far removed. That also doesn't make sense.

So why is this the one project the State wants so much?

 

[jklo]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Figure someone with real estate investments near the stops bribed the right people to get SCR done. That's why the Big Dig happened and why GLX eventually happened, and why something like Red-Blue likely won't.

SCR is actually worse than useless if you take into consideration that they might have to ditch the Needham line because of a space crunch at South Station.

 

[DominusNovus]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Figure someone with real estate investments near the stops bribed the right people to get SCR done. That's why the Big Dig happened and why GLX eventually happened, and why something like Red-Blue likely won't.

SCR is actually worse than useless if you take into consideration that they might have to ditch the Needham line because of a space crunch at South Station.

Couldn’t those with property along Red or Blue do the same? Suffolk Downs redevelopment certainly would benefit from Red-Blue.

 

[Tallguy]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Figure someone with real estate investments near the stops bribed the right people to get SCR done. That's why the Big Dig happened and why GLX eventually happened, and why something like Red-Blue likely won't.

SCR is actually worse than useless if you take into consideration that they might have to ditch the Needham line because of a space crunch at South Station.

Not really ditch. The Orange Line will cover the south and Green Line the north. Only Hersey is SOOL. And that will happen eventually to accomidate Amtrak increases.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Couldn’t those with property along Red or Blue do the same? Suffolk Downs redevelopment certainly would benefit from Red-Blue.

Can we not go too deep down the "deals only happen due to public corruption" rabbit hole that jklo burrowed down? Unless someone has specific allegations to make of course.

 

[DBM]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

So why is this the one project the State wants so much?

Because these are the last two official "Gateway" cities in Eastern Mass. that don't enjoy commuter rail service to Boston. All the others--Haverhill, Lowell, Lawrence, Fitchburg, Worcester, Brockton--have benefited from whatever positive impacts CR service bestows, for decades.

We toss around the "Gateway city" phrase so much that it becomes trite--but the fact is, in policy and planning circles, the Gateway caucus strikes me as being pretty important. They all compare notes, right? They're all acutely self-conscious of which ones are perhaps "pulling away" from the others, and how that may or may not be due to the implementation of attractive new infrastructure assets.

My apologies of this has all been noted upthread, but I'm not sure it has.

Also, as I've mentioned upthread, I'll repeat--from a geographic standpoint, to me it seems Fall Reeve and New Bedford are being CR-tethered to the wrong metropolis. They are 47 and 50 miles, respectively, on a line to Boston--yet just 14 and 29 miles, respectively, on a line to Providence. But F-Line has explained why there's a vital missing piece of infrastructure that will prohibit a commuter rail line from ever striking out eastbound on the I-195 corridor, despite what I presume are great population densities along a segment that encompasses East Providence, the Barrington/Warren/Bristol agglomeration, Swansea, Fall Reeve, and then NB.

 

[jklo]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Because there aren't much in the way in good jobs in Providence. Doesn't really make sense.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It continues to surprise me that Gateway and regional cities in New England aren't starting to absorb more of Boston's business overflow. Worcester, Providence, Brockton, Lowell, etc. all ought to be booming with startups and incubators that have trouble affording Boston, yet, they aren't. The likeliest conclusion is probably god-awful transportation between them and Boston. Bad transportation nullifies geographic proximity.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It continues to surprise me that Gateway and regional cities in New England aren't starting to absorb more of Boston's business overflow. Worcester, Providence, Brockton, Lowell, etc. all ought to be booming with startups and incubators that have trouble affording Boston, yet, they aren't. The likeliest conclusion is probably god-awful transportation between them and Boston. Bad transportation nullifies geographic proximity.

THIS. EXACTLY.

The opposition to this project is not because anyone thinks Fall River and New Bedford are unworthy gateway cities. God no. It's because this build runs bad, no-good, awful transit at a degree that will substantially inhibit usage. Phase II is also very bad, only marginally-better transit that will substantially inhibit usage until the state goes back and addresses all the bad capacity assumptions it made about the NEC and challenges the Army Corps' political sandbagging of double-track through the swamp. The worst thing about bad transit is that by artificially lowering demand through its brokenness, the excuse to never fix or improve it is built-in as a "feature".

How long have we been screaming to get the Silver Line fixed? Does the fact that it has such rage-inducingly poor flow out the Transitway--maybe not to a totally useless degree, but much too hobbled for for doing its job--end up compelling a fix because the Seaport is a gateway neighborhood? No...chance after chance for a "T Under D" stuffed into a transpo funding omnibus has come and gone, and we have another flare-up of rampgate every year or two to the same preordained conclusion. They're done caring once the brand-new thing is built. It takes generations to fix what they screwed up on it.

That's where this is going. RER is being actively sandbagged, so the Dorchester pinch on the OC comes off the hook as a priority fix. They've got their ready excuse to never mount Phase II, because they'd have to get the swamp EIS tossed when the Army Corps is hard to work with and have to advance NEC capacity improvements hand-in-hand with Amtrak who they don't get along with. No RER means the degree of difference between Very Broken Phase I and Mostly Broken Phase II isn't jarring enough to compel action. And when people to/from the gateway cities can't take these trains because the schedule options are too limited AND the trip times are too long AND the overcrowding from mainline to terminal is too extreme AND it costs a Zone fare much too high for all those limitations...the state, not a few posters on ArchBoston, are going to be the ones quietly alleging that the gateways weren't really geteways and we should put a halt on further investment.

Phase I is the only train service these cities are ever going to have. It's not a stepping-off point to better things. It's an end unto itself. That's the con involved by foisting bad, no-good transit service on that region in the guise of a teaser and being politically "owed". There isn't going to be a way to climb out of this uselessly bad service threshold. Everyone who claims to be listening now will be long gone by the time the advocacy comes for adding the additional frequencies needed for these lines to achieve some measure of equitable jobs access.

 

[jklo]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It continues to surprise me that Gateway and regional cities in New England aren't starting to absorb more of Boston's business overflow. Worcester, Providence, Brockton, Lowell, etc. all ought to be booming with startups and incubators that have trouble affording Boston, yet, they aren't.

The whole point of startups is to make the founder (and VCs...) rich on the backs of college kids who don't know any better. Boston has lots of college kids... Fall River does not. Going cheap on office space means like Waltham, not something like Fall River.

 

[FK4]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

THIS. EXACTLY.

The opposition to this project is not because anyone thinks Fall River and New Bedford are unworthy gateway cities. God no. It's because this build runs bad, no-good, awful transit at a degree that will substantially inhibit usage. Phase II is also very bad, only marginally-better transit that will substantially inhibit usage until the state goes back and addresses all the bad capacity assumptions it made about the NEC and challenges the Army Corps' political sandbagging of double-track through the swamp. The worst thing about bad transit is that by artificially lowering demand through its brokenness, the excuse to never fix or improve it is built-in as a "feature".

How long have we been screaming to get the Silver Line fixed? Does the fact that it has such rage-inducingly poor flow out the Transitway--maybe not to a totally useless degree, but much too hobbled for for doing its job--end up compelling a fix because the Seaport is a gateway neighborhood? No...chance after chance for a "T Under D" stuffed into a transpo funding omnibus has come and gone, and we have another flare-up of rampgate every year or two to the same preordained conclusion. They're done caring once the brand-new thing is built. It takes generations to fix what they screwed up on it.

That's where this is going. RER is being actively sandbagged, so the Dorchester pinch on the OC comes off the hook as a priority fix. They've got their ready excuse to never mount Phase II, because they'd have to get the swamp EIS tossed when the Army Corps is hard to work with and have to advance NEC capacity improvements hand-in-hand with Amtrak who they don't get along with. No RER means the degree of difference between Very Broken Phase I and Mostly Broken Phase II isn't jarring enough to compel action. And when people to/from the gateway cities can't take these trains because the schedule options are too limited AND the trip times are too long AND the overcrowding from mainline to terminal is too extreme AND it costs a Zone fare much too high for all those limitations...the state, not a few posters on ArchBoston, are going to be the ones quietly alleging that the gateways weren't really geteways and we should put a halt on further investment.

Phase I is the only train service these cities are ever going to have. It's not a stepping-off point to better things. It's an end unto itself. That's the con involved by foisting bad, no-good transit service on that region in the guise of a teaser and being politically "owed". There isn't going to be a way to climb out of this uselessly bad service threshold. Everyone who claims to be listening now will be long gone by the time the advocacy comes for adding the additional frequencies needed for these lines to achieve some measure of equitable jobs access.

For fucks sakes, man, why don’t you write an op ed in the globe? You have the knowledge to actually explain this shit to people who care. This sounds like a true disaster and essentially worst case scenario.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The whole point of startups is to make the founder (and VCs...) rich on the backs of college kids who don't know any better. Boston has lots of college kids... Fall River does not. Going cheap on office space means like Waltham, not something like Fall River.

I... didn't mention Fall River in my post...

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

For fucks sakes, man, why don’t you write an op ed in the globe? You have the knowledge to actually explain this shit to people who care. This sounds like a true disaster and essentially worst case scenario.

He should submit to the Herald News (Fall River) and the Standard-Times (New Bedford), plus Commonwealth Mag...