Fantasy T maps

[cooper]

Three words/terms that should never be pluralized are 'Boston Garden', 'Boston Common', and the word 'anyway'.

Anyway(z), Oustanding vision @wolfinator !! Very impressive

 

[JRL3289]

Lost my original file for my "in another universe" map from years and years ago, so decided to create a new version.

Here's how it started (2012-ish is when I would have worked on it):

And how it's going:

Taking an approach that's more like a combination of NYC (different services noted by distinct numbers/letters but sharing a same color based on a trunk route that is used) and Paris (overall color palette and network density).

 

[Riverside]

Great to see you again, @omaja! Your maps from ~10 (!) years ago have remained a source of inspiration (which I'm sure is visible in many of my ideas which have built on yours). The new map looks fantastic, I'm eager to see the rest!

More specifically, the map looks fantastic both aesthetically as well as conceptually. Your H rightfully draws attention to the 86, which does surprisingly good ridership down to Reservoir. Your T addresses one of the largest gaps in the system (one that we accept as a foregone conclusion can never be filled): Back Bay <> Kendall. I continue to appreciate your use of the Grand Junction as a trunk line with diverging branch lines (your original map being, I think, one of the earliest examples I remember seeing of "breaking up" the Urban Ring), and conceptually like the idea of running A and Arborway Line services into that trunk (although obviously IRL I think that would pose reliability challenges.) And is that a Kenmore Model for Roxbury-Dorchester running out of Nubian? (I feel like a bit of a hack linking my own work, but the phrase is useful!)

(And I like the idea of an NSRL bore that hits the Seaport!)

 

[JRL3289]

Thanks, Riverside!

I've never really liked the Urban Ring as proposed because it feels too tightly constrained (especially if it were ever to be rail)... breaking it up into more lines that provide more unique combinations of direct and one-connection routings makes more sense in my mind.

You are correct about Nubian - the trunk splits into local routes to Egleston, Mattapan and Ashmont. The basic idea is a reincarnation of the streetcar network that used to serve the area. Here's what I have going for that:

 

[Riverside]

I've never really liked the Urban Ring as proposed because it feels too tightly constrained (especially if it were ever to be rail)... breaking it up into more lines that provide more unique combinations of direct and one-connection routings makes more sense in my mind.

Yeah, this goes back to my thesis that the Urban Ring is really about building radial networks for Longwood and Kendall. (Obviously not exclusively, but I think first-and-foremost.)

Yeah this looks really cool!

• I like how much your map has lines that start in one direction and then just keep plowing ahead in that direction. Your T is a good example of that, as is the P you've drawn out here
• You've piqued my interest with those Granite Branch services!
• Are the M, N, R and Q grade-separated? (Would you consider visually differentiating routes based on grade separation?)
  • The R and M reflect something I was thinking about the other day: in general, Boston's southern higher density "built-up" limit runs diagonally from Waltham to South Quincy (not a perfectly straight line but that's the overall thrust -- take a look at @Teban54's density map and kinda blur your eyes and you can see it), with Dorchester + Mattapan + Hyde Park (and to a lesser extent, Roslindale) creating a unique southerly "protrusion" of the density.
  • If we assume that density generally maps to need for transit, and we assume that transit should be available in two dimensions (not just single dimensional radial lines running north-south), that necessarily entails that Dorchester + Mattapan + Hyde Park ("Dorchesmattapark?") will have short crosstown lines that ping back and forth between the Red and Orange Lines. These lines might look extravagent (crazy transit pitches in their own right) because they're short, but I think that's a perception worth interrogating
• I like the interaction between the 1 and L through Dorchester, both visually and from a planning perspective. The L acknowledges Dorchester Ave as a primary axis for the community, while the 1 provides an express bypass
• One other "fantasy T map" idea I've been chewing on is a "Red X" design similar to your "Mass Ave Bypass" approach, but which instead runs through Back Bay and Kendall.
  • From Kendall, this line could continue to Inman Sq before turning west to hit Harvard, after which it could continue to Watertown or Arlington (or wherever you have your Braintree service running to right now)
  • This would provide doubled capacity to Harvard while still serving Kendall and providing a Harvard <> Back Bay 1SR.
  • You could have your South Boston T service cut over to Mass Ave to pick up the lost corridor and then switch back over to Inman (crude sketch below)

(I hadn't been planning to sketch out all of the lines but)

 

[JRL3289]

Riverside - I liked the idea of swapping the Mass Ave and Dartmouth Street lines, so did that in the latest of my working map.

Also went a little crazy with reworking more of the "Green Line" system in Cambridge and Somerville to bring back more of the lost streetcar network in those cities. Added in some other cross-town options for Everett and Chelsea, too.

Most of the new letter lines would be street-running or at-grade, except for areas where streets would be too narrow or the transitions would require some sort of grade separation. The idea of such a dense network would be to modernize street infrastructure (smart signals to start) and minimize single-occupancy vehicle traffic along the corridors. Haven't decided how exactly to do this without making the map appear too busy, but I'll play around with maybe a white line "cutting" the route line in half.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Finally got around to making a revised fantasy map, featuring a new Urban Ring design, more regional rail, more streetcars, more colors, and more Brockton.

 

[Riverside]

^ The light rail branch lettering scheme alone is chef's kiss.

(I'm sure I'll come up with a longer reply soon enough!)

 

[TheRatmeister]

Note: The omission of Chinatown was not intentional, I apologize to Chinatown.

 

[ritchiew]

Finally got around to making a revised fantasy map, featuring a new Urban Ring design, more regional rail, more streetcars, more colors, and more Brockton.View attachment 60249

There's a lot of neat ideas in there.
One thing I'd change that stands out right away is stopping the Blue Line at Kenmore. Having a full HRT line to downtown is so incredibly valuable, you'd want to extend that as far as makes sense to take full advantage of it. There have been lots of proposals here for how to do that, like retracing the old A train to Watertown, or following the Pike in parts. The easiest way to extend the Blue Line without disrupting other plans on you map would be to extend it from Kenmore, down Brookline Ave, to at least Longwood. Past there there are options to Brookline Village or JP. Stops along the way to Longwood would serve Fenway and give a transfer to your Circle Lines.

I feel like any corridor with this kind of bus density is screaming out for a subway line.

 

[KCasiglio]

Small design notes, I think including Chelsea Creek would help visually clarify that the yellow line isn't going from Charlestown to East Boston. Also it seems like the Braintree and Quincy Center connections between RL and regional rail are indicated differently than the rest of the map.

On a service note, no Peabody branch?

I love a lot of these concepts, particular the branching teal line, I don't think I've seen anything like that before.

One question, how do you envision the Ruggles to Nubian routing? Is this deep boring under Madison park? I imagine Ruggle St is too narrow to fit in a cut-and-cover.

 

[TheRatmeister]

There's a lot of neat ideas in there.
One thing I'd change that stands out right away is stopping the Blue Line at Kenmore. Having a full HRT line to downtown is so incredibly valuable, you'd want to extend that as far as makes sense to take full advantage of it. There have been lots of proposals here for how to do that, like retracing the old A train to Watertown, or following the Pike in parts. The easiest way to extend the Blue Line without disrupting other plans on you map would be to extend it from Kenmore, down Brookline Ave, to at least Longwood. Past there there are options to Brookline Village or JP. Stops along the way to Longwood would serve Fenway and give a transfer to your Circle Lines.

I feel like any corridor with this kind of bus density is screaming out for a subway line.

View attachment 60254

The Existence of bus routes like this in an UR world doesn't necessarily make the corridor a good fit for an extension. UR access to Longwood is pretty good on this map, so the main benefit would be giving BL riders a OSR to Longwood. I don't think that's worth a billion dollars given the many 2SR opportunities, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

On a service note, no Peabody branch?

Fair point, I should think about what to do with it.

One question, how do you envision the Ruggles to Nubian routing? Is this deep boring under Madison park? I imagine Ruggle St is too narrow to fit in a cut-and-cover.

You need to deep-bore that part, no getting around it. Ruggles needs to be pretty deep so that also doesn't help in that regard. To be honest though, I don't think it matters that much. The cost-discreptancy between bored tunnels and C&C is smaller than people generally think because of all the utilities work that needs to happen, the main benefit is shallower stations and 1/2 relevant stations here wouldn't take advantage of that.

 

[ritchiew]

UR access to Longwood is pretty good on this map, so the main benefit would be giving BL riders a OSR to Longwood. I don't think that's worth a billion dollars given the many 2SR opportunities, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

I don't think I agree. Your UR line would have a Longwood stop on Fenway, right? (Sorry if I'm misinterpreting that.) That would useful for some people for sure, but that's not the heart of LMA. The highest density for jobs and patient destinations is centered along Longwood Ave, and it's no contest. Having a few people walk an extra 5-ish minutes can be fine, but not when it's a lot of people trying to get to Longwood Ave. And especially not when the destinations are hospitals, and the potential riders will skew older and with more health and mobility problems. Again, you can see the draw of Longwood Ave in the current bus network. If stops along Fenway were "good enough," then these buses could just run along Fenway. Instead, all these buses do a time consuming and (and thus expensive) detour to get to Longwood Ave, because that's where people actually need to go.

And it is a lot of people. It's a mini downtown. This says it's 112,000 people go to LMA every day. That's a couple hundred thousand trips every day. I don't know about the $1B price tag, but even if 7-8% of people then take the Blue Line to LMA, that's a pretty reasonable cost/rider.

If you still don't think it'd be worth extending the Blue Line to LMA, that's fine. The extension to Kenmore is a worthy goal on it's own. But it'd be worth further extending the Blue Line somewhere. A rapid transit line that goes downtown and connects to all the other rapid transit is just so incredibly valuable. You could extend it in any direction to give more people OSR to downtown or the airport. Or it could take over a Green branch for faster trips and higher capacity, plus better frequencies on the remaining Green Lines. There are a lot of good options. I don't know which is best.

One question, how do you envision the Ruggles to Nubian routing? Is this deep boring under Madison park? I imagine Ruggle St is too narrow to fit in a cut-and-cover.

@TheRatmeister might be right that you need to deep bore. But there was a suggestion a bit of discussion here for how to cut and cover that segment. I feel like other ideas have come up on this forum, but I can't find them immediately. I couldn't say how practical that is. And if you were already deep boring other nearby sections, it would be best to just deep bore this one, too, obviously.

 

[TheRatmeister]

I don't think I agree. Your UR line would have a Longwood stop on Fenway, right? (Sorry if I'm misinterpreting that.) That would useful for some people for sure, but that's not the heart of LMA.

This would probably need to be a deep-bored section so there's no reason to cop-out like that. My crayon-location has been the HMS Quad since that offers a worksite.

And it is a lot of people. It's a mini downtown. This says it's 112,000 people go to LMA every day. That's a couple hundred thousand trips every day. I don't know about the $1B price tag, but even if 7-8% of people then take the Blue Line to LMA, that's a pretty reasonable cost/rider.

I'm not disputing that loads of people want to go to LMA. That's the whole reason the UR makes a point out of serving it, even if other routing would maybe be cheaper. What I'm not sure about is how many of those people are coming from East Boston, Lynn, or beyond. However, given how many people you see at GC during rush hour, it could very well be more than I'm thinking. I have also realized that the option of just converting the Brookline Village-Kenmore segment to heavy rail is an option, and that would probably do pretty well on cost. I think that's the direction I'd probably be going with a longer Blue Line.

@TheRatmeister might be right that you need to deep bore. But there was a suggestion a bit of discussion here for how to cut and cover that segment. I feel like other ideas have come up on this forum, but I can't find them immediately. I couldn't say how practical that is. And if you were already deep boring other nearby sections, it would be best to just deep bore this one, too, obviously.

I do remember that, and I'm sure you could absolutely construct the line that way. What I can also be pretty sure about is that it wouldn't be worth it given the number of extra landowners who need to be roped in, the disruptions that would come from construction, and as always the utilities work. Especially when one station needs to be located under the cutting at Ruggles, and Nubian could warrant a double-stacked station too if an underground light rail station is included.

 

[ritchiew]

This would probably need to be a deep-bored section so there's no reason to cop-out like that. My crayon-location has been the HMS Quad since that offers a worksite.

I see, that's where I was confused. Yeah, then I agree, your UR would serve LMA really well. A Blue Line extension to LMA still might be reasonably, but that'd me a much weaker case than I was saying.

 

[samsongam]

I love your maps @TheRatmeister, so good at retaining the current style of the T map while bringing a bunch of interesting ideas. I like the lean into street cars, it gives a good look at all rail transit options.

One of the things i've been thinking about as I work through my own map is what necessitates branding a new line. In your example, why wouldn't the Emerald Line be a branch of the Green Line and why are Pink, Yellow, and Aqua all different when they presumably would be using the same (or at least very compatible) rolling stock and interlining for significant portions. When the precedent has been set by our modern Green (Copper) Line branches system, my thought is that we would use branches for other colors too if they shared enough similarities (Keeping E Branch instead of Emerald and something like Yellow Line X,Y, Z instead of 3 different colors). Granted, this creates a whole lot of green line branches so I do like what you've done to separate out B,C,and D to Longwood ( I think that the nature of these branches is also different enough to warrant a different color since presumably they would be slower speeds above ground and older. But then I think that your Green Line to Nubian should probably be copper as well unless you are doing more deep bores).

You need to deep-bore that part, no getting around it. Ruggles needs to be pretty deep so that also doesn't help in that regard. To be honest though, I don't think it matters that much. The cost-discreptancy between bored tunnels and C&C is smaller than people generally think because of all the utilities work that needs to happen, the main benefit is shallower stations and 1/2 relevant stations here wouldn't take advantage of that.

The Ruggles to Nubian part is no doubt a big undertaking. I was previously thinking that a C&C through Madison Park field would be the most cost-efficient but i've started to wonder about the need to directly hit Nubian where it is now at all on a UR. Melnea Cass looks like a much easier corridor and what are you really missing out on. If the main thing is the bus transfers, all of the major bus routes to Nubian either terminate at Ruggles (15,23), cross Melnea Cass (1, 12, SL/future light rail down Washington) or they parallel the UR route towards LMA (22,28,66). There are jobs around Nubian square but there is a lot of planned and in-progress development in that space between the station and Melnea Cass (BFIT, 2147 Washington, Nuba Residences, Nubian Ascends). I definitely think the Silver Line light rail conversion should go all the way to Nubian at least but is the cost and stress to dig under/ through all of Lower Roxbury necessary for the UR? With Melnea Cass you can go elevated or C&C presumably easier and it's only a 6 minute walk to Nubian. One of the reasons i'm in favor of UR as light rail is that you can elevated over Melnea Cass with fairly low obstruction and you have the option to use the upper busway at Ruggles for UR now. My main point is that I don't think Nubian is enough of a necessary transfer hub that it would require the immense effort of running UR underneath it when you could just transfer at Ruggles or Washington Street.

I have also realized that the option of just converting the Brookline Village-Kenmore segment to heavy rail is an option, and that would probably do pretty well on cost. I think that's the direction I'd probably be going with a longer Blue Line.

I agree that in this map Longwood is very well served so it probably doesn't need Blue as well, but where would the longer extension after Brookline Hills even go? I feel wrong even thinking about sending more transit to South Brookline, Newton and Needham. You save some money on the ROW (and some tunnels maybe?) to get to the Longwood stop but further than that we've talked before about how expensive it would be to convert all of those D line stations to Blue line standards. Really long term I like the idea of sending it to West Station. In a Logan APM world you'd get a good trip to the airport for Worcester/Framingham/ East-West Line users transferring at West Station, and the possibility to go all the way to Watertown and Waltham (Take over Aqua Line/ Pink Line).

 

[TheRatmeister]

I like the lean into street cars, it gives a good look at all rail transit options

Boston was built as a streetcar city, we can rebuild it (or at least make some changes to it) as one.

One of the things i've been thinking about as I work through my own map is what necessitates branding a new line.

vibes

But more seriously, I generally do it by looking at which routes share a common 'trunk.' all the GL branches go through the Tremont St Subway, all the CL branches use the Boylston St Subway, all the TL branches converge at Franklin Park, etc.

Why are Pink, Yellow, and Aqua all different

You could make pink and yellow two branches of the same line, for example. I just don't think there's much point in doing that since you still have another line leftover, so you'd need at least two lines anyways. And if you're doing two, why not just do 3?

all of the major bus routes to Nubian either terminate at Ruggles (15,23)

Those routes terminate at Ruggles because the OL moved. If you look at the streets, Nubian is the natural junction of Washington St, Warren St, and Dudley St, which is why so many routes used to terminate there. For a station designed to be a transfer point between a Washington St LRT, a Warren St LRT, local buses, and the UR, Nubian is basically the perfect spot. The other thing to consider is station size. Nubian has a big footprint, and for good reason. Finding similar space at Melnea Cass would be pretty difficult. Distance comparison would be something like .9 miles via Nubian, or .6 via Melnea Cass. Not a huge difference that would justify building a whole new megastation in an area without existing development, IMO.

and you have the option to use the upper busway at Ruggles for UR now

Sure, but you then need to immediately descend into a tunnel to get to Longwood, ad doing that while connecting to the busway looks like a pretty big challenge.

I agree that in this map Longwood is very well served so it probably doesn't need Blue as well, but where would the longer extension after Brookline Hills even go?

I don't think it really needs to go further than Brookline Village, but my preferred option would be to go to Brighton via Coolidge Corner.

and the possibility to go all the way to Watertown and Waltham (Take over Aqua Line/ Pink Line).

This is what I did with a previous map, but I think the 1-2 punch of Longwood and Kendall makes an UR 'branch'(?) the better option. And it saves a lot of tunneling.

 

[jbray]

@TheRatmeister, I have a few questions:

- Why wouldn't the D line, which is very short on your map, not interline with the Teal line to Mattapan? Is it a ROW thing where the Green line is grade separated and the Teal Line is street running?

- How do you justify sending both the Chelsea and Everett lines through Cambridge? Wouldn't an urban ring on the Grand Junction Better serve that Gold line while also freeing up a Chelsea subway to head downtown?

- Given that we just yeeted BU West out of existence, why should we put it back for the Pink and Aqua lines?

- A question I asked on reddit but got the colors wrong (I said Teal): Where is the ROW space for the pink and Aqua lines at Brandeis/Roberts?

- I asked there as well about Winchester Center for the GLX and you pushed back about density and the inability to put two stations at West Medford. Let me be more specific in my question: Why shouldn't we replace all of the commuter rail stations between Winchester Center (itself becoming a Hub) and the current end of the GLX with Green line? Add one at Grove street as well as the Route 16 station and you've got a service that nicely meets the density while also making Lowell to Boston faster and eventually NH to Boston faster. Local vs regional service.

 

[TheRatmeister]

- Why wouldn't the D line, which is very short on your map, not interline with the Teal line to Mattapan? Is it a ROW thing where the Green line is grade separated and the Teal Line is street running?

The length and lack of people making the full trip given the availability of the Fairmount Line as an alternative make running the line all the way to Mattapan not an appealing option from an operations perspective. However, running it to Franklin Park would make sense as that area is not very accessible via the Fairmount Line, so more people would be taking the line all the way to Downtown.

- How do you justify sending both the Chelsea and Everett lines through Cambridge? Wouldn't an urban ring on the Grand Junction Better serve that Gold line while also freeing up a Chelsea subway to head downtown?

I assume you mean better serve the Aqua Line? The Yellow Line is the Chelsea subway. The rationale is that it's a 1SR to both Longwood and Kendall, which combined, to my knowledge, are roughly equal in terms of jobs to Downtown. Building anything in Downtown is insanely difficult because there's just nowhere to work, so the 'easy' option seems more appealing here. There's still a lot of additional capacity to be had on the Orange Line in the future as well, probably around 2x the current service plus gains from walk-through trains, so the transfer burden should be manageable. The busway can also be used to mitigate this by actually using it in a way that's well suited for buses, running feeder services across Chelsea, Revere, and Everett onto the busway for a fast trip to Airport. A ramp connecting the busway to Broadway would be very useful for this.

- Given that we just yeeted BU West out of existence, why should we put it back for the Pink and Aqua lines?

Agganis is really not close to BU Central, it's around .6 miles as the crow flies or more like .75 miles on the ground, around 15 minutes walking. And BU West wasn't cast into the shadow realm, it was replaced by Amory St which is basically right where BU West was, just on the other side of Amory St.

- A question I asked on reddit but got the colors wrong (I said Teal): Where is the ROW space for the pink and Aqua lines at Brandeis/Roberts?

For the most part, just next to it. At the station itself you've got around 80ft of width available which is enough for 48ft of track and then 30ft of platform. It would need to come at the expense of some amount of parking however.

- I asked there as well about Winchester Center for the GLX and you pushed back about density and the inability to put two stations at West Medford. Let me be more specific in my question: Why shouldn't we replace all of the commuter rail stations between Winchester Center (itself becoming a Hub) and the current end of the GLX with Green line? Add one at Grove street as well as the Route 16 station and you've got a service that nicely meets the density while also making Lowell to Boston faster and eventually NH to Boston faster. Local vs regional service.

I've actually re-changed my mind on West Medford since then, as someone pointed out it is wide enough for an island GL platform and at least one passing CR track. But in terms of why not further, because the ridership is really bad. Most of the land around Grove St is either cemetary or water, neither particularly likely to be developed in the future, apart from maybe some fish condos. (Unfortunately however due to the usual lack of water in trains, this service does not serve those very well.) Wedgemere is a little better but even if it's ridership doubled with the Green Line, somethiing I'd view as unlikely looking at the surroundings, that's still only ~600 pax per day. However, if the alternative is just closing Wedgemere, maybe it would make sense. That just leaves Winchester Center, where it would be possible to take over the parking lot for a GL station. I can't imagine we're looking at more than 1,500 new daily riders for the segment north of West Medford, and I just don't see a way for the costs to possibly be low enough to make that value proposition work, especially with #80 bus service feeding into Whittemore (Arlington Center) station, and with the possibility for new local routes to feed into Winchester Center.

 

[bigeman312]

Riverside - I liked the idea of swapping the Mass Ave and Dartmouth Street lines, so did that in the latest of my working map.

Also went a little crazy with reworking more of the "Green Line" system in Cambridge and Somerville to bring back more of the lost streetcar network in those cities. Added in some other cross-town options for Everett and Chelsea, too.

Most of the new letter lines would be street-running or at-grade, except for areas where streets would be too narrow or the transitions would require some sort of grade separation. The idea of such a dense network would be to modernize street infrastructure (smart signals to start) and minimize single-occupancy vehicle traffic along the corridors. Haven't decided how exactly to do this without making the map appear too busy, but I'll play around with maybe a white line "cutting" the route line in half.

View attachment 60184

Love it.

A note: Clarendon Hill and Alewife Brook Parkway are switched. In fact, you are probably better off doing away with the Alewife Brook Parkway stop altogether. It's less than 300 ft from the Clarendon Hill Busway, while the next two stops' spacing on the C-Branch are 1,900 ft and 4,000 ft each. Allen St and Cleveland St are the highest ridership stops between Arlington Center and Clarendon Hill, so Arlington Center -> Allen St -> Cleveland St -> Clarendon Hill -> Teele would hit higher ridership stops and have much more consistent stop spacing. FOod for thought.