Federal Funds for South Station Expansion

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

In the next 15 years under current bureaucratic system. This is far less crazy of a project than the Big Dig, and while our system currently favors extravagant automobile construction over transit construction, I could see a direct, underground North-South Connector in the 20-50 year out range, as long as its done incrementally.

Bigem -- as Bill Clinton famously if prematurely said "The era of Big Government is Over"

Unless the return to the cities movement is successful in altering the suburb + exurb to city balance of power in state legislatures the U.S. Congress is not going to favor city-centric spending in the new era of tighter budgets -- particularly for so-called discretionary spending

if there is no money from the taxpayers siphoned through DC and little interest in the Mass Legislature for core infrastructure spending -- your only realistic hope is "sponsored infrastructure" [e.g. New Balance] including the grand daddy of them all -- the potential for the Boston Games in 2024 coupled with land made available through open-road tolling
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

EGE -- NO that's the problem -- there is already the better part of 100 feet under that's committed for Highway, Red Line, Silver LIne

Because of that existing layer cake -- the proposed [not likely to happen] Rail Link would have to either do a whole lot of 3D threading or go way down

3D Treading is more possible than in the past -- but there are constraints about how sharp the bends and changes in grade can be to have a chance

Deep requires deep under SS platforms that have to connect with banks of elevators to the existing waiting room and services and more importantly mean extremely long approaches

Not going to happen

They already dealt with this in the DEIR documentation and, yes, they can thread through the stacks of tunnels around SS. The probable tunnel grades are also established since it's more or less locked into a set footprint, and all the construction disruptions are spelled out in the report. Nothing to speculate about here on the feasibility...it is feasible. The only alternative routings to decide between are which side of SS to swing around to get on-alignment with I-93's footprint: Dewey Sq. or straddling Dot. Ave. and the Channel. The Dot Ave. flank appears orders of magnitude less disruptive to the surface and to building foundations, so it's unlikely the Dewey Sq. alternative would get a recommended rating in a subsequent prelim EIS.




As for station access and depth, that's much more a strike against deep, narrow, heavily constrained Central Station than it is SS. SS sprawls to 3 different levels today spread across that entire block. A deep-level station under the Dot Ave. side will have numerous egress points to spread out the passenger flow to the Red and Silver levels, to the main station lobby, to the Dot Ave. surface expansion side. Not every escalator is going to be Porter-depth or be packed into one set of shafts for constrained passenger flow. They'll be spread all over and in varying lengths depending on where else in the station it's connecting to.
 
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Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

They already dealt with this in the DEIR documentation and, yes, they can thread through the stacks of tunnels around SS. The probable tunnel grades are also established since it's more or less locked into a set footprint, and all the construction disruptions are spelled out in the report. Nothing to speculate about here on the feasibility...it is feasible. The only alternative routings to decide between are which side of SS to swing around to get on-alignment with I-93's footprint: Dewey Sq. or straddling Dot. Ave. and the Channel. The Dot Ave. flank appears orders of magnitude less disruptive to the surface and to building foundations, so it's unlikely the Dewey Sq. alternative would get a recommended rating in a subsequent prelim EIS.




As for station access and depth, that's much more a strike against deep, narrow, heavily constrained Central Station than it is SS. SS sprawls to 3 different levels today spread across that entire block. A deep-level station under the Dot Ave. side will have numerous egress points to spread out the passenger flow to the Red and Silver levels, to the main station lobby, to the Dot Ave. surface expansion side. Not every escalator is going to be Porter-depth or be packed into one set of shafts for constrained passenger flow. They'll be spread all over and in varying lengths depending on where else in the station it's connecting to.

F-Line -- You might be right on the technical details -- I'm going to stand on my statement -- "Not Going to Happen"

However, I think the link is ready to "Store under" -- "Not Going to Happen" -- the same category as Silver Line Phase III --- with the one proviso being the Olympic Games

Any money available for Transit not already spent several times -- will go to fixing real problems of the existing system not fulfilling Crazy Transit Pitch wishes
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

^ Your hardon for the Olympics could be seen from space...
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

F-Line -- You might be right on the technical details -- I'm going to stand on my statement -- "Not Going to Happen"

However, I think the link is ready to "Store under" -- "Not Going to Happen" -- the same category as Silver Line Phase III --- with the one proviso being the Olympic Games

Any money available for Transit not already spent several times -- will go to fixing real problems of the existing system not fulfilling Crazy Transit Pitch wishes

True, true, true. But fiscal feasibility is a very different thing from engineering feasibility. You were co-mingling the two there, and that's really not how it's going to go. They know exactly what kind of tunnel they're going to build because there's only one tunnel they can build (and that de facto includes taking the Dot Ave. approach around SS vs. the Dewey Sq. approach when all is said and done). Those costs are a lot more exacting to pin down if the pick the studies back up vs. the Urban Ring (esp. Phase III) which still has parts not well-fleshed out or Silver Line Phase III which was still doodling with alt alignments at the time of its cancellation because of all the problems with impacts around the Common.

Where the Link is going to be variable is simply on how many bells and whistles they would want to select in the base build from the excessive kitchen sink studied in the initial scoping. Does it need a Central Station at all? (I'm going to take an educated guess this is Cut #1.) Do they build all 3 south portals + the north Fitchburg portal at once, or will it be just the single-shot covering the majority of traffic with the others punted to later tack-ons (probably the major 'hard' decision to debate)? Do they build all 4 tunnel tracks and both sides of the main bore at once, cut it down to 2 tracks in 1 berth only and forever, or start with both side-by-side caverns dug but only 1 of them (w/2 tracks) occupied at the start and the other left empty for a deferred build. How much surface electrification happens right at the start: do they shoot for complete wires on several key lines and dual-modes on the lesser-used branches or have to ration to only partial wire a short distance out the tunnel with majority of lines needing to get by with dual modes until separate funding can individually extend the wires?

THOSE are the big value propositions they have to debate vis-a-viz taking it from a "never happen" too-much-to-swallow to a "can happen" compromise. But the tunnel itself and setup of North Station and South Station Under is very much set and a known-known on how the build will break out.



Besides, whigh, I don't know how you can claim "never happen" and in the same breath pump the Olympics as a magic bullet for the infrastructure spending of our dreams. Nobody is disagreeing on the "daunting" or "unlikely" parts, but doesn't your very argument re: Boston 2024 preclude speaking in absolutes?
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

F-line, do you think it would be worth it for them to just do an initial base build on the NS link, for example only one portal north and south, and only dig 1 tunnel (2 tracks)?

Just curious if the benefit of the base build would be justifiable relative to cost. I'm sure its possible (even likely) that they just do an initial base build and save the add-ons for later, just wondering if in your opinion they should go all in if they're gonna do it at all (minus central station, which seems dumb and unnecessary).
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

^ I think if that even they're going to go with only 2-tracks to start, they still have to do the bore for both. It's a one-shot bore.

I think that if a base build is what it takes to get it done, then that's what needs to happen.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

F-line, do you think it would be worth it for them to just do an initial base build on the NS link, for example only one portal north and south, and only dig 1 tunnel (2 tracks)?

Just curious if the benefit of the base build would be justifiable relative to cost. I'm sure its possible (even likely) that they just do an initial base build and save the add-ons for later, just wondering if in your opinion they should go all in if they're gonna do it at all (minus central station, which seems dumb and unnecessary).

I think they have to make some serious cuts or punts to surplus-to-requirement stuff for this to have a snowball's chance of advancing. The kitchen sink is just too much all at once, some parts are arguably not needed at all, some parts lose absolutely nothing by being deferred until later, and the growth of service and ridership is going to be on a multi-decade curve that's far from instantaneous.

-- Central Station as envisioned seems defective-by-design, for reasons discussed at length. That's an obvious cut. I would be willing to place bets on that getting a not-recommended rating in the final studies.


-- The extra portals serve such a small % of the CR audience for the very large % of the total project cost that I don't think they'd be able to do those in a monolith. Doing a single NEC+Worcester to NH Main+Western Route+Eastern Route single shot serves all of the following destinations:
* Newburyport/Portsmouth, NH
* Rockport
* Reading
* Lowell/Concord
* Haverhill/Downeaster
* Fitchburg via Lowell and Ayer
* Providence and all NEC Amtrak
* Worcester and all Inland Amtrak
* Needham
* Franklin
* Stoughton/South Coast/Newport
* Middleboro/Cape Cod via Stoughton-Taunton-Middleboro

Simply leaving tunnel cut provisions and deferring the Old Colony/Fairmount lead tunnels and the Fitchburg portal till later only precludes these CR destinations:
* Fairmount
* Greenbush
* Kingston/Plymouth
* Holbrook/Randolph to Bridgewater
* Belmont Ctr. to Littleton

I don't see how the Old Colony and Fitchburg inside 495 float the extra $1B+ up front, especially when Ayer-Wachusett and Middleboro-Cape Cod are accessible on similar schedules by doing expresses down available alt routes. Not having Fairmount kinda sucks, but at $1B does that buy more mobility for the corridor than doing Urban Ring BRT from Dudley down Melnea Cass intersecting with one of those stations, a true Red Line Ashmont-Mattapan extension displacing the trolley, and a generally thicker net of east-west bus transfers and express buses? At a fraction of the total cost? Dorchester and Hyde Park have much more to gain from better intra- and inter-neighborhood transit than they do going one-seat to the northside 'burbs, so I wouldn't get too obsessed with pretty contiguous lines on a map. They can get that later, but they need connections connections connections sooner.

Besides, if you just leave the tunnel cuts in place where the tracks merge absolutely nothing prevents adding these on later when demand justifies appropriating the money for a separate, more easily digestible extension project. The digging for these extra portals is all under no-man's land train tracks @ Southampton Yard and the southwest side of Boston Engine Terminal, so it doesn't require abutter re-engagement, NIMBY fights, or contentious neighborhood debate to build later. If this extra cost burden is the difference between swallowing the base build at all, don't bite off more than the state can possibly chew when the single portals and no Central Station serve 80% or more of the ridership. That's a no-brainer.


-- As for the main tunnel bore, I do think they need to do both caverns (i.e. one footprint underneath I-93, but a thick center wall separating a 2-track tunnel berth from a 2-track tunnel berth) because passing up that opportunity locks them into only 2 tracks forever. But if they really need to squeeze costs they can only lay 2 tracks and leave the other cavern vacant for the time being. Adding the extra track capacity in a completed tunnel shell is fairly trivial. So are adding new platforms to NS and SS later if the station shells are complete. After all, North Station today has 2 expansion platforms that have never been used. It's not going to be saturation thru ridership from Day 1 when the entire region has been oriented for 150 years into halves. 2 tracks is arguably all you're going to need for the first decade until the electrification network starts to fill in more and the demand crests. The surface terminals are not going away...not by a longshot. If they digest the base build then come back in 8-10 years to expand track capacity it'll track fine with growth. And it offers up more time to ponder whether rapid transit on the other half has higher upside (something they didn't study in the initial scoping, but would want to crunch some numbers on for the second go-around). That's another consideration to debate carefully, but not one they necessarily have to decide before they construct the main tunnel and open it for business. No pressure here.


-- Electrification scope. If you read the DEIR they explicitly state that in no way, shape, or form is it feasible to electrify everything from Day 1. They only specced doing the Lowell Line out to Anderson RTC as a base requirement because that would absorb the sharpest increases in volume. Other lines would only need short segments of wire out the portals, and definitely no further than 128. Thru-running will be heavily dependent on dual-mode push-pull locomotives, simply because there isn't enough time to engineer system-wide electrification. And also no need to with duals being capable, mature technology.

Theoretically it can work just like the Empire Tunnel @ Penn works where the diesel engine gets fired up the very second the train exits the tunnel, meaning the Eastern/Western Routes and Fitchburg can switch modes inside yard limits right outside the portals, Worcester can switch at Back Bay when it diverges from the NEC, all the NEC routes can switch as they peel off the NEC, and Old Colony + Fairmount can just have short lengths of wire ending soon after the portals.

So, basically, electrification priorities can sort themselves wholly on their own merits with few to no outright dependencies on the Link. That helps a lot. There's no need for Transit OCD completism...you can simply have a separate, de-coupled discussion on which ones merit it most. No different than the discussion you can have today about things like electrifying the Fairmount or Worcester. They don't really belong with a Link debate.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Probably stupid question, but are both (or the 4 total tracks) going to be underground at SS and NS? SS may not need to be that deep to dip under the tunnel from where I am thinking, but is NS going to be under the orange line? Does it then come up on the otherside of the charles near the maintenance yard?
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Probably stupid question, but are both (or the 4 total tracks) going to be underground at SS and NS? SS may not need to be that deep to dip under the tunnel from where I am thinking, but is NS going to be under the orange line? Does it then come up on the otherside of the charles near the maintenance yard?

From south-to-north:

-- Portal with 2 NEC lead tracks at roughly Washington St., east of where the current Orange Line tunnel has safely peeled away towards Tufts Med. Ctr. You can see where it'll fit between the Worcester and NEC tracks. Tunnel descends underneath the NEC all the way to the current curve into SS. By the time it reaches the start of the Pike tunnel it'll be deep enough to slip underneath.

-- The Old Colony portal and Fairmount portals (also 2 tracks each) would go on either side of the Amtrak building at Southampton Yard, then merge north of the building into a single 2-track tunnel. Tunnel stays under the current CR and Red Line tracks through Southampton, Widett Circle, and Cabot Yard. Then meets the NEC tunnel under the curve just like the surface tracks do today.

-- If the Dot. Ave. approach gets picked (likely) instead of Dewey Sq. the junction between tunnels would be about where the north-facing side of the Pike ventilation building is, then continue up Dot Ave. to the underground station roughly at the foot of the Summer St. end of the Post Office building. More or less underneath the headhouse they want to build for the expanded surface station. Spreads out into 6-8 (likely 8) platform tracks straddling Dot Ave. and the Ft. Point Channel to avoid the skyscraper building foundation.

-- Compacts down to 4 tracks after the platforms, tunnel threads around the Silver and Red Line tunnels. Continues up Dot Ave. straddling the Channel. I don't know if this is a unified tunnel bore or separate bores. Curves onto alignment with I-93 footprint at Northern Ave. Since this is close to max depth shouldn't have much impact on the Independence Wharf building foundations.

-- Big Dig space is 2 tunnel bore, with thick retaining wall separating the 2 x 2 tracks. Unlike the 93 tunnel this one will have thick inner tunnel walls poured onto the existing slurry walls, since tracks take up less space than highway lanes. Means the Link tunnel won't have the waterproofing issues the highway tunnel has with its bare slurry walls. This is the place where they have to make an immediate decision on doing both tunnel berths if they ever want to have 4 tracks.

-- Follows 93 to the Valenti Way-Causeway St. block. Then peels out under the grassy knoll between Beverly and Haverhill Streets on-alignment to NS. Another 6-8 platform station on the east side of the building by the Big Dig vent building. Would pass at lower level than the Green/Orange station and probably have an immediate escalator.

-- Platform tracks compress back into 4. Tunnel crosses under Charles, ascends underneath the existing NS approach tracks, spits out on east side of Boston Engine Terminal just before the Lowell Line splits from the Eastern+Western Routes.

-- Fitchburg portal would split off from main tunnel right around Austin St., 2 tracks passing underneath existing surface Fitchburg tracks. Portal on south side of BET, roughly same distance vs. the building as the other portal. Note because the line split is closer to the surface here the extra tunneling required for Fitchburg is way shorter than the mile-plus of tunneling required for Old Colony + Fairmount.




Central Station, if they built it, would be on the I-93 footprint at Aquarium Station.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Ain't gonna be money for a N-S connector after they spend billions armoring the shoreline against increasing sea levels and storm surges. Dikes and barriers are going to chew up civil engineering bucks for decades.

The new, draft flood hazard zone maps for Boston, which, I believe, do not factor in future rises in sea level.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...nto-city/gl4gJqCKtBcCFXprN8P7nL/igraphic.html
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

The N/S link needs to be the centerpiece of a new vision for commuter rail. It doesn't make sense outside that context. Right now, the commuter rail is viewed as having basically one purpose: getting people to and from work within the stereotypical 9-5 workday. Anything outside that scope is ignored.

If I had it my way, I'd have a new plan drawn up for a long-term vision of the commuter rail infrastructure reimagined as a limited stop, speedier overlay of the rapid transit system designed to provide fast, all-day, frequent accessibility within the Rt 128 region and some forays beyond. Wouldn't have to be the entire CR network, just the parts that it makes sense for.

If that were done, then the N/S link is the centerpiece, and it would pay for itself by opening up so many opportunities. But to get to that point, you also need electrification (not the whole network, but significantly inside 128), you need EMUs (eventually, for the fully electrified lines), infill stations, you need major staffing reforms (no more than 1 employee per train, plus roaming inspectors), you'd need to cut down institutional barriers at the T, and real commitment from the planning bureaucracies of the cities and towns which it serves. Probably FRA reform too.

So yeah, a big, big vision. Probably looking at 50+ years. But without it, I don't think the N/S link is worth doing just to shorten the commutes of a few bankers who live on the north side (I'm being flip, but that's basically what the T would do if given the Link and not pushed hard).
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

^ Your hardon for the Olympics could be seen from space...

Busses -- to paraphrase from Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me (1999)

[Noticing Dr. Evil's spaceship on radar]
Radar Operator: Colonel, you better have a look at this radar.
Colonel: What is it, son?
Radar Operator: I don't know, sir, but it looks like a giant...
Jet Pilot: Dick. Dick, take a look out of starboard.
Co-Pilot: Oh my God, it looks like a huge...
Bird-Watching Woman: Pecker.
Bird-Watching Man: [raising binoculars] Ooh, Where?
Bird-Watching Woman: Over there. What sort of bird is that? Wait, it's not a woodpecker, it looks like someone's...
Army Sergeant: Privates. We have reports of an unidentified flying object. It has a long, smooth shaft, complete with...
Baseball Umpire: Two balls.
[looking up from game]
Baseball Umpire: What is that. It looks just like an enormous...
Chinese Teacher: Wang. pay attention.
Wang: I was distracted by that giant flying...
Musician: Willie.
Willie: Yeah?
Musician: What's that?
Willie: [squints] Well, that looks like a huge...
Colonel: Johnson.
Radar Operator: Yes, sir?
Colonel: Get on the horn to British Intelligence and let them know about this.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Ain't gonna be money for a N-S connector after they spend billions armoring the shoreline against increasing sea levels and storm surges. Dikes and barriers are going to chew up civil engineering bucks for decades.

The new, draft flood hazard zone maps for Boston, which, I believe, do not factor in future rises in sea level.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...nto-city/gl4gJqCKtBcCFXprN8P7nL/igraphic.html

Stel -- Don't hold your breath waiting for future sea level rises -- more likely the harbor has to have an ice breaker than we'll ever have to worry about the sea level rising -- the next big change in Climate is a whole lotta COLD -- just of matter of when
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

The N/S link needs to be the centerpiece of a new vision for commuter rail. ....

So yeah, a big, big vision. Probably looking at 50+ years. But without it, I don't think the N/S link is worth doing just to shorten the commutes of a few bankers who live on the north side (I'm being flip, but that's basically what the T would do if given the Link and not pushed hard).

Mathew -- this is the stuff of Crazy Transit Line Pitches -- anytime you are talking 50 year horizons -- that's the time frame for the transformation of:

1) American Built Rite Rubber for Broad Institute
2) West End for Charles River Park
3) Scollay Sq. for Government Center
4) the City for Central Artery for Greenway
5) abandoned piers for New England Aquarium, Rowes Wharf, etc.

No-one realistically can predict what will be the dominant economic activity of any part of the city in 2065 - 2070
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

The N/S link needs to be the centerpiece of a new vision for commuter rail. It doesn't make sense outside that context. Right now, the commuter rail is viewed as having basically one purpose: getting people to and from work within the stereotypical 9-5 workday. Anything outside that scope is ignored.

If I had it my way, I'd have a new plan drawn up for a long-term vision of the commuter rail infrastructure reimagined as a limited stop, speedier overlay of the rapid transit system designed to provide fast, all-day, frequent accessibility within the Rt 128 region and some forays beyond. Wouldn't have to be the entire CR network, just the parts that it makes sense for.

I completely agree. We need to be thinking about this like German S-Bahn type service. Interconnections of near suburbs to near suburbs -- and express connections across the region -- coordinated with local service connections.

"Commuter Rail" is way to narrow a vision for this undertaking, and shortchanges the city.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

^ Sure, but if that means we don't get a tunnel at all what good does it do? We probably can't get all the portals built for at least 3/4 of a century.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

^ Sure, but if that means we don't get a tunnel at all what good does it do? We probably can't get all the portals built for at least 3/4 of a century.

I think you follow F-Line's approach, and start with just the portals that maximize the thru-service potential. Once you get S-Bahn style lines running for some of the thru-service destinations, others will clamor for the expansion portals.

Build all the 2 x 2 tunnel up front, but populate the tunnels as needed as service is expanded.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

As I was googling the NS Link this weekend, I came across an interesting idea I read from a proponent (can't remember where I read it, though I'll try to find it and link to this). The idea was related to SS expansion, and essentially it pushed to build the portal and NS Link-part of South Station under, without digging the entire tunnel to North Station. This would provide the added platforms that SS needs for expansion underground, and also get started on a piece of NS Link.

I know F-line has said that the tunnel to North Station is probably the easiest (cheapest?) part of the whole link, but with limited funds, and SS expansion being higher on the priority list, wouldn't it make sense to expand SS and get started on a piece of the link all in one shot? This way a major piece of the Link gets done, and the tunnel to North Station could still be dug later, this project wouldn't have to preclude that. South STation would also get more platforms, and could still add additional platforms on Dot Ave. after this is finished.

I know this isn't likely to happen, but I thought it was a good idea and would be interested in hearing others' opinions on this.
 

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