Federal Funds for South Station Expansion

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

The main problem I can think of is that you would probably only get to dig one portal and it could only be used by electric traction (i.e. Amtrak) for obvious reasons.

N/S link implies an investment in electrification and/or dual-mode locomotives that the T is not going to be ready to do for a long time.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think giving Amtrak some dedicated underground tracks is going to be sufficient for the needs of the T.

Also another big advantage of the N/S link would be thru-running to increase capacity. You won't need so many terminal tracks at South Station, for any given level of service, if some trains run through. But again, this plan wouldn't get to exploit that...
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Would the through running remove the need for a full on Southside rail yard as has been mentioned? Would BET be able to handle it all efficiently?
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Would the through running remove the need for a full on Southside rail yard as has been mentioned? Would BET be able to handle it all efficiently?

Dear god no. BET is having storage problems today trying to juggle all the new Rotem coaches in the testing line. And that's only going to get worse when the new locomotives start arriving this Spring because none of the to-be-retired equipment is leaving the property until 2016 at earliest. It's plenty big for serving the northside's needs for the next 50 years or more and will probably always be the facility of choice for really heavy repairs, but it has to get relieved of the escalating daily load the southside is putting on it. It also limits what you can do with the Grand Junction the more reliant the system gets on BET because those 1-2 daily moves start becoming 3-6 daily moves if all the DMU's have to live there too.


They not only need to displace that cold storage warehouse at Widett Circle they're targeting now, but 2020-2040 southside growth probably necessitates them land-swapping the Boston Food Market and BTD tow lot elsewhere so they can claim all the remaining acreage at Widett. At least...that's the best thing they could do to serve their 50-year needs all on one site instead of less efficiently spreading things around at Beacon Park and Readville. The amount of space available there is bigger than BET if the private abutters got moved and the whole parcel became TransitTown.

And that maintenance facility idea MBCR floated in vain to The Globe a few weeks ago needs to happen. But probably on Readville land the T already owns instead of that loopy Stop & Shop Warehouse proposal MBCR never spoke face-to-face with the T about. BET definitely doesn't have the space to maintain a large DMU fleet in addition to everything else, and is starting to strain to keep up with the ballooning size of the coach fleet. There has to be a new southside facility handling the DMU's and all day-to-day needs (incl. regular inspections) for the southside coaches. With generous expansion space to expand the complex when electric vehicles enter the mix. Relieve BET's southside responsibilities to just home base for systemwide locomotives, home base for systemwide work equipment, and heavy-repair work on the coaches so it regains room to grow for its northside duties.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

As I was googling the NS Link this weekend, I came across an interesting idea I read from a proponent (can't remember where I read it, though I'll try to find it and link to this). The idea was related to SS expansion, and essentially it pushed to build the portal and NS Link-part of South Station under, without digging the entire tunnel to North Station. This would provide the added platforms that SS needs for expansion underground, and also get started on a piece of NS Link.

I know F-line has said that the tunnel to North Station is probably the easiest (cheapest?) part of the whole link, but with limited funds, and SS expansion being higher on the priority list, wouldn't it make sense to expand SS and get started on a piece of the link all in one shot? This way a major piece of the Link gets done, and the tunnel to North Station could still be dug later, this project wouldn't have to preclude that. South STation would also get more platforms, and could still add additional platforms on Dot Ave. after this is finished.

I know this isn't likely to happen, but I thought it was a good idea and would be interested in hearing others' opinions on this.

The main problem I can think of is that you would probably only get to dig one portal and it could only be used by electric traction (i.e. Amtrak) for obvious reasons.

N/S link implies an investment in electrification and/or dual-mode locomotives that the T is not going to be ready to do for a long time.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think giving Amtrak some dedicated underground tracks is going to be sufficient for the needs of the T.

Also another big advantage of the N/S link would be thru-running to increase capacity. You won't need so many terminal tracks at South Station, for any given level of service, if some trains run through. But again, this plan wouldn't get to exploit that...


There is no reason whatsoever to drop a couple billion dollars on 1 stub lead tunnel and the underground platforms unless you're going all the way through. It's the single most expensive component of the project, and it gets you less new capacity as a stub than the already planned SS surface expansion while being dog slow to boot. Sequencing it that way is an utterly irresponsible way of addressing capacity. If we're front-loading Link infrastructure to save money the way to do it is:

-- Cut Central Station permanently.
-- Cut the extra 3 portals and just build the tunnel walls so they can be grafted on later.
-- One tunnel through-and-through NEC/Worcester to NH Main/Eastern/Western and don't worry about Fairmount, Old Colony, Fitchburg until years later.
-- Pour both tunnel berths under I-93 but leave one of them empty and just 2-track it to start. Leave the empty cavern alone until you're ready and need the extra capacity.
-- Strip the required electrification to the barest essentials. Eastern/Western Routes only need a couple hundred feet out the portal for a dual-mode to fire up the diesel engine on-the-fly. Lowell only needs to go to Anderson to give the Providence Line a thru-running terminus. Worcester only needs to go as far as Riverside to conjoin 2 DMU routes into a super EMU trunk. Decide Framingham or Worcester on the merits if that's better ROI done in a package with Riverside...or just punt that and completing to Lowell/Nashua to Phase II. And don't even THINK about stringing 1 inch of wire elsewhere until the work to Worcester and Lowell/Nashua is done and paid for.

That is a better value than building an underground stub so limited and pornographically expensive that it could inadvertently make the state turtle under Silver Line-style from ever trying to complete the rest. It has no value unless it runs thru from Opening Day.



The terminal expansion does the job just spiffy. More of the capacity comes from eliminating the vast majority of conflicting movements in and out of the terminal than it does from raw # of platforms. Amtraks don't bogart space needed for Stoughtons or Franklins. Nothing NEC steals platform slots away from Fairmount or Worcester. Nothing Fairmount steals platform slots away from the Old Colony. And none of the above block the path for shuffling equipment to/from Widett Circle, meaning trains don't have to lay over out-of-service on the platform any longer blocking other revenue trains. All of this redistributing is critical for introducing the DMU's...you arguably can't do it without this. It's critical for prying open a couple more peak Old Colony slots for Cape service. It's critical for during full saturation Worcester service with overlapping DMU's, Worcester/Framingham locals, and Worcester super-expresses. It's an ironclad requirement for South Coast Rail or any more extensions. And it's the only way to serve Amtrak's growth right up to its 2040 super-HSR vision.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

South Station-Postal Service deal is long overdue
By Shirley Leung | GLOBE COLUMNIST OCTOBER 03, 2014

Rain or snow, the Postal Service always delivers. But not this time.

The state wants to take over the post office’s Fort Point Channel property to make way for a $1 billion expansion of South Station, which sits next door. The federal agency won’t budge, saying the state isn’t offering a rich enough deal for a site in one of the country’s hottest neighborhoods.


How far apart are they? Try $100 million.

The two sides have been talking on and off for a decade — you read that right, more than 10 years. Of late, negotiations have intensified, reaching the highest level of the agency with a meeting involving Postmaster General Patrick Donahoe, US Representative Stephen Lynch, the state’s transportation secretary, Rich Davey, and Massport chief Tom Glynn.

It’s become a classic standoff between two bureaucracies, turning political gridlock into real gridlock, with the losers being all of us stuck waiting on a train platform. What hangs in the balance is more convenience and less stress for thousands of travelers daily. An expanded South Station would usher in a new era of public transit in Massachusetts. Imagine: more commuter rail, more Acelas, even true high-speed trains.

“We have offered so many solutions to the problem,” said Davey. “The time is now to make this happen. All the interests are aligned. At the end of the day, we’re all trying to serve the people of Massachusetts.”

The state is fast losing patience, fearing the Postal Service is trying to run out the clock on the Patrick administration.

‘We have offered so many solutions to the problem. The time is now to make this happen.’

Richard A. Davey, secretary of transportation
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Davey has offered to build the post office a new processing facility a mile away in the Seaport District, close to Logan Airport and with easy access to interstates 90 and 93. To sweeten the deal, he threw in a 1,000-car garage for postal workers.

When that didn’t work, he came back with a new proposal, thinking cash must be king to an agency that has lost $46 billion in recent years. The Postal Service, if you can believe it, said “No thank you” to $350 million. Who knew the Commonwealth had this much money just lying around?

“On a scale of 1 to 10, this is an 8 in the mystery department in why we haven’t been able to work this out,” Glynn said. “They are under a lot of pressure to reduce their losses.”

Glynn is involved because a deal to move the post office would be as complicated as a three-team trade in the NBA. The state would get the post office property, while the post office would move to a site primarily owned by Massport on E Street just off Summer Street. Massport, which runs the airport and port, would get a chunk of postal-owned property on A Street that’s now an employee parking lot.

The official word from the Postal Service is that it’s off-loading a lot of property to boost the bottom line, but the South Boston site isn’t one of the parcels up for sale. Wow, hardball. Not the Cliff Clavin we remember in “Cheers.”

What happened is the Postal Service signed an agreement with the state in 2011 to negotiate a sale, but that pact has expired. The agency, in a statement Thursday, said it realizes the importance of getting a deal done and “has spent millions of its limited funds to move this project forward.”

Postal officials believe the new proposal is a bad one, saying “assumptions of value used by [the state] do not comport with the Postal Service’s required accounting practices.”

Let me translate: We’re desperate, but not that desperate.

The sticking point is over the value of the A Street parcel, a portion of which would be given to Massport in a land swap. The Postal Service, according to the state, pegs the price at about $170 million. Its assessed value is $58 million.


The Postal Service said it prefers the terms of the expired agreement. When I told that to the state, Davey, the transportation secretary, got back on the phone with me and said he’ll gladly honor those terms. What he doesn’t want is for the state to buy the Postal Service’s old house and build it a new one.

“We want to fairly compensate them, but not at all costs,” he said.

Now leave it to Congressman Lynch, fresh from grilling Secret Service chief Julia Pierson — who resigned this week under pressure — to try to get both sides to yes. The South Boston Democrat is the ranking member on the Postal Service subcommittee and is playing the unusual role of peace broker. He was the one who hosted a meeting last month at his Washington office with Postmaster Donahoe and state officials.

Lynch doesn’t think the two sides are that far apart, explaining there’s a lot of posturing going on. That’s what happens in negotiations, something he knows a lot about, having been head of the local ironworkers union more than two decades ago.

“I am trying to get people to a good place,” Lynch assured me Thursday. “We are at the five-yard line.”

He can understand why the Postal Service wants the most lucrative deal possible — it’s hemorrhaging money and is under the close watch of the Postal Service’s inspector general. Lynch has gone as far to suggest the inspector general take a seat at the negotiating table and preapprove any deal.

While Lynch can appreciate that the post office needs to shore up its finances, he doesn’t want that to happen at the expense of the Commonwealth.

“This is different,” he said. “This is a government-to-
government transaction.”

C’mon everybody, let’s make a deal. Snail mail shouldn’t be holding up our high-speed future.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

BostonDrew, you need to provide a link to that article if you are just going to copy and paste it.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Is HSR dependent on a South Station expansion? The article mentions it a few times but I always thought HSR was a track issue that was more or less completely independent of the capacity constraints at South Station. I can see how an expansion would help the economic case for HSR, but I don't see how it would make it possible given the other constraints on the track.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Is HSR dependent on a South Station expansion? The article mentions it a few times but I always thought HSR was a track issue that was more or less completely independent of the capacity constraints at South Station. I can see how an expansion would help the economic case for HSR, but I don't see how it would make it possible given the other constraints on the track.

My understanding is HSR is going to require a dedicated berth at S Station. This takes away a track that can also be used for Commuter Rail, which is a non-starter (since S. Station is already capacity constrained).
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

My understanding is HSR is going to require a dedicated berth at S Station. This takes away a track that can also be used for Commuter Rail, which is a non-starter (since S. Station is already capacity constrained).
No one new service is the straw that breaks the camel's back. (or any one is as guilty as any other).

Its really more like South Station needs expanding "generally" to support a whole bunch of proposed services, but that while they're making it bigger, they might as well segregate the different operations better and have a dedicated HSR "curb" and/or a separate "arrivals" and "departures" curbs.

But because "arrivals" and "departures" don't have their own political force, they went with segregating the HSR (on what is, arguably, the "wrong side" of the building. From a train-conflicts standpoint, HSR should technically be in the middle because it uses the tracks that come from the NEC (think of the NEC as "Southwesterly"), arriving between the West (Worcester) and South (Old Colony & Fairmont) services.

But South Station's need to grow can be blamed on any of:
- additional West service to Worcester
- additional West DMUs to Yawkey/West Station & inside 128
- additional Fairmont "Indigo Line" frequencies (which may be DMU)
- future South Coast Rail
- any growth on any other lines farther in the future
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

My understanding is HSR is going to require a dedicated berth at S Station. This takes away a track that can also be used for Commuter Rail, which is a non-starter (since S. Station is already capacity constrained).

Why? It would be completely insane to "dedicate" a platform to high speed rail.

The rule should be: Any train, any track, any platform. Modulo electrification, of course. This provides maximum flexibility in cases of track or service problems.

We don't have the platform height issues other places have because, for better or for worse, we're stuck with 48" ATOR.
 
Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

HSR doesn't really have any specific bearing on it. It's more NEC growth writ-large and a slowly tightening chokehold being put on every NEC user. The problem is all the cross movements into the station creating a bottleneck for trains getting quickly on/off the platforms.

-- Too many trains on the platform have to hold for conflicting moves while growing NEC traffic forces trains to spread further and further out towards the Dot Ave. side of the station and cross movements with Worcester and Fairmount. Whoever's up first on the arrival/departure gets priority, so it gets pretty hairy at 8:30am and 5:00pm.

-- What gets hit hardest is access to the commuter rail layover at Widett Circle and Amtrak layover at Southampton Yard. The cross movements in/out of the platforms have to get rationed to revenue moves first, and with so many peak-hour revenue moves there's almost no slots for non-revenue moves. So when a platform's got an arrival discharging and the next departure from that platform (because of all the other schedules are higher on the pecking order for cross movements) isn't for another 20 minutes...the idle train is stuck there. It can't scoot into the yard and free up the platform for another revenue train.

-- Amtrak gets hit especially hard by the yard moves because they have to restock the food service at Southampton and change crews between every Regional, Acela, and Lake Shore Limited run. And empty the toilets every couple of Boston-D.C. runs. They're dead in the water for however long they have to wait for a slot into Southampton. Immediate hard ceiling on Regional and Acela frequencies.

-- Yard moves hurt commuter rail when a 7-car Providence train comes in but the next outbound NEC departure is a 5-car Needham train. You can't exactly send that 7-car monster immediately back out to Needham, waste equipment where it's not needed, and induce a car shortage for the next Providence train. It's gotta wait on the platform for the next Providence departure in 20-25 minutes and induce a whole different cross movement to a whole different platform to board the Needham train. This is also why trainsets are sometimes too long or too short for the ridership they carry. Those Needhams and Franklins have to split the difference at 5 cars instead of being assigned 4 and 6. Also...easy to see where the platform layovers pinch your DMU slots.

-- Current SS has different-length platforms because of how the track fan-out is squeezed.
1) Right now Middleboro is capped at 6 cars max at SS, but all the stops on the line have 8-car platforms. Rush hour gets pretty crowded. The Buzzards Bay extension study says the only way to fit Wareham and BB ridership onto the existing 6 cars is to run 100% bi-levels. And that only buys a few years to figure out SS before they really really need 7 or 8.
2) Worcester and Providence run 7-car bi-levels today (8's occasionally on Providence). Limited selection where those can fan out, so they can't be too choosy about taking first available platform. Induces more cross movements.
3) Northeast Regionals run 10 cars at peak, with *most* (only a few outliers left) Amtrak-served NEC stops having extra-long platforms. Those have to be segregated to the very longest platforms in the middle.



What the new platforms do is spread everything out to decrease the cross movements. And stagger out the crossovers that transition the inbound + outbound mainline leads to any-direction platform tracks more gradually with more fluid sorting.


So. . .

-- See the Ft. Point Channel bridge here: http://goo.gl/maps/xr5Yg. That's 2 tracks of Old Colony main and 2 tracks of Fairmount main coming in via Southampton Yard. Those trains would just bank hard right to the far Dot Ave. side, and multiply into platform tracks which are Old Colony- and Fairmount-only. NEC trains wouldn't have to swerve onto the Fairmount platforms anymore when traffic is heaviest. The crossovers on the Ft. Point approach get elongated so trains moving at the same time don't have to pause, they can just coast a safe distance ahead/behind by taking the leading or trailing crossovers. The only cross movements where the platform tracks divide/converge are Fairmount vs. Fairmount and Old Colony vs. Old Colony. Just like when the Red Line at Alewife crosses itself when trains reverse on either track...there will never be a headway so short on one single line to ever cause a conflict.

-- Worcester trains do the identical thing on the far Atlantic Ave. side. They hug Tracks 1 & 2 off the curve from Back Bay exclusively and divide into platform tracks without the overstuffed NEC trains having to swerve onto those platforms. Easy single-file in and out. And that's how you get the explosion of Worcester Line DMU traffic into the terminal without fouling the explosion of Worcester/Framingham traffic into the terminal.

-- NEC trains fan out to the middle and gain extra platforms, get away from Worcester, and take over what's now the Fairmount and (Greenbush?) platforms. There'll still be a little NEC-on-NEC crossing over, but they'll stay away from the other 3 mainlines. And the NEC will get the most track work at staggering out the crossovers so the NEC-vs.-NEC motion stays fluid enough to keep headways as tight as the Back Bay approach allows. Stoughton/South Coast gets its slots this way. Franklin's crunch gets eased a bit (double-tracking Readville Jct. eases it some more). Needham punts its crisis re: getting squeezed out of the mix by another decade (though its service levels really can't increase much with BBY-Forest Hills the limiter).

-- The yard moves can now happen unimpeded. When the revenue trains don't have to cross each other, the crossing moves can get properly rationed to non-revenue trains. Amtrak gets saved by being able to immediately get off the platform and restock. They can rotate discharging and boarding Regionals in an unbroken chain. Commuter rail doesn't have to lay over for 20 minutes, and they can be a LOT more precise about what size trainsets they put together for which line. DMU's get their openings to turn with the push-pulls getting off the platform so much faster.

-- The short platforms get lengthened. Being able to spread the crossovers back for fewer NEC cross movements buys more space to lengthen the Worcester platforms. You WILL be running frequent 8-car monster sets to Worcester in a few years. You may need 8-10 cars someday for Inland Regionals. The Old Colony gets its full contingent to uncap Middleboro/Cape. Anything that the NEC can possibly cross over to can be uniform length. You will, on days when track problems are screwing up the terminal, be able to stuff multiple DMU sets on one platform back-to-back sort of like they do on the B Line @ Blandford St. for Sox postgames and avoid some unnecessary yard moves by boarding the front set, then activating the next set for the next outbound, and so on.
 
WOOOO SSX!
SSX2012VIDEOGAME.jpg
 
Oh dear.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...-objections/KjUfIbtj4UFHGuGQrEZdlJ/story.html

Oddly relevant to the conversation we were having in the other thread about MassDOT and the MBTA being awful at place-making, though it's probably fitting that the man responsible for "West Station" take another useful name with him, even if he didn't want to.

The good news is that this seems to have no impact outside of the plaque by the door. It's not like they're going to change the name of the Red Line station (fingers crossed).

Also... Beverly A. Scott, Ph.D? Are you serious? Does she think this is a grant proposal or something?
 
They're definitely not changing the name of the station in any way other than that plaque, and no one will ever call it the Dukakis Transportation Center.
 
Also... Beverly A. Scott, Ph.D? Are you serious? Does she think this is a grant proposal or something?

Dr. Beverly Scott would be more appropriate IMO, but some people don't like "Dr."

I'll assume you meant she should not have used the degree suffix nor the title, but be honest - if you had one you would like to see it cast in bronze too.
 
Embarrassing plaque buildup.

B1n_ZQFCYAAayV7.jpg


If somebody would show the guts to raise the gas tax another 3 cents and build a Central Station on the North-South rail link, only that would be worthy to be Dukakis Station.
 
Dr. Beverly Scott would be more appropriate IMO, but some people don't like "Dr."

I'll assume you meant she should not have used the degree suffix nor the title, but be honest - if you had one you would like to see it cast in bronze too.

This argument will get silly really fast, but no, I wouldn't want it cast in bronze if it had nothing to do with my job. The fact that she's a Ph.D. does not affect her competence or even her qualifications as MBTA Director (especially considering the number of people who have held that job and performed it admirably without that degree). I hope that if I had chosen to pursue a doctorate, I'd recognize that there were times when it added value and credibility to mention it, and times when it would do nothing but expose my enormous ego.

When my dad was Chair of our Boy Scout troop, he didn't sign his letters to families with "John Smith, Ph.D".
 

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