Federal Funds for South Station Expansion

[davem]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

If north union station hadn't been built before south station, it's entirely possible they would have routed everything similarly to that, and not had a north station at all.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Patrick cherry-picks what he wants to cherry-pick. That's nothing new. He chewed up half his speaking time spinning yarns about how Fall River's going to have a 45-minute ride to Boston (oddly, only 5 minutes longer than a current Stoughton trip) on magic teleporting trains.


Don't forget Amtrak is wielding the big stick here with SS expansion. The NEC Infrastructure Master Plan bullseyes terminal capacity as the #1 east-of-New Haven issue for them. If the state and BRA are going to go limp lifting any finger, Amtrak is going to voice its displeasure loudly. Just like they have about yard storage, and just like they may have already done on the Track 61 plan that has disappeared from discussion almost as fast as it was announced. Amtrak ain't gonna pay the whole way, but a fed entity has pull with other fed entities. They and USDOT can always take it to USPS directly. The city and state might not like the result if that means the facility withdraws entirely from the area instead of getting spiffy new Southie digs, but if push comes to shove the feds can keep it entirely in-house booting the Postal facility.

Plus, Amtrak is going to heavily pressure the track expansion plans to move forward (final track/platform design is pretty much locked down) even if it has to be built on bare concrete exposed to the elements until they get their shit together on the glass-palace headhouse. Those platforms are for the Old Colony, Fairmount, and the NEC branches; Amtrak spreads out on the existing platforms, so they don't give a shit if the T-only platforms get rained on. Lack of cooperation and state funding can significantly delay it, but the state doesn't have infinite leverage here to walk away from a commitment they entered into as partner to the NEC improvements spelled out in that report. Amtrak's going to get its slots even if it has to take slots away from the T by force.

F-Line where do you get ideas like "Amtrak ain't gonna pay the whole way, but a fed entity has pull with other fed entities. They and USDOT can always take it to USPS directly. The city and state might not like the result if that means the facility withdraws entirely from the area instead of getting spiffy new Southie digs, but if push comes to shove the feds can keep it entirely in-house booting the Postal facility." -- not very likely -- the Congress is the only entity that can do something of that nature and they are not inclined to increase the cost of running the USPS

As for the other comments -- also not very accurate as South Station is owned by Massachusetts --and thus the T and not Amtrak is the boss

All in all the USPS facility will move not because of tracks but because of what can be built over the tracks

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

F-Line where do you get ideas like "Amtrak ain't gonna pay the whole way, but a fed entity has pull with other fed entities. They and USDOT can always take it to USPS directly. The city and state might not like the result if that means the facility withdraws entirely from the area instead of getting spiffy new Southie digs, but if push comes to shove the feds can keep it entirely in-house booting the Postal facility." -- not very likely -- the Congress is the only entity that can do something of that nature and they are not inclined to increase the cost of running the USPS

That's exactly what I said. Do you ever read the damn posts you're responding to, whigh?

As for the other comments -- also not very accurate as South Station is owned by Massachusetts --and thus the T and not Amtrak is the boss

Amtrak controls all dispatching ops out of South Station. They have a hell of a lot of leverage because of that. If the state dragging its feet on the expansion crimps Amtrak's capacity, Amtrak will give its trains priority and commuter rail will be the one having to dance around with ever tightening noose around its capacity. The headhouse is entirely the state's and city's deal, but Amtrak can exert considerable pressure to get the track expansion front-loaded.

Again, I said this. Try reading the posts for once before spitting out a high-and-mighty reply.

 

[winstonoboogie]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Amtrak dispatches the MBTA-owned track from Boston to the Mass/R.I. line because the MBTA lets them. Amtrak offered to maintain the track at no cost to the MBTA in exchange for being allowed to dispatch it. A good deal for the MBTA, but if there ever was a serious dispute between the two, the MBTA, as owner, could take over the dispatching and maintenance. This "who owns what" issue has come up before:
http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=183054&postcount=2618

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Amtrak dispatches the MBTA-owned track from Boston to the Mass/R.I. line because the MBTA lets them. Amtrak offered to maintain the track at no cost to the MBTA in exchange for being allowed to dispatch it. A good deal for the MBTA, but if there ever was a serious dispute between the two, the MBTA, as owner, could take over the dispatching and maintenance. This "who owns what" issue has come up before:
http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=183054&postcount=2618

Merry Christmas to you too, sweetie.

 

[winstonoboogie]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Merry Christmas to you too, sweetie.

Why not try these new phrases for the New Year:
"I didn't know that.....I stand corrected.....Thanks for the Info!"

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Why not try these new phrases for the New Year:
"I didn't know that.....I stand corrected.....Thanks for the Info!"

And you can stop setting off-topic traps to bait single posters you've got a jones to discredit, m'kay. You're injecting irrelevant nitpicks into the thread because of a reply to whighlander about not reading the posts he's spinning a yarn to...something he frequently does forum-wide, including the Dev Forum threads you don't read. Unlike you, however, Mr. Westie is fully capable of taking the hint and showing common courtesy when human nature gets the best of him instead of doubling-down on the irrelevant thread-derail because "Urngh...this guy, and internet argument!".


Take it to PM's if you want a pissing match with me that bad, or report me to the mods if that gives you the self-satisfaction you crave. But stop wasting this forum's fucking time with this nagging ninny act.



Happy New Year, sweetie.

 

[DowntownDave]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

I hope this dispute doesn't escalate into murder-suicide as it did in this famous play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhc1hWXH5IM

 

[winstonoboogie]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

instead of doubling-down on the irrelevant thread-derail :

The entire topic is South Station expansion. Getting it straight about who owns the tracks, who can decide the dispatching, and what organization would have the most pull in an intercity rail vs. commuter rail dispute seems very relevant to the topic. Whighlander stated you were wrong on some of your facts that relate to the topic. I pointed out the earlier thread where Amtrak's own documents make it clear the state/MBTA own the railroad, and Amtrak's dispatching duties only first began several years after the ownership had already passed to the MBTA. You are the one saying "Amtrak will give its trains priority and commuter rail will be the one having to dance around with ever tightening noose around its capacity" and the facts of ownership do not back up that position.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

The entire topic is South Station expansion. Getting it straight about who owns the tracks, who can decide the dispatching, and what organization would have the most pull in an intercity rail vs. commuter rail dispute seems very relevant to the topic. Whighlander stated you were wrong on some of your facts that relate to the topic. I pointed out the earlier thread where Amtrak's own documents make it clear the state/MBTA own the railroad, and Amtrak's dispatching duties only first began several years after the ownership had already passed to the MBTA. You are the one saying "Amtrak will give its trains priority and commuter rail will be the one having to dance around with ever tightening noose around its capacity" and the facts of ownership do not back up that position.

No, this has nothing to do with the discussion. You are semantic threadshitting again to get your kicks in a one-on-one pissing match. Try sparing the board of your ever so unique form of holiday cheer by manning up for a change:

(I wonder what that button does?)




Happy Kwanzaa, sweetie.

 

[winstonoboogie]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

No, this has nothing to do with the discussion. .

It has everything to do about the discussion and getting key facts straight, you seem incapable of understanding that. Go back and count up how many of my posts are about presenting facts and (if possible) links to the source data. Posts like this, having to respond to your Captain Queeg-like behavior, are the exception not the rule.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

I saw this shitstorm coming from a mile away yesterday.

Seriously, F-Line, you're actually the problem here and have been on multiple occasions. Why can't you just have a respectful discussion with Winston? No one knows everything about a subject. It's okay to be wrong sometimes and it's okay for someone to point out mistakes. The discourse is what makes a discussion great and substantial. The most in-depth discussions on this board result from your and Winston's posts in the transit forum. Just have some civil discourse... Please.

 

[FitchburgLine]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Seriously, can we please have a simple discussion on SSX, containing both F-Line and Winston (AFAICT, the two most knowledgeable people on the board), without F-Line accusing Winston of targeting him? It makes sense he responds to you, you're the most knowledgeable person on the board!

 

[Deetroyt]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Would any pre-work for N-S Link be done with a South Station Expansion? For example, I'm assuming they wouldn't expand SS in a way that would prevent NS Link, but would work have to be done on the descent down towards the tunnel under the Central Artery? I believe the plans for the NS Link would include a tunnel under Dot Ave for trains to enter the Link tunnel, and I'm just curious if that will need to be done as part of the SS expansion, or if it could just be done later.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

SS surface expansion would have no impact on the N-S Link.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

That's exactly what I said. Do you ever read the damn posts you're responding to, whigh?



Amtrak controls all dispatching ops out of South Station. They have a hell of a lot of leverage because of that. If the state dragging its feet on the expansion crimps Amtrak's capacity, Amtrak will give its trains priority and commuter rail will be the one having to dance around with ever tightening noose around its capacity. The headhouse is entirely the state's and city's deal, but Amtrak can exert considerable pressure to get the track expansion front-loaded.

Again, I said this. Try reading the posts for once before spitting out a high-and-mighty reply.

F-Line -- I read the posts -- or at least skim them

when you are talking railroad tech -- I read them with great interest and focus
When you start on what amounts to thinly veiled "Crazy Transit Pitch' stuff -then I skip along to the end

I know what your focus and position is from the policy standpoint and I just think that you have too much love and faith in government

But in the spirit of "peace on Earth Good Will to All' -- I wish you the most joyous and pacific Christmastide or whatever Solsticial event that you favor

 

[The EGE]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Shouldn't, anyway. SSX is adding tracks towards Dot Ave and Fort Point Channel; there won't be much in the way of anything done to the existing tracks save for updating the interlockings. NSRL would be under the existing tracks, and would be thirty-odd feet underground anyway.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Shouldn't, anyway. SSX is adding tracks towards Dot Ave and Fort Point Channel; there won't be much in the way of anything done to the existing tracks save for updating the interlockings. NSRL would be under the existing tracks, and would be thirty-odd feet underground anyway.

EGE -- NO that's the problem -- there is already the better part of 100 feet under that's committed for Highway, Red Line, Silver LIne

Because of that existing layer cake -- the proposed [not likely to happen] Rail Link would have to either do a whole lot of 3D threading or go way down

3D Treading is more possible than in the past -- but there are constraints about how sharp the bends and changes in grade can be to have a chance

Deep requires deep under SS platforms that have to connect with banks of elevators to the existing waiting room and services and more importantly mean extremely long approaches

Not going to happen

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

^ Mister cynical over here...

 

[bigeman312]

Re: Fend Funds for South Station Expansion

Not going to happen

In the next 15 years under current bureaucratic system. This is far less crazy of a project than the Big Dig, and while our system currently favors extravagant automobile construction over transit construction, I could see a direct, underground North-South Connector in the 20-50 year out range, as long as its done incrementally.