Four Seasons Tower @ CSC | 1 Dalton Street | Back Bay

Homeowner insurance has no problem defining a vacant home. I believe it is pretty typical to have to pay an increased premium if your home is unoccupied for more than 3 consecutive months. There is plenty of legal precedent for defining a vacant property.

I have no problem taxing people for voluntarily leaving a home vacant in a city with a housing crisis. Our problem is not that we can't get anyone to buy homes here. The problem is that there are 12 buyers for every home listed. We could absolutely support a tax that puts a little pressure AGAINST buyers because we have literally too many of them. If the tide ever turns and the tax is keeping homes stuck on the market, then your concerns would be valid and that would be the time to remove it.

This whole vacant unit thing is a total red herring. It's just an easily-digestible soundbite that's easy for people to latch on to. While I'm not opposed to an additional tax on vacant units, it's not going to come close to solving the problem of affordable housing.

It's sort of like how people blame doctors' salaries for high healthcare costs. While it's certainly a contributing factor, you could force all doctors to work for free and we'd still have ridiculously overpriced healthcare. Vacant housing is the same thing - if you filled every vacant unit we'd still have a housing crisis.
 
I'm sorry but while this is well intentioned it has no practical application in the real world. Homes may be vacant for a variety of reasons - a relocation for example. Do you plan on screwing those people as well. Furthermore, this proposal has the effect of having super wealthy people just not buy here, which will cost the city much, much more in lost property taxes than anything a vacancy tax brings in. I think the expression is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

No one would be getting screwed. People with more money than they know what to do with would be taxed by a city that they chose to buy property in. That money would be used to improve the city, which in turn helps maintain property values.

You really think all the super wealthy people in the world would refuse to buy here because of a tiny tax increase??? There are bidding wars going on in Boston. Way more people want to live here than there are housing units. Rich people aren't going to run away. They just want useful idiots to buy into that fear so that they can pay less in taxes. No rich person would decide to buy a house in low tax Kansas instead of a $30 million dollar penthouse in Boston because rich people do not want to live in Kansas.
 
I'm sorry but while this is well intentioned it has no practical application in the real world. Homes may be vacant for a variety of reasons - a relocation for example. Do you plan on screwing those people as well. Furthermore, this proposal has the effect of having super wealthy people just not buy here, which will cost the city much, much more in lost property taxes than anything a vacancy tax brings in. I think the expression is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I think you are grossly overestimating the downside and are giving no weight at all to the upside. More than anything, I think you are addicted to the status quo.

We charge property taxes regardless of whether the property is occupied, correct? Are the people leaving their property vacant being screwed by the property tax status quo? They aren't using any city services when the property is vacant, are they? Extending your reasoning, why shouldn't we charge them LESS tax while the property is vacant? I don't think anyone wants that, but if you are so certain taxing more is wrong then why not tax less? What evidence do you have that taxing the exact same amount for occupied and unoccupied property is optimal?

As a different way of looking at - why not set the baseline tax for vacant property, give an exemption for occupied property, and a further exemption for owner-occupied property. It is really just adding a 3rd tier to our 2-tier system because we already have the owner-occupied exemption. Are landlords getting "screwed" by the current owner-occupied exemption? I don't think anyone sees it that way. Owner-occupiers are getting a break precisely to ENCOURAGE owner-occupancy.

Good tax policy is designed to encourage desirable behavior and discourage undesirable behavior. We are talking about nudges in one direction or another, not the iron fist of the government crushing everything in sight. Discouraging some absentee investor from choosing Boston to park his money means that someone who is going to actually live in the unit and contribute to our community is going to buy the property instead (for a few dollars less, obviously). Remember, we have an ABSURD excess of buyers and rapid appreciation clearly fueled by Boston's fundamentals, not really fueled by speculation. That kind of tax policy nudge isn't going to override all the fundamental reasons people buy property in Boston and it certainly isn't going to collapse our property tax base. On the contrary, it could just lend some badly needed stability by tempering any influence that speculators do have.
 
One shouldn't ignore the fact that many of these part time residents make rather generous charitable contributions, such as Grayken's $25m to BMC to combat the opioid issue.
 
No one would be getting screwed. People with more money than they know what to do with would be taxed by a city that they chose to buy property in. That money would be used to improve the city, which in turn helps maintain property values.

You really think all the super wealthy people in the world would refuse to buy here because of a tiny tax increase??? There are bidding wars going on in Boston. Way more people want to live here than there are housing units. Rich people aren't going to run away. They just want useful idiots to buy into that fear so that they can pay less in taxes. No rich person would decide to buy a house in low tax Kansas instead of a $30 million dollar penthouse in Boston because rich people do not want to live in Kansas.

Quick question: Does anyone know how many $30 million units there are in Boston?
 
We charge property taxes regardless of whether the property is occupied, correct? Are the people leaving their property vacant being screwed by the property tax status quo? They aren't using any city services when the property is vacant, are they? Extending your reasoning, why shouldn't we charge them LESS tax while the property is vacant? I don't think anyone wants that, but if you are so certain taxing more is wrong then why not tax less? What evidence do you have that taxing the exact same amount for occupied and unoccupied property is optimal?

As a different way of looking at - why not set the baseline tax for vacant property, give an exemption for occupied property, and a further exemption for owner-occupied property. It is really just adding a 3rd tier to our 2-tier system because we already have the owner-occupied exemption. Are landlords getting "screwed" by the current owner-occupied exemption? I don't think anyone sees it that way. Owner-occupiers are getting a break precisely to ENCOURAGE owner-occupancy.

Good tax policy is designed to encourage desirable behavior and discourage undesirable behavior. We are talking about nudges in one direction or another, not the iron fist of the government crushing everything in sight. Discouraging some absentee investor from choosing Boston to park his money means that someone who is going to actually live in the unit and contribute to our community is going to buy the property instead (for a few dollars less, obviously). Remember, we have an ABSURD excess of buyers and rapid appreciation clearly fueled by Boston's fundamentals, not really fueled by speculation. That kind of tax policy nudge isn't going to override all the fundamental reasons people buy property in Boston and it certainly isn't going to collapse our property tax base. On the contrary, it could just lend some badly needed stability by tempering any influence that speculators do have.

Again, this is a solution in search of a problem. What real problem are we actually trying to solve here? Is it people own properties that they aren't living in full time? Who cares? What exactly do you think will change if people live 6 months a year in One Dalton instead of 3? This doesn't affect me at all as I'm not living in any of these places but the whole premise is based on trying to create an issue where there is none. Furthermore, what's to stop one of these Richie Rich's from claiming that their cousin Biff has been staying in the condo and therefore avoiding the tax.

If the problem is not enough money for affordable housing, how is driving away wealthy people who pay huge property tax bills going to improve funding for affordable housing, as well as driving away the money developers contribute to affordable housing if the market dries up due to excessive taxation? Its easy to wave this away with the "oh, people will buy here anyway" but my answer is not necessarily. Luxury building property taxes are a huge cash infusion into the city's budget. We haven't been knocking down projects and homeless shelters to build them either. No point in changing that arrangement because some bitter NIMBY has real estate envy.
 
No one would be getting screwed. People with more money than they know what to do with would be taxed by a city that they chose to buy property in. That money would be used to improve the city, which in turn helps maintain property values.

You really think all the super wealthy people in the world would refuse to buy here because of a tiny tax increase??? There are bidding wars going on in Boston. Way more people want to live here than there are housing units. Rich people aren't going to run away. They just want useful idiots to buy into that fear so that they can pay less in taxes. No rich person would decide to buy a house in low tax Kansas instead of a $30 million dollar penthouse in Boston because rich people do not want to live in Kansas.

This is simplistic on multiple levels. The choice isn't between buying in Boston or Kansas, as ridiculous a strawman argument as I've ever seen out here. Its between buying or not buying at all. I don't care if Michael Dell for example wants to buy a penthouse but only use it a few times a year when he's visiting the EMC campus. For 40M bucks plus hundreds of thousands in property taxes that's his choice to make. But as some point even though the guy is loaded its going to not be worth it for him to do so once the costs gets beyond the value. Others will feel the same way. Once NIMBY fantasyland economics reach that point, it starts taking a real bite out of the city's budget.

Luxury buildings aren't harming anybody, and benefiting the city greatly in terms of tax revenue. What exactly is the problem here?
 
great discussion debunking the Globe garbage. i really appreciate all the fine points made.

i need to file them in my notes to bring to future public meetings.

my crappy LG takes a damn lousy photo.

This morning (flying to LA)....





 
Luxury buildings aren't harming anybody, and benefiting the city greatly in terms of tax revenue. What exactly is the problem here?

THIS.
If you want to slap a progressive tax on uber wealthy than call it that. Don't invent some fake negative externality associated with vacant luxury units. Those units are already subsidizing people at the other end of the income spectrum via:
  • Affordable housing linkage fees
  • No kids in public school system
  • Less likely to require emergency responders
  • No visits to the emergency room
  • Unlikely to be on any form of public assistance
  • etc.
  • etc.
I'm in favor of a progressive tax system. But let's be honest about why and how we're taxing.
 
THIS.
If you want to slap a progressive tax on uber wealthy than call it that. Don't invent some fake negative externality associated with vacant luxury units. Those units are already subsidizing people at the other end of the income spectrum via:
  • Affordable housing linkage fees
  • No kids in public school system
  • Less likely to require emergency responders
  • No visits to the emergency room
  • Unlikely to be on any form of public assistance
  • etc.
  • etc.
I'm in favor of a progressive tax system. But let's be honest about why and how we're taxing.

Completely agree on all points. The NIMBYs don't argue in good faith for a few reasons - the more ignorant of them probably believe their own talking points, while the more savvy are well aware they're full of horse defecate.
 
LiquidPassionateDikkops-size_restricted.gif


https://gfycat.com/LiquidPassionateDikkops
 
Luxury buildings aren't harming anybody, and benefiting the city greatly in terms of tax revenue. What exactly is the problem here?

Jealously

I'd also say that the NIMBY narrative of empty is grossly exaggerated.
 
great discussion debunking the Globe garbage. i really appreciate all the fine points made.

i need to file them in my notes to bring to future public meetings.

my crappy LG takes a damn lousy photo.

This morning (flying to LA)....






Great pics, thanks.

However, after last week, I'm going for the aisle seats.....
 
Jealously

I'd also say that the NIMBY narrative of empty is grossly exaggerated.

NIMBY's hate this building because its a threat to their lame existence. Its tall (tallest in the city in 40+ years), attractive, and extortion proof given the site and ownership. When it goes up, the worry for them is people might start to consider why we don't have more tall buildings, or how refreshing it is to have a building go up that's not subject to the usual petty extortion battles that go on every time someone proposes a building taller than a tree. Winthrop Square was a more public humiliation, but this one could have a more lasting impact.
 
Outside of this article (which isn't actually opposed to this building per se) has there really been a strong NIMBY resistance to this building? I am talking about an actual organized resistance, not the paste-eating Globe commenters.
 
Outside of this article (which isn't actually opposed to this building per se) has there really been a strong NIMBY resistance to this building? I am talking about an actual organized resistance, not the paste-eating Globe commenters.

No, because its NIMBY proof. They couldn't run to court to delay the project because the owner (Christian Scientists) owns the land free and clear of any carrying costs and has all the time in the world to develop it. There were no shadow or wind impacts except on the campus itself so no standing to sue. Also couldn't find any grandstanding politicians willing to extort a church for so-called "community benefits".

Make no mistake, they hate this building. But seeing what they were up against they slinked away and went after an easier mark (Winthrop Square, which they've also lost).
 

Back
Top