General Boston Discussion

With the big rate cut and the economy heating up are we closing in on a new construction cycle?
 
Idk if anybody else cares, and I didnt want to make a new thread just to ponder over this thought I had after reading an article, but this has had me kind of flabbergasted for the last few days after really going and looking at the area. Does anyone else find it super weird how Boston’s main competitor in the biotech/medical industry is not San Francisco, Seattle, or even Charlotte…. but research triangle park in east bumfuck north carolina? Usually industries flock to the big city center/metros of a state and that means you end up with fairly similar pairs like San Francisco and Seattle competing on tech, NYC and Chicago competing in finance, Seattle and Los Angeles on Aerospace… but when it comes to medical research the fastest growing area outside of Boston is… research triangle park.

This is what it looks like on google earth…
IMG_0831.jpeg


With such wonderful urbanism as…
IMG_0832.jpeg


Theres lots of green field growth happening all over the place, it just looks like this…
IMG_0833.jpeg


It is anchored on its 3 sides by durham, chapel hill, and raleigh, but the growth is happening in the suburban hellhole between the 3. It would seem to make a lot more sense if it was anchored on raleigh or durham. Is this just a case of cheap greenfield land in “close enough” proximity to colleges that its somehow working? This cant last very long can it? The fact that they didnt create a masterplan for the area and instead just let all of the worst aspects of American suburban sprawl just run wild seems like a massively missed opportunity. I guess though maybe for the other half of Americans who love the suburbs this is paradise? How can this compete with Boston lol…

“How the Research Triangle has helped make North Carolina one of America's fastest-growing economies”​

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news...icas-fastest-growing-economies/3387036/?amp=1

“A threat to Boston’s dominance? 9 projects transforming the Triangle’s biotech scene”

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article284904202.html

Apparently theyre creating a mini downtown called “Hub RTP”, it looks like this…
IMG_0836.jpeg

IMG_0837.jpeg

Rtp

This looks like pure insanity to me.
 
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How can this compete with Boston lol…

"The Triangle" as the whole area is commonly known has been one of the fastest 2-3 growing metro areas for about 15-20 years. It's still relatively affordable, and draws its talent base from UNC (Chapel Hill), Duke (Durham), and NC State (Raleigh).

You are correct though regarding the dreadful layout and lack of meaningful density. They just don't do cities as well once you get south of Richmond, except I guess Savannah and Charleston on the East Coast, which I have never been to either. Charlotte, Winston Salem, and Greensboro all had very lame downtowns that turned into sprawl quickly. Raleigh should build more downtown but for some reason too much of its demand is being filled by these other office-park areas. It has potential but was basically just a main street with a few offshoots, and gets sketchy quickly. The parks were full of drug users and it didn't feel super safe off the main drag. I know they have built some since I was last there in 2013, but it doesn't appear to be meaningful enough to change that assessment yet.
 
Idk if anybody else cares, and I didnt want to make a new thread just to ponder over this thought I had after reading an article, but this has had me kind of flabbergasted for the last few days after really going and looking at the area. Does anyone else find it super weird how Boston’s main competitor in the biotech/medical industry is not San Francisco, Seattle, or even Charlotte…. but research triangle park in east bumfuck north carolina? Usually industries flock to the big city center/metros of a state and that means you end up with fairly similar pairs like San Francisco and Seattle competing on tech, NYC and Chicago competing in finance, Seattle and Los Angeles on Aerospace… but when it comes to medical research the fastest growing area outside of Boston is… research triangle park.

This is what it looks like on google earth…
View attachment 55796

With such wonderful urbanism as…
View attachment 55797

Theres lots of green field growth happening all over the place, it just looks like this…
View attachment 55798

It is anchored on its 3 sides by durham, chapel hill, and raleigh, but the growth is happening in the suburban hellhole between the 3. It would seem to make a lot more sense if it was anchored on raleigh or durham. Is this just a case of cheap greenfield land in “close enough” proximity to colleges that its somehow working? This cant last very long can it? The fact that they didnt create a masterplan for the area and instead just let all of the worst aspects of American suburban sprawl just run wild seems like a massively missed opportunity. I guess though maybe for the other half of Americans who love the suburbs this is paradise? How can this compete with Boston lol…

“How the Research Triangle has helped make North Carolina one of America's fastest-growing economies”​

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news...icas-fastest-growing-economies/3387036/?amp=1

“A threat to Boston’s dominance? 9 projects transforming the Triangle’s biotech scene”

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article284904202.html

Apparently theyre creating a mini downtown called “Hub RTP”, it looks like this…
View attachment 55799
View attachment 55800
Rtp

This looks like pure insanity to me.
2M population and three major research universities, and proximity to a lot of capital/finance, and NC isn't that expensive to live in. I know people that have moved down there for new offers/transfers in their companies following COVID.
 
Idk if anybody else cares, and I didnt want to make a new thread just to ponder over this thought I had after reading an article, but this has had me kind of flabbergasted for the last few days after really going and looking at the area. Does anyone else find it super weird how Boston’s main competitor in the biotech/medical industry is not San Francisco, Seattle, or even Charlotte…. but research triangle park in east bumfuck north carolina? Usually industries flock to the big city center/metros of a state and that means you end up with fairly similar pairs like San Francisco and Seattle competing on tech, NYC and Chicago competing in finance, Seattle and Los Angeles on Aerospace… but when it comes to medical research the fastest growing area outside of Boston is… research triangle park.

This is what it looks like on google earth…
View attachment 55796

With such wonderful urbanism as…
View attachment 55797

Theres lots of green field growth happening all over the place, it just looks like this…
View attachment 55798

It is anchored on its 3 sides by durham, chapel hill, and raleigh, but the growth is happening in the suburban hellhole between the 3. It would seem to make a lot more sense if it was anchored on raleigh or durham. Is this just a case of cheap greenfield land in “close enough” proximity to colleges that its somehow working? This cant last very long can it? The fact that they didnt create a masterplan for the area and instead just let all of the worst aspects of American suburban sprawl just run wild seems like a massively missed opportunity. I guess though maybe for the other half of Americans who love the suburbs this is paradise? How can this compete with Boston lol…

“How the Research Triangle has helped make North Carolina one of America's fastest-growing economies”​

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news...icas-fastest-growing-economies/3387036/?amp=1

“A threat to Boston’s dominance? 9 projects transforming the Triangle’s biotech scene”

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article284904202.html

Apparently theyre creating a mini downtown called “Hub RTP”, it looks like this…
View attachment 55799
View attachment 55800
Rtp

This looks like pure insanity to me.

Looks like 128 to me
 
"The Triangle" as the whole area is commonly known has been one of the fastest 2-3 growing metro areas for about 15-20 years. It's still relatively affordable, and draws its talent base from UNC (Chapel Hill), Duke (Durham), and NC State (Raleigh).

You are correct though regarding the dreadful layout and lack of meaningful density. They just don't do cities as well once you get south of Richmond, except I guess Savannah and Charleston on the East Coast, which I have never been to either. Charlotte, Winston Salem, and Greensboro all had very lame downtowns that turned into sprawl quickly. Raleigh should build more downtown but for some reason too much of its demand is being filled by these other office-park areas. It has potential but was basically just a main street with a few offshoots, and gets sketchy quickly. The parks were full of drug users and it didn't feel super safe off the main drag. I know they have built some since I was last there in 2013, but it doesn't appear to be meaningful enough to change that assessment yet.

Yea this is definitely true and I wonder when the cheap land finally runs out in these places if the growth will fall off a cliff. I feel like the vast majority of the appeal must just be the cheap greenfield land to build out without any pesky existing structures/owners/neighbors…etc to deal with. I definitely get the appeal of cheap land, high housing costs up here is the #1 thing that most of my money goes to and a lower COL would drastically improve my life in every way. That being said the way they are building out their roads is atrocious. Roads are really the #1 most important part of city planning because once they are laid down they are basically impossible to change. Old houses, buildings, offices can be bulldozed and redeveloped really easily, but once the roads are down theyre down. Grid style layouts are very flexible and can have very low density, but then can very easily densify to essentially an unlimited amount as growth occurs. The sprawling office park type of road layouts being built here are very hard to densify beyond a certain point. Tysons VA is a great example of how hard it is to densify these types of road layouts.

As you mentioned there are examples of great southern cities like charleston and savannah and even richmond has been building a lot of nice new neighborhoods lately. It feels like they would have been much better served long term trying to improve upon the good things they already have and make them better vs just allowing office park sprawl to run wild wherever its cheapest.

Looks like 128 to me
This is definitely true but I feel like 128 works the same as most other big cities in america where it acts as a relief valve from the more expensive rents as you get closer and closer to downtown boston/cambridge. If companies need more room the cheaper rents being further from downtown allows that flexibility. The difference with research triangle park I feel is that it isnt a relief valve for a larger city but is the main area where companies and people are relocating. I guess in a way it could be kind of compared to silicon valley which is pretty suburban just with it having muuuuuuuch smaller surrounding cities than SV and muuuch less dense development.
 
Ooh, thanks for finding a source for weighted population densities. This is very useful.

Even going by weighted population density, Boston within the MBTA service district still has a higher percentage of communties with population densities below 1,900 people per square kilometer, outpacing Los Angeles even still, in regards to ultra-low density exurbs and suburbs.

View attachment 55067


Commuter rail also already does a decent job picking up the dense downtown areas of the low density suburbs, but once you get more than 10 minutes away from the CR stop, population densities dropping below ~2,500 people per square kilometer, outside of those small, compact downtown cores, the well dries up for running meaningful 10-15 frequent bus service. Beefing up commuter rail frequencies to every 15 - 30 (or Highland D Branch/Mattapan Trolley style service), will cover most of these dense compact town centers. Here's a map of all the historical railroad ROWs overlaid on Teban's population density map, showing that the railroads already serve (or used to serve), these compact town centers.

If your outlying suburban exurb isn't near a MBTA CR stop, chances are that suburban exurb is SOL anyways. The population density of areas more than a 10 minute walk of a historical RR ROW are most likely, below 2,500 people per square kilometer, much lower than suburban Toronto's densities that sustain those frequent suburban buses that run every 10 - 15 in Toronto. (Areas in red are the streetcar suburbs). You would be hard pressed to find any large conglomerate of census blocks outside of the streetcar suburbs, with more than 2,500 people per square kilometer, and be more than 10 minute's walk away from a historical RR ROW. (focus on areas just outside the yellow areas, NOT outside the red areas)
View attachment 55071



Man, I'm kinda both depressed and very surprised at how far the English speaking world lags in providing good transit (there's literally NO pair of anglophone cities that are connected by high speed rail today... Paris and Brussels don't count --- also, somehow Auckland/Melbourne/Sydney rank highly in "quality of life" - but 15 minute frequent transit only serves like 30 - 60% of the city - so 40 - 70% of those cities are also transit poor).

I've always been under the impression that a metropolitian area needs millions of residents strong, to have a large network of single digit frequencies of transit routes. It seems like only Toronto, NYC, Vancouver, and London do this right with a large network of single digit frequencies, aside from Vancouver, all of them are over 5.5 million strong. 15 minutes isn't frequency. It's still "check a timetable before going".

To live in a city of only 150,000, can a city of 150,000 even have good single digit frequency transit? Is public transit in Lowell, Lawrence, Worcester, Framingham, or Brockton, ever going to be a "legit form of transport", or are they forever relegated to being "social/welfare services", and only Boston streetcar suburbs can go car free? A city of 150,000 is typically always going to be so small that 15 minute frequencies aren't going to compete, if the distance to the edge of the city is "so short". Yet the population is also going to be tiny to justify demand for sub-10 minute frequency.

Still kinda wild and boggles my mind that almost all of the anglosphere essentially gutted small towns to become car sewers, save for a college town or two, meaning only downtown and the streetcar suburbs of big cities of 4.55 million+ (or maybe some obscure college town) can go car free.

When I analyzed cities with metros/trams/etc in the US/Canada/etc./etc.. Cities with metros generally are mostly over 3,500,000 strong. Cities with light rail have 850,000 population or more. Cities with at least commuter rail or BRT have generally over 625,000 plus.
Keep in mind also Toronto and other areas of Canada aren't seeking to do as much hiring as USA. Canada uses a mix of the honor system and more automation for example the Go Train (the equivalent of Commuter Rail) which goes into the suburbs you swipe your card when getting on the train yourself. Then when getting off you tap off and press the button for your door to open. So they don't hire a whole slew of conductors to march up and down the train and then have to pay them a whole heap of benefits at retirement.

That and their stations in Canada are made not to need a conductor to put down a foot stool or raise and lower a floor in the stairwell on their train at each station.
 
As you mentioned there are examples of great southern cities like charleston and savannah and even richmond has been building a lot of nice new neighborhoods lately.

Just came here to say Richmond may be one of the most underrated cities in the US. Gorgeous historic neighborhoods, industrial areas that have been smartly revitalized through adaptive reuse, cool vibe that mixes a really vibrant arts/alt scene with hipsters and old southern charm, and a riverfront that connects city and nature better than any I've ever seen. Charleston, Savannah, and New Orleans get all the love in the south (well deserved), but don't sleep on Richmond!!
 
Just came here to say Richmond may be one of the most underrated cities in the US. Gorgeous historic neighborhoods, industrial areas that have been smartly revitalized through adaptive reuse, cool vibe that mixes a really vibrant arts/alt scene with hipsters and old southern charm, and a riverfront that connects city and nature better than any I've ever seen. Charleston, Savannah, and New Orleans get all the love in the south (well deserved), but don't sleep on Richmond!!
Next time my wife and I are in that part of the country, we'll have to check it out. New Orleans is my favorite southern city so far.
 
Just came here to say Richmond may be one of the most underrated cities in the US. Gorgeous historic neighborhoods, industrial areas that have been smartly revitalized through adaptive reuse, cool vibe that mixes a really vibrant arts/alt scene with hipsters and old southern charm, and a riverfront that connects city and nature better than any I've ever seen. Charleston, Savannah, and New Orleans get all the love in the south (well deserved), but don't sleep on Richmond!!

Richmond is on my list for sure. Just based on some Google street-viewing it seems like it went full on for rowhouses like some of its mid-Atlantic counterparts, and rowhouse urbanism is some of the best this country has to offer imo.
 
Just came here to say Richmond may be one of the most underrated cities in the US. Gorgeous historic neighborhoods, industrial areas that have been smartly revitalized through adaptive reuse, cool vibe that mixes a really vibrant arts/alt scene with hipsters and old southern charm, and a riverfront that connects city and nature better than any I've ever seen. Charleston, Savannah, and New Orleans get all the love in the south (well deserved), but don't sleep on Richmond!!
Yea I have to agree along the riverfront theyve been building some very nice low rise neighborhoods and across the river is really densifying fast.
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One thing I will say is Richmonds built environment would do very well to redevelop a lot of those low rise housing projects into some Boston style mixed income communities. Theres almost like a crescent shape of low density 1-2 story 80’s atlanta style housing projects that cut off downtown. Redeveloping those into mixed income communities would go a long way.

Its always seemed weird to me that as rich as virginia is and how well positioned, its really the only east coast state without its own major city. Arlington/Rosslyn Id consider a suburb of DC. It would be nice to see Richmond develop into a Baltimore or Boston sized city. Norfolk’s downtown is similarly surrounded by low rise projects, which I do know a few those are being redeveloped, but that city is surrounded by endless suburbs. Maybe if they changed their zoning they could densify, but I wouldnt count on it, I think Richmond has the best chance imo.
 
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