General Infrastructure

[BeyondRevenue]

But in terms of "accident waiting to happen" - I wouldn't really put this on any list of particularly dangerous intersections in the city. It's nothing like the infamous "island" 64 stop used to be by the Storrow ramps.

Okay, let's play FIND THE BUS STOP....

Give up yet?
Here it is, in blood red.

 

[BeyondRevenue]

I don't know where else to put this. Call it... a nice walk?

Somebody asked me why there's no 93 North connector from City Square in Charlestown or coming off the Tobin. I didn't know, so I looked at the map and thought if it were to be built, it could probably run either west under 93 to the NB Leverett Connector or its own ramp on the East side. Knowing it's never as easy as it seems, I looked at who owns what and why.
One owner looms large. Boston Sand and Gravel has asserted itself over a giant footprint of marginally regulated, watched, or taxed land stretching from almost Sullivan Square to the Charles River. Instead of posting property records from 3 municipalities (Boston, Cambridge and Somerville) and making you check through each site parcel by parcel, here it is in map form with GIS overlays from the 3 cities:

The takeaway: It appears BSG essentially dominates a private road system that you're paying for. The parcels they 'control' traverse City, MBTA and Commonwealth owned turf and even uses some small areas subsidized by other private entities.
I would guess that they would not want to give any of this up for anything... perhaps a shared truck route, additional public access, a North Point <> Charlestown Connector or two, some cool bike routes, public parking, expanded rail access, etc.
So, if anyone is out for a walk, start here and walk southwest under the highway. The train yard views are outstanding and the infrastructure itch will be scratched but good. G'head. While you still can.

 

[millerm277]

The takeaway: It appears BSG essentially dominates a private road system that you're paying for. The parcels they 'control' traverse City, MBTA and Commonwealth owned turf and even uses some small areas subsidized by other private entities.
I would guess that they would not want to give any of this up for anything... perhaps a shared truck route, additional public access, a North Point <> Charlestown Connector or two, some cool bike routes, public parking, expanded rail access, etc.
So, if anyone is out for a walk, start here and walk southwest under the highway. The train yard views are outstanding and the infrastructure itch will be scratched but good. G'head. While you still can.

I'm certainly not the expert here so feel free to correct me - Isn't the general story that it's part of the deals for building the Big Dig over much of what was BSG's land? "That you're paying for" feels like odd framing for something that I've understood to be a piece of modest compensation/leftovers of what the state took from their property in the first place.

Edit: Cool map and very interesting, though. Should have said that as well!

 

[reno]

I'm certainly not the expert here so feel free to correct me - Isn't the general story that it's part of the deals for building the Big Dig over much of what was BSG's land? "That you're paying for" feels like odd framing for something that I've understood to be a piece of modest compensation/leftovers of what the state took from their property in the first place.

You are correct BSG concrete plant is and has been a vital part of Boston's infrastructure, kick them out and where will they go? We need facilities like these close to the city otherwise pay up bigtime.

 

[Charlie_mta]

I don't know where else to put this. Call it... a nice walk?

Somebody asked me why there's no 93 North connector from City Square in Charlestown or coming off the Tobin.

When the Big Dig was in its final planning stages, the crossing over the Charles River was simplified from the original "Scheme Z", which would have provided an on-ramp to I-93 north from Rutherford Ave at City Square, and also directly from Tobin off-ramp to Rutherford Ave. That on-ramp to I-93 north was deleted in an effort to simplify and reduce the footprint of the interchange. The ghost ramps can be seen as two stubs next to each other on Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/C...2!3d42.3782065!4d-71.0602131?hl=en&authuser=0

 

[BeyondRevenue]

Yes. I have read of Scheme Z.
Yes. I know where the stubs are and the homeless who live next to them.
Yes. Concrete is obviously a good thing to have nearby.
Yes.
And The Big Dig was largely complete 20 years ago. They've been compensated.

I think there's a line that's been crossed. A mile (yes, that's right, a mile) of public roadway and adjacent property of varying widths, 2/3 being untaxed. For two decades. Compensation or straight subsidy? How much is too much? Are other concrete companies as competitive since they have to pay taxes on land they use?
I also wonder why people immediately run to defend practices that seem prima facie suspect? The property BSG squats on skirts many boundaries, and it would seem, skirts laws that apply to the rest of us. I have questions. In a city where property goes for $1000 a foot, this might be a question worth asking.
Consider how much could be developed if that stretch was the New New Rutherford Ave, not a private reservation for a private company.
Don't take my word for it. Go down there and look for yourself.

 

[Brattle Loop]

Yes. I have read of Scheme Z.
Yes. I know where the stubs are and the homeless who live next to them.
Yes. Concrete is obviously a good thing to have nearby.
Yes.
And The Big Dig was largely complete 20 years ago. They've been compensated.

I think there's a line that's been crossed. A mile (yes, that's right, a mile) of public roadway and adjacent property of varying widths, 2/3 being untaxed. For two decades. Compensation or straight subsidy? How much is too much? Are other concrete companies as competitive since they have to pay taxes on land they use?
I also wonder why people immediately run to defend practices that seem prima facie suspect? The property BSG squats on skirts many boundaries, and it would seem, skirts laws that apply to the rest of us. I have questions. In a city where property goes for $1000 a foot, this might be a question worth asking.
Consider how much could be developed if that stretch was the New New Rutherford Ave, not a private reservation for a private company.
Don't take my word for it. Go down there and look for yourself.

I assume I'm missing something in this sea of complexity and poorly-explained maps but...what on Earth are you actually complaining about? Because as far as I can tell it's a lot of opaque text surrounding what is, at its core, annoyance that Boston Sand & Gravel is...served by public roads? Using land owned by other landowners and/or the state that would otherwise be un/underused because it's a quasi-industrial wasteland next to and between two different railroads under a double-deck highway and the Tobin/Zakim spaghetti ramps?

It makes so little sense that I can only conclude that there's something you're arguing that I'm not getting, please point me in the right direction if you can. Because based on what I can get from your posts, there's the (I think unwarranted, but I understand it) criticism of a public roadway that basically serves only one customer... (Pretty important customer, and maybe not skyrocketing the cost of construction materials over a point of principle and some asphalt is considered acceptable, I know I'm fine with it.) as well as some annoyance that they're using other companies' parcels (take it up with said companies/landowners) and the state's land (if the state has nothing better to do with it, who gives a damn?)

 

[millerm277]

And The Big Dig was largely complete 20 years ago. They've been compensated.

I think there's a line that's been crossed. A mile (yes, that's right, a mile) of public roadway and adjacent property of varying widths, 2/3 being untaxed. For two decades. Compensation or straight subsidy? How much is too much?

The state decided to cut off other routes to get around their property, and the state now pays for the mile long driveway they have to use to get into it by road instead, is the gist of what I know of this. That seems reasonable in perpetuity? Especially since the state needs access to it for I-93 maintenance.

Are other concrete companies as competitive since they have to pay taxes on land they use?

Do other concrete companies have to maintain a mile long driveway?

For that matter, are there other concrete companies with the ability to practically serve the needs of the urban core? My impression was that the answer is that there's no one else, or at least no one else with the property/logistics access to deliver at scale and that there are time limits on pouring concrete that require keeping a company nearby or else construction gets a lot more expensive.

Consider how much could be developed if that stretch was the New New Rutherford Ave, not a private reservation for a private company.

This is where I'm totally lost as to what you're suggesting. There's a highway above it and it's sandwiched between the Orange Line tracks and freight/CR tracks. I don't see how you could build a single thing on the "Red"/untaxed land on your map other than the one rectangular block in the industrial park. Clearly you seem to have a different idea, but I'm not following what you see as being possible here.

---------

Edit: Looking at this further, more things seem odd. For example, at the southern end, BSG owns and is taxed for owning half of Galvin Green/Memorial Park and the Tobin off-ramp to New Rutherford that runs through it? That sounds like an odd form of charity.

 

[Wonk]

^ I haven't been over that way in a while, but I thought the BSG scales were on the access road immediately behind the BHCC parking lot closest the plant (just north of the Tobin ramps). That exit to Rutherford Ave is not a mile. Do they have another scale somewhere else? Or am I not reading the maps posted correctly?

Edit for clarity: If the discussion is about the access road they use to their equipment yard in the industrial park, that road is literally beneath the expressway. I was thinking there was a question if building out the BHCC parking lots on Rutherford Ave was being prevented by BSG access. Not really sure what you could easily be built under an interstate highway viaduct.

 

[BeyondRevenue]

^ I haven't been over that way in a while, but I thought the BSG scales were on the access road immediately behind the BHCC parking lot closest the plant (just north of the Tobin ramps). That exit to Rutherford Ave is not a mile. Do they have another scale somewhere else? Or am I not reading the maps posted correctly?
Edit for clarity: If the discussion is about the access road they use to their equipment yard in the industrial park, that road is literally beneath the expressway. I was thinking there was a question if building out the BHCC parking lots on Rutherford Ave was being prevented by BSG access. Not really sure what you could easily be built under an interstate highway viaduct.

The scales are as you say are near the south end. The opposite end of their world begins on the public but not public access road starting here, nearly a mile away.
Just because a road is beneath a highway does not make it, as implied above, worthless or free to companies we need. We need groceries but we wouldn't give away a mile of free parking to Star Market.

 

[JeffDowntown]

The scales are as you say are near the south end. The opposite end of their world begins on the public but not public access road starting here, nearly a mile away.
Just because a road is beneath a highway does not make it, as implied above, worthless or free to companies we need. We need groceries but we wouldn't give away a mile of free parking to Star Market.

We might be forced to give free parking to Star Market, if we eminent domained there other parking. Kind of what happened with BSG as I understand.

 

[BeyondRevenue]

Let me lay out a little clearer.
The complaint:
The state gave BSG a temporary perk in the early 90s and they still profit handsomely from it today. Last I checked, they are not a non-profit. In fact they're a massive corporation worth $63.76m in annual revenue and they're total worth is as opaque as their land holdings. ~$100m - who can say? They own a lot of property. Some it may actually be paid for and taxed!
I wouldn't speculate about other companies ability to provide the same services, especially when compared to this obviously publicly subsidized entity... that is unless we're getting free concrete! If that's the case then I'm all turned around on this. It's a weird fit of selective socialism, but okay. I'll play along.

The Big Point, Comrades: granted access is not ownership. This land is of the proletariat, not the bourgeoise, but they are treating it like it's theirs.
There's plenty more there beyond a simple access road. It's a good sized lot. There is a lot of BSG hardware strewn up and down this 'public' road. There is a lot of very usable land that the state could put out to bid to sell or rent. I'm saying we should let the market decide, you socialists! I will say this for The People's Concrete Concern: They built themselves a pretty good road beyond the northern choke point.

In fairness, I would need a solid accounting degree to figure out where to pay taxes (or how to dodge them) and a talented surveyor to confirm who I should (or should not) send the tax payments to.

What is it with some people on this thread who turn a blind eye to corruption? Not cool.

 

[BeyondRevenue]

We might be forced to give free parking to Star Market, if we eminent domained there other parking. Kind of what happened with BSG as I understand.

Debt. Paid. BSG was paid back with preferential contracts over and over and over.
If you want to talk eminent domain compensation just ask anybody who lived in the West End or where the Central Artery is now if they have their own road.
You can't continue to justify this.

 

[millerm277]

The state gave BSG a temporary perk in the early 90s and they still profit handsomely from it today.

The basic summary of my objection is rather simple - Does anyone know what the legal agreements involved actually say?

I find it unlikely BSG would have agreed to a "temporary" perk as you describe with some kind of sunset date.

It seems much more likely that the state agreed to give them an easement/rights (or something to that effect) in perpetuity to use the ground level of what was previously their land for anything not occupied by I-93 structure, in which case the state probably doesn't have a leg to stand on to renege on that agreement now without paying out big $.

BSG seems to be run by shrewd operators, and something along the lines of "if this agreement is cancelled, the state owes BSG the fair market value of the entire property plus 50%" or something else could easily be in such a contract. (perhaps that's a bit excessive, but you get the point).

 

[BeyondRevenue]

The basic summary of my objection is rather simple - Does anyone know what the legal agreements involved actually say?

I find it unlikely BSG would have agreed to a "temporary" perk as you describe with some kind of sunset date.

It seems much more likely that the state agreed to give them an easement/rights (or something to that effect) in perpetuity to use the ground level of what was previously their land for anything not occupied by I-93 structure, in which case the state probably doesn't have a leg to stand on to renege on that agreement now without paying out big $.

BSG seems to be run by shrewd operators, and something along the lines of "if this agreement is cancelled, the state owes BSG the fair market value of the entire property plus 50%" or something else could easily be in such a contract. (perhaps that's a bit excessive, but you get the point).

Well, at least you have questions... so that's a start.
A few things first before anyone can really respond beyond a making a contrarian speculation...
What was their original footprint?
What was the Big Dig agreement?
What has been negotiated?
Are the surrounding municipalities being compensated?
On the last one, Boston is taking virtually ALL the road wear and tear and it looks like Cambridge might be taking more in taxes... which was another thing that set me off! All of this should be in the City of Boston but resolving border disputes like that is damn near impossible.

While you're pondering all that check out this awful video of BSG's back lot.

 

[Brattle Loop]

So, first of all, the highway ramps make trying to figure out where and what is being talked about annoyingly difficult, so I've got questions.

First of them is this: where do the cement trucks actually go in and out of the BS&G facility? Is there an access point to BS&G somewhere down past where the Orange Line dives into the tunnel? Somewhere down here?

Because if there is, the only places for the trucks to go off of there would be either onto the road through the back end of the BHCC campus, or onto Rutherford. And while technically it looks like there's a (fairly-narrow) way to get through from the BHCC campus road to the industrial park area where BS&G's equipment yard is, it's quite narrow, doesn't look to be in great condition, and appears to be used for parking by BHCC and perhaps others.

The scales are as you say are near the south end. The opposite end of their world begins on the public but not public access road starting here, nearly a mile away.
Just because a road is beneath a highway does not make it, as implied above, worthless or free to companies we need. We need groceries but we wouldn't give away a mile of free parking to Star Market.

I'm assuming you're talking about the branch to the right that goes under the highway and the Orange Line and runs down to BS&G, not the public road serving the various industrial park customers.

Assuming that there is an access point to BS&G somewhere down near the Zakim just off the BHCC main parking lots, that's completely disconnected from their equipment yard in the industrial park. Meaning that the only way to shuttle equipment is over some kind of road, which can either be a.) a dedicated or semi-dedicated access road through an industrial wasteland under a maze of elevated highways or b.) public roads. But the only available public roads are the BHCC campus road and Rutherford. Is it not, perhaps, a relevant conversation that the state might think it's a bad idea to have cement mixers constantly shuttling either through the BHCC campus or pounding up and down Rutherford at all hours of the day? Especially where the access road under the highway is literally useless for building anything on, ever, because it's under a highway and between two railroads?!?

 

[JumboBuc]

This video is pure '90s glory:

Honestly the area inside a highway ramp with direct freight sidings and close access to a deepwater pier is pretty much the socially-optimal location for an urban concrete mixing facility.

archBoston is a hoot, though.

 

[BeyondRevenue]

Yes. You found Entrance 2

It's huge. So here's a.... map?

My point is that it's not worthless. It's usable and HYOOGE!
This video starts around Entrance 1 and sprints through most of the stuff in yellow. Nearly all of it is on the West of the Orange Line. BSG has carte blanche on everything from the Sullivan Square approach to the River.

If I was working for DCAM, I'd be having a yard sale... to sell some yard. Obviously no housing, but I think of the school bus company next door who'd love to have a bigger break on rent. A moving and storage company would fit. Any businesses displaced from the Hood Park would totally work. Or maybe if we want to keep in the family, the MBTA maintenance facility workers could park there and use the current parking area for train layover space. And it would be fine as a general truck route without compromising BSG's workflow at all.

Oh the possibilities! It's just been an ignored mess... on purpose... and that pisses me off.

 

[BeyondRevenue]

This video is pure '90s glory:

Honestly the area inside a highway ramp with direct freight sidings and close access to a deepwater pier is pretty much the socially-optimal location for an urban concrete mixing facility.

archBoston is a hoot, though.

I love all the analog gauges and big ol' gray panels. You could probably run the whole show from an iPhone app now.

Aggregate Industries has a deepwater pier in Chelsea so that must be something all the cool concrete kids must want. Of course BSG has their own railroads, railyards and sidings in their list of affiliate companies:
Rosenfeld Concrete, Southeastern Concrete, Lawrence Ready Mix, Manchester Sand & Gravel, Ossipee Aggregates, New Hampshire Northcoast (Rail?) and JMD Realty.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want them gone. I just want them to pony up like everybody else and quit acting like they're entitled to piss wherever they want to.

 

[JumboBuc]

I just want them to pony up like everybody else and quit acting like they're entitled to piss wherever they want to.

They were there first, though.