General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

tangent said:
Raise fares to pay for the system. Subsidize fares for the poor through welfare and the middle class through tax breaks and not through subsidized fares to obscure the real cost of the system. Putting more of the power of the purse back into people's hands is the only way to ensure that the transit system is responsive to the needs of paying riders and then transit expansion is about economics again and less about politics.
Click to expand...

The same could be said for automobile transportation. Automobile transportation keeps becoming more and more subsidized, as road costs keep increasing but use taxes (aka gas taxes) aren't being increased at the same rate.

On the other hand politicians have been more eager to raise public transit fares. What this does is incentives people to drive over taking public transit, and that is bad for traffic congestion and sustainability in the region.

So you can't look at transit like it has no competition, it most certainly does.
 
This auction is only for two units - 1009 & 1014. They are down at we like to call "Area 52", a MDOT facility in the old Harris Rebar building just south of SEMASS. Scrapping will occur there. If you scroll on all the thumbnail images, you'll see a photo of the building.

D
 
tysmith95 said:
The same could be said for automobile transportation. Automobile transportation keeps becoming more and more subsidized, as road costs keep increasing but use taxes (aka gas taxes) aren't being increased at the same rate.

On the other hand politicians have been more eager to raise public transit fares. What this does is incentives people to drive over taking public transit, and that is bad for traffic congestion and sustainability in the region.

So you can't look at transit like it has no competition, it most certainly does.
Click to expand...

Gas taxes are being decreased thanks to inflation and more fuel efficient vehicles. If drivers want to play the "who gets subsidized more" game, they will come out losers every time. Its obnoxious when drivers, who take billions away from non drivers and kill 30,000+ Americans every year, act like they are the responsible ones.
 
Kinopio said:
Gas taxes are being decreased thanks to inflation and more fuel efficient vehicles. If drivers want to play the "who gets subsidized more" game, they will come out losers every time. Its obnoxious when drivers, who take billions away from non drivers and kill 30,000+ Americans every year, act like they are the responsible ones.
Click to expand...

Gas tax, excise tax, sales tax on car, pike tolls, registration, inspection and license fees, etc. Also a car emits 99% less pollution than when I was a kid.

How does the T generate electricity? Solely renewable? And how about diesel fumes from trains and locomotives?

Cars are infititely more flexible than a train and that is why they are so succesful. People voted with their choice of transportation. Don’t make drivers out to be murderers it just shows the weakness in your agurments.
 
TallIsGood said:
Gas tax, excise tax, sales tax on car, pike tolls, registration, inspection and license fees, etc. Also a car emits 99% less pollution than when I was a kid.

How does the T generate electricity? Solely renewable? And how about diesel fumes from trains and locomotives?

Cars are infititely more flexible than a train and that is why they are so succesful. People voted with their choice of transportation. Don’t make drivers out to be murderers it just shows the weakness in your agurments.
Click to expand...
Pike tolls aren't indexed to inflation and fall. The gas tax isn't indexed to inflation and falls. Sales taxes are general so citing them about anything specific proves too much. Inspection and license fees aren't indexed to inflation and fall. Particulate improvements are real, but fuel efficiency improvements have been marginal (and will be forever because thermodynamics).
If you're going to truther the calculations go for it, but no one credible contests that transit is far better for the environment than driving, and that drivers do not pay the full costs of the externalities they impose.
 
FitchburgLine said:
Pike tolls aren't indexed to inflation and fall. The gas tax isn't indexed to inflation and falls. Sales taxes are general so citing them about anything specific proves too much. Inspection and license fees aren't indexed to inflation and fall. Particulate improvements are real, but fuel efficiency improvements have been marginal (and will be forever because thermodynamics).
If you're going to truther the calculations go for it, but no one credible contests that transit is far better for the environment than driving, and that drivers do not pay the full costs of the externalities they impose.
Click to expand...

No tax should be indexed to inflation. If they need to rise, then oir legislators should raise them.
 
DominusNovus said:
No tax should be indexed to inflation. If they need to rise, then oir legislators should raise them.
Click to expand...

Most taxes are ad valorem and assessed as percentages (e.g., income tax, payroll tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.) and thus automatically adjust with inflation. Gas tax is one of the few taxes that remains fixed despite changes in the nominal value of the taxed commodity.
 
DominusNovus said:
No tax should be indexed to inflation. If they need to rise, then oir legislators should raise them.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of taxes you pay are indexed to inflation by default. Transportation use taxes are the only significant taxes in my life that are not.
 
FitchburgLine said:
Pike tolls aren't indexed to inflation and fall. The gas tax isn't indexed to inflation and falls. Sales taxes are general so citing them about anything specific proves too much. Inspection and license fees aren't indexed to inflation and fall. Particulate improvements are real, but fuel efficiency improvements have been marginal (and will be forever because thermodynamics).
If you're going to truther the calculations go for it, but no one credible contests that transit is far better for the environment than driving, and that drivers do not pay the full costs of the externalities they impose.
Click to expand...

Sales taxes on cars is directly related.

You argue gas tax revenue is decreasing due to efficiency but now claim efficiency improvements are marginal.

T fares aren’t indexed to inflation (and most things in life aren’t).

Any issue with diesel bus, diesel locomotive particulate emissions? Any issue with emissions generated by power plants producing electricity for the subway?
 
TallIsGood said:
Sales taxes on cars is directly related.

You argue gas tax revenue is decreasing due to efficiency but now claim efficiency improvements are marginal.

T fares aren’t indexed to inflation (and most things in life aren’t).

Any issue with diesel bus, diesel locomotive particulate emissions? Any issue with emissions generated by power plants producing electricity for the subway?
Click to expand...

Sales tax on a car has nothing to do with transportation. It's the general sales tax applied to all purchases. The fact that you use that car for transportation is just a coincidence. If you spend $20k on a car and I spend $20k on some jewelry, it's not like your sales tax funds roads while mine funds something else. That's not how it works... My jewelry sales tax funds the roads for your car just as much as your car sales tax funds the roads for your car.

Most things in life ARE indexed to inflation. Anything that's value fluctuates according to market forces is automatically indexed to inflation (since market forces consider inflation). And any rate applied to any asset that's value fluctuates with market forces also automatically adjusts with inflation. The only things that don't automatically change with inflation are levels (not rates) set by regulatory bodies. That's not very many things...

And T fares increase way faster than the gas tax does. If T fares and the gas tax moved together in lock step, I think transit advocates would take it.

And is your argument that private vehicle travel is no worse for the environment than public transit? That's just flat out wrong. There's no argument here. You will find zero studies or analyses that show that private vehicle travel emits less emissions than trains or busses. This applies both at the aggregate and marginal level. Of course public transit produces some pollution, but it is nowhere near the amount produced by private vehicles.
 
TallIsGood said:
You argue gas tax revenue is decreasing due to efficiency but now claim efficiency improvements are marginal.

T fares aren’t indexed to inflation (and most things in life aren’t).

Any issue with diesel bus, diesel locomotive particulate emissions? Any issue with emissions generated by power plants producing electricity for the subway?
Click to expand...
Wrong- read my post again and note the word inflation. T fares have grown faster than inflation and much faster than any form of road tax. There are plentiful studies and papers demonstrating real pollution and efficiency benefits from transit. Here's one from the first page of google:
https://jamesrivertrans.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ComparativeEnergy.pdf
If you're going to make stupid whataboutist arguments, at least make interesting ones.
(And finally, I absolutely care about particulate emissions from commuter rail, as can be verified by looking at the report I coauthored on Regional Rail that mentions reduced PM2.5 emissions as a benefit.)
 
1% of sales tax goes to MBTA so there’s that.

MBTA subway fare went from $0.15 in 1949 to $2.25 now or 15X

Federal gas tax went from $0.01/g to $0.018/g now or 18X

I can’t find historical rates for Mass.
 
TallIsGood said:
1% of sales tax goes to MBTA so there’s that.

MBTA subway fare went from $0.15 in 1949 to $2.25 now or 15X

Federal gas tax went from $0.01/g to $0.018/g now or 18X

I can’t find historical rates for Mass.
Click to expand...

What about something more recent. Let's say in the last 25 years:

MBTA subway fare went from $0.85 in 1993 to $2.25 now (164% increase)

Federal gas tax went from $0.18/g in 1993 to $0.18/g now (NO INCREASE)

Mass gas tax went from $0.21/g in 1993 to $0.24/g now (15% increase)
 
TallIsGood said:
So then what grew faster all depends on time period selected.
Click to expand...

Umm duh!

Look at the shrinking of mass transit since 1949, and the growth of our interstates, suburbs, And the auto industry.

None of that happened organically. It was government subsidized "growth" that is somewhat now being corrected at ridiculously inflated prices.
 
We don't develop transit systems over short periods of time and inflation is negligible over short periods of time.
 
The Green Line is going to get a lot of attention from the MBTA in the next few years, with ambitious plans aimed at vastly increasing capacity and speeding up service with new vehicles and big infrastructure changes.

So rather than attack the issue piecemeal, the transit agency has hired someone to oversee the whole thing. Angel Pena began work this fall as the chief of the agency’s Green Line transformation...
Click to expand...
From today's Globe: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2018/11/12/boldtypes/c0nM7vHBvMMdjopx4Uol1O/story.html

Sounds good, but does anyone know more about what this actually means? (e.g., is there a summary doc/presentation that consolidates what scope is being considered this "transformation"?) (I am familiar with some of the bits and pieces mentioned, but would love to see an overall plan, inclusive of timeline).

EDIT: or is this just old news being repackaged by the Globe...this all seems to refer to the Type X program and it's associated infrastructure improvements.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top