General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

[Delvin4519]

Eng says MBTA is considering later night subway service

Eng is just on a roll. Here's hoping it can finally be done not half assed. Would be cool to include some CR lines, too, with a last late night train.

I wonder how feasible would it be to keep the KBRs up running later into the night.

When the T extends subway service for New Year's Eve celebrations, they couldn't be bothered to keep the key bus routes running. This leaves Everett and Roxbury without access to this type of late-night service, all because they depend on key bus routes instead of trains on rails.

If you live in Malden and want to access First Night Boston, the Orange Line is available. Live in Everett Square and want the same service? Too bad, no service. Yet someone at Coolidge Corner still has streetcar service available after First Night Boston on New Year's.

 

[737900er]

I wonder how feasible would it be to keep the KBRs up running later into the night.

When the T extends subway service for New Year's Eve celebrations, they couldn't be bothered to keep the key bus routes running. This leaves Everett and Roxbury without access to this type of late-night service, all because they depend on key bus routes instead of trains on rails.

If you live in Malden and want to access First Night Boston, the Orange Line is available. Live in Everett Square and want the same service? Too bad, no service. Yet someone at Coolidge Corner still has streetcar service available after First Night Boston on New Year's.

I think part of the problem with the KBRs is that they run out of every full-time garage except Quincy. Running them overnight would be much more appealing if they could be run out of 1-2 garages instead.

 

[bigeman312]

I think part of the problem with the KBRs is that they run out of every full-time garage except Quincy. Running them overnight would be much more appealing if they could be run out of 1-2 garages instead.

This seems like a very solvable problem. In fact, I bet Eng already has a solution.

 

[Teban54]

I think part of the problem with the KBRs is that they run out of every full-time garage except Quincy. Running them overnight would be much more appealing if they could be run out of 1-2 garages instead.

Considering that we've been running weekend service on bus routes that typically come from weekday-only garages (e.g. Fellsway, North Cambridge before 2022) with no problem, it should be very doable to assign 1-2 garages to run late night routes, even though with more dead mileage.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Considering that we've been running weekend service on bus routes that typically come from weekday-only garages (e.g. Fellsway, North Cambridge before 2022) with no problem, it should be very doable to assign 1-2 garages to run late night routes, even though with more dead mileage.

Charlestown and Cabot could pretty much run the whole late-night system. And they do have overnight shop shifts at those very big garages, so it's not like the lights aren't already on.

The bus facilities study of a decade ago that closed Fellsway in favor of a new Wellington yard that was to be a "super-campus" with Charlestown also aimed to idle Lynn on weekends, so the analysis already exists that off-peak consolidation saves them money. It's really only Quincy that might have to be a loss leader on the system by remaining open because of its distance from the big two Downtown-flanking garages, but it's questionable whether there'd even be much of a late-night presence out there to begin with.

 

[bigeman312]

Charlestown and Cabot could pretty much run the whole late-night system. And they do have overnight shop shifts at those very big garages, so it's not like the lights aren't already on.

The bus facilities study of a decade ago that closed Fellsway in favor of a new Wellington yard that was to be a "super-campus" with Charlestown also aimed to idle Lynn on weekends, so the analysis already exists that off-peak consolidation saves them money. It's really only Quincy that might have to be a loss leader on the system by remaining open because of its distance from the big two Downtown-flanking garages, but it's questionable whether there'd even be much of a late-night presence out there to begin with.

If we’re implementing later night service than exists today, Red Line service is more than adequate for Quincy for Phase 1. Red, Orange, Blue, Green, Silver, and the “Tx” routes of the BNRD should be more than adequate to start.

 

[737900er]

If we’re implementing later night service than exists today, Red Line service is more than adequate for Quincy for Phase 1. Red, Orange, Blue, Green, Silver, and the “Tx” routes of the BNRD should be more than adequate to start.

At a minimum, the end of the night Route 210 run from Fields Corner to Braintree would have to be moved to Cabot or have the last Braintree train wait at JFK/UMass (which is what they did when the system was open weekends 2am a few years ago).

 

[Teban54]

If we’re implementing later night service than exists today, Red Line service is more than adequate for Quincy for Phase 1. Red, Orange, Blue, Green, Silver, and the “Tx” routes of the BNRD should be more than adequate to start.

BNRD does have a 15-min corridor for Quincy, in the form of shared service between the 220 and the 222. Assuming late night service only covers Frequent Bus Routes -- which is most likely what will happen anyway -- that's the only possible logistical problem. But a single corridor should still be pretty easy to handle, and yeah, it doesn't need to be in Phase 1 of late night services.

 

[bigeman312]

BNRD does have a 15-min corridor for Quincy, in the form of shared service between the 220 and the 222. Assuming late night service only covers Frequent Bus Routes -- which is most likely what will happen anyway -- that's the only possible logistical problem. But a single corridor should still be pretty easy to handle, and yeah, it doesn't need to be in Phase 1 of late night services.

Exactly, which is why I specified “Tx” rather than 15 minute corridors. I don’t see a need for the 35/36, 220/222, or 442/445 to be in Phase 1. Let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[Delvin4519]

Exactly, which is why I specified “Tx” rather than 15 minute corridors. I don’t see a need for the 35/36, 220/222, or 442/445 to be in Phase 1. Let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good.

For the outer hubs, it is only needed to hit the major bus terminal itself. Perhaps only Quincy Center or Roslindale Square is far as desirable, and going further isn't as necessary as in the inner core streetcar suburbs.

 

[bigeman312]

For the outer hubs, it is only needed to hit the major bus terminal itself. Perhaps only Quincy Center or Roslindale Square is far as desirable, and going further isn't as necessary as in the inner core streetcar suburbs.

I agree on Quincy Center. For Roslindale, I think it makes more sense to run more late service on the Needham Line.

 

[Teban54]

I agree on Quincy Center. For Roslindale, I think it makes more sense to run more late service on the Needham Line.

Of course, that should be coupled with the real elephant in the room: Lower the fares on the Needham Line so that it doesn't take $6.50 to go to Roslindale with it.

 

[Delvin4519]

I agree on Quincy Center. For Roslindale, I think it makes more sense to run more late service on the Needham Line.

I wonder if it'd just be better to take the N39 (night 39 bus) from Forest Hills and extend it to Roslindale Square as the N39E. It could also be interlined with the N32 (night 32 bus) by simply detouring it onto Washington to serve Rozzie Square, before returning back to Hyde Park Ave.

The distance from Forest Hills isn't that long. It's only 4-5 minutes from the 39's terminus at Forest Hills at 2 a.m. in the middle of the night. It's a lot more managable than extending something from Fields Corner to Quincy Center, which is 16 - 18 minutes during late night hours.

 

[737900er]

I wonder if it'd just be better to take the N39 (night 39 bus) from Forest Hills and extend it to Roslindale Square as the N39E. It could also be interlined with the N32 (night 32 bus) by simply detouring it onto Washington to serve Rozzie Square, before returning back to Hyde Park Ave.

The distance from Forest Hills isn't that long. It's only 4-5 minutes from the 39's terminus at Forest Hills at 2 a.m. in the middle of the night. It's a lot more managable than extending something from Fields Corner to Quincy Center, which is 16 - 18 minutes during late night hours.

I think alternate night routings would be optimal for several routes, particularly if they are designed around a specific running time to generate timed transfers and reduce layovers. At the same time, that could be confusing for infrequent riders.

 

[nortor]

I’d really like to see night bus services running on subway routes, like in Toronto. The capacity of the subways isn’t needed and it is much more pleasant to ride a bus at night than an almost empty subway. Depending on demand they could even add intermediate request stops. And night service on the subway would also take away time for maintenance. I don’t know what the limitations on this would be from an operator perspective though, but I don’t imagine it would be harder to hire additional bus drivers than subway operators?

 

[Stlin]

In addition to late night, expansion of service hours the other way the early mornings shouldn't be left out - I'm hosting a med student on rotation, and they need to arrive at BMC by 5am. That's not a bad trip from my condo on transit, except for the fact it doesn't run early enough for them. 5am is when the system starts to wake up for its first trips, so they're driving because they don't have another realistic option. Really, I'd love to see a proposal that maintains at least 30 min frequencies for the KBRs 24/7.

I’d really like to see night bus services running on subway routes, like in Toronto. The capacity of the subways isn’t needed and it is much more pleasant to ride a bus at night than an almost empty subway. Depending on demand they could even add intermediate request stops. And night service on the subway would also take away time for maintenance. I don’t know what the limitations on this would be from an operator perspective though, but I don’t imagine it would be harder to hire additional bus drivers than subway operators?

I don't disagree that this would be a huge get, especially for Blue where the harbor is in the way, but I feel that the biggest headache here is what we've been experiencing with the diversions - there really isn't a good parallel corridor for most of them. I realize it'd be less problematic in the middle of the night when there's no traffic, but I'd still suggest "alternate late night" routings where it'd be "close enough" for people to walk the last ½ mile.

Take Blue - the Sumner / Callahan portals are by Haymarket, and the street routing from State/Aquarium, especially outbound, would force you to make a loop through downtown. You might as well make a couple of extra stops, or just run late night service to Eastie using Haymarket.

 

[Delvin4519]

I’d really like to see night bus services running on subway routes, like in Toronto. The capacity of the subways isn’t needed and it is much more pleasant to ride a bus at night than an almost empty subway. Depending on demand they could even add intermediate request stops. And night service on the subway would also take away time for maintenance. I don’t know what the limitations on this would be from an operator perspective though, but I don’t imagine it would be harder to hire additional bus drivers than subway operators?

It wouldn't be possible. The street grid doesn't align with the rail grid. Only the Green Line's B, C, and E branches are busable, plus Red between Charles and Porter.

You can't have a night route paralleling Orange south of the city. You have to use either Washington or Huntington. Using Huntington is most ideal to serve Brookline Village, not Forest Hills. A Nubian route is best suited to pick up Forest Hills. North of the city, a route into Malden must serve Everett, not Wellington. With Red, you have to use Dot Ave, so serving JFK on a night bus is out of the question no matter what. If you're not on a main arterial that's directly aimed at downtown, then it is likely there is no good way for night service to realistically reach you. A night bus has to make the most direct trajectory between downtown and the terminal as fast as possible to complete a cycle.

I think alternate night routings would be optimal for several routes, particularly if they are designed around a specific running time to generate timed transfers and reduce layovers. At the same time, that could be confusing for infrequent riders.

One thing with Boston is that areas needing night service is not a single hub, so if you're in Longwood or Airport and want to get to Forest Hills or Chelsea, the night network potentially may require a circuitous route. In addition, not all routes map cleanly to a single running time takt. The city is also just a smidge too big to get hourly service. You'd get routes that need 80 minutes to cycle back to Downtown. Put 2 buses onto the route and you're at 40 minute headways.

 

[bakgwailo]

It wouldn't be possible. The street grid doesn't align with the rail grid. Only the Green Line's B, C, and E branches are busable, plus Red between Charles and Porter.

You can't have a night route paralleling Orange south of the city. You have to use either Washington or Huntington. Using Huntington is most ideal to serve Brookline Village, not Forest Hills. A Nubian route is best suited to pick up Forest Hills. North of the city, a route into Malden must serve Everett, not Wellington. With Red, you have to use Dot Ave, so serving JFK on a night bus is out of the question no matter what. If you're not on a main arterial that's directly aimed at downtown, then it is likely there is no good way for night service to realistically reach you. A night bus has to make the most direct trajectory between downtown and the terminal as fast as possible to complete a cycle.



One thing with Boston is that areas needing night service is not a single hub, so if you're in Longwood or Airport and want to get to Forest Hills or Chelsea, the night network potentially may require a circuitous route. In addition, not all routes map cleanly to a single running time takt. The city is also just a smidge too big to get hourly service. You'd get routes that need 80 minutes to cycle back to Downtown. Put 2 buses onto the route and you're at 40 minute headways.

That is correct. Having attempted to take the Night Owl Service (there were dozens of us!) way back when to Forest Hills on numerous occasions it was a total cluster due to the bus routes not aligning in any way to the subway route - so much so that even the drivers were getting it wrong. Running late night subway service every 20-30 minutes I think is fine and would eventually gain decent ridership - the previous attempt was still OK, even as the T sabotaged it by cutting back its hours before scuttling it all together.

As for maintenance: I wonder if this is related to Eng also suggesting they might try more single track running. Back in the old pilot I argued that if they had the proper crossovers they could go down to single track running even after 10pm and give big windows for maintenance on the unused sides and with a good schedule could get as much if not more maintenance in while still providing a good enough level of late night service. Pretty interested to see how this will be approached in the next year. Pretty exciting times at the MBTA (finally).

 

[TheRatmeister]

It wouldn't be possible. The street grid doesn't align with the rail grid. Only the Green Line's B, C, and E branches are busable, plus Red between Charles and Porter.

It's definitely possible, at least mostly. The Red Line directly follows Mass Ave/Main St from Porter to Charles/MGH, and then pretty closely follows Dorchester Ave from Broadway all the way to Ashmont, while North Quincy to Quincy Adams is paralleled by Newport Ave and Burgin Pkwy. The southern OL roughly follows Tremont/Columbus/Washington between Mass Ave and Forest Hills, and Bennington St/Ocean Ave follows the BL from Airport to Wonderland. The only section that would be really difficult would be the northern Orange Line, but thanks to the third track this also the easiest section to operate 24 hours a day, connecting to a bus at Community College.

 

[HenryAlan]

I think alternate night routings would be optimal for several routes, particularly if they are designed around a specific running time to generate timed transfers and reduce layovers. At the same time, that could be confusing for infrequent riders.

I agree, this is the way to do it. I visited Prague back in the 90s and was really impressed by the night tram service, which was based on completely different routes from the day time service. The night trams hit every stop, but followed much less direct routes in doing so. Something similar with bus routes should be quite feasible to design. The wandering paths the buses take wouldn't be too much of a time suck, as traffic would be light and most stops would typically not have any passengers.