General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

[Shepard]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Does the T "operate" that far in the red anyway? My impression is that the numbers only become dire when you account for capital and debt servicing. "Solving" the MBTA crisis is therefore more about federal, state ad MBTA finance and policy than it is directly operational.

 

[jass]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Thanks Jass. That's kind of how I had it figured in my head.

There may be some other small incidental costs with perhaps extra customer service requests, security issues, extra time spent cleaning stations & vehicles, etc...

When an operation is as big as the MBTA, adding up all that is still insignificant.

The big two* are labor and vehicle maintenance. Picking up 3 extra newspapers doesnt cost anything, nor does have a rep answer 12 questions instead of 11.


*As mentioned above, debt, but thats a whole other issue.

 

[Arborway]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The media doesn't seem to be picking up on it either. I'm not sure why there's all this fuss surrounding only the highway tunnels, there needs to be more awareness about it. It really is quite atrocious. The first time I road the Silver Line, I almost got sick from all the bumping around. It's only worse now with all the deterioration.

So how did things go on Monday?

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

jrc520 (from RR.net) and I were both at the meeting. Most info begins here (starting with a post halfway down the page, from jrc520): http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=78425&start=15

I was rather impressed with the whole thing, it was really nice. And Davey is pretty awesome.

However, there were 15-20 people there, and most of them don't understand things beyond "the Green Line sucks, why?" or something. But there was still time to get great questions, discussions, and answers in there. MBTA priority will be coming for the Silver Line at D Street and Green Line along the C Line relatively soon. Commuter Rail Charlie Card compatibility is apparently moving along nicely.

The only thing that wasn't so great is Davey's seemingly reluctant support of the South Coast Rail Project. He'd definitely like to see that money coming into the MBTA, but he did his best to justify the project (which frankly I don't think he even has himself sold on it).

I did not have a chance to ask about the quality of the SL tunnel, and I wish I did. I'm working on getting into further contact with him and/or other senior staff that were there. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get anyone's card, but jrc520 got one guy's card to keep in contact.

 

[omaja]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I like how someone mentioned that the MBTA might be considering further stop consolidation on the Green Line. BU East, St Paul St, Babcock St and Allston St at a minimum could all be eliminated to improve efficiency. Combining more evenly spaced stops (about every 3/10ths of a mile between Packard's Corner and Kenmore) with signal prioritization and the B Line might work like it should out west.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I like how someone mentioned that the MBTA might be considering further stop consolidation on the Green Line. BU East, St Paul St, Babcock St and Allston St at a minimum could all be eliminated to improve efficiency. Combining more evenly spaced stops (about every 3/10ths of a mile between Packard's Corner and Kenmore) with signal prioritization and the B Line might work like it should out west.

Indeed.

What happened was someone suggested BU puts a Charlie Card chip in everyone's student ID and everyone has a semester pass (something like $85) tacked onto their tuition, that way, they aren't sneaking in the back doors unaccounted for. Davey had already talked to BU and they said "they don't want to add anymore fees to the tuition". Everyone laughed that $85 would break the camel's back on top of $40,000. And then someone suggested threatening to remove a stop, then Davey started getting all cheeky when he broke the news that stop consolidation along the B line is already being weighed heavily.

 

[omaja]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Great to know. That honestly cannot come soon enough. More frequent three-car trains during rush hours would be excellent as well.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Great to know. That honestly cannot come soon enough. More frequent three-car trains during rush hours would be excellent as well.

They're studying the Green Line's power grid to see how far they can push 3-car trains. Davey said the power grid hasn't received any major power upgrades in ages and likely can't handle it. There's a power study under way to see how many they can run without power cutting in and out, and how they can rewire the power blocks to allow for even more.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I like how someone mentioned that the MBTA might be considering further stop consolidation on the Green Line. BU East, St Paul St, Babcock St and Allston St at a minimum could all be eliminated to improve efficiency. Combining more evenly spaced stops (about every 3/10ths of a mile between Packard's Corner and Kenmore) with signal prioritization and the B Line might work like it should out west.

The ones most in need of consolidation are Back of the Hill and Fenwood on the street-running E. Fenwood's exactly 1 block away from Brigham Circle and has 343 daily boardings vs. 2535 at Brigham per the 2010 MBTA Blue Book ridership stats. And BoTH is 1-1/2 blocks from Riverway and Heath with only 86 boardings--lowest on the system--vs. 664 for Riverway and 622 for Heath. And that wasn't even a historic Arborway Line stop...it was inexplicably added to the map in 1989. The ridership craterings there are the most telltale indicators that those stops are redundant and well inferior to the next-closest ones. It would probably attract more ridership to do away with those and have a faster trip with only two in-street boardings on the branch. The consolidation would give them ample justification for adding safety features like traffic-calming crosswalks, more signage, flashing lights, etc. at Mission Park and Riverway to make those more enticing boarding options.

Other utterly useless ones to ditch are Brandon Hall (300 ft. from Fairbanks, serves no intersection, only 316 boardings) and Dean Rd. (1 block from Tappan St., 2 blocks from Englewood, 1-1/2 blocks from Beaconsfield on the D, no buses stop there, only 316 boardings) on the C. Hawes is a push, but its ridership doesn't crater nearly as badly between stops as BH and Dean so I think it's pulling its weight enough to hedge on keeping. Plus eliminating 3 stops vs. 2 is going to spook Brookline a bit.


I don't think there's anything more that can be done to the B because BU will never give up its stops. The station spacing is totally dysfunctional through campus, and the usage too well-entrenched. They missed their chance to rein it in when they blew a wad overbudget rebuilding both BU East and Central instead of doing the logical thing and combining the two. I think the outer portions of the line are fine, though. Griggs St. and Allston St. both board over 1100 per day. The only one I think they have to fix is South St., which is too close to Chestnut Hill Ave. and only boards 237 a day because of it. The spacing got messed up when they eliminated Greycliff Rd. I think they ought to back it up a block to Foster St. where the street grid makes it a whole lot less redundant than South vs. Chestnut Hill and where it's right at the midpoint between BC and CH. Too long and hilly to eliminate the stop entirely and go express between CH and BC, but the ridership should improve a bit if the intermediate stop were placed more usefully.

 

[Shepard]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Notes on the C line: I agree about Brandon Hall - not necessary. Fairbanks is an interesting case - only one block from WSQ but various stairway paths up both Summit and Aspinwall hills feed directly into it, which isn't so evident by looking at a map. I think this accounts for the high rush hour volumes despite the redundancy. Hawes is fine although without signal priority the train always seems to get stuck there. St Paul also needs signal priority badly: two long left turn cycles bog the train down for ages.

 

[omaja]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I don't think there's anything more that can be done to the B because BU will never give up its stops. The station spacing is totally dysfunctional through campus, and the usage too well-entrenched. They missed their chance to rein it in when they blew a wad overbudget rebuilding both BU East and Central instead of doing the logical thing and combining the two. I think the outer portions of the line are fine, though. Griggs St. and Allston St. both board over 1100 per day. The only one I think they have to fix is South St., which is too close to Chestnut Hill Ave. and only boards 237 a day because of it. The spacing got messed up when they eliminated Greycliff Rd. I think they ought to back it up a block to Foster St. where the street grid makes it a whole lot less redundant than South vs. Chestnut Hill and where it's right at the midpoint between BC and CH. Too long and hilly to eliminate the stop entirely and go express between CH and BC, but the ridership should improve a bit if the intermediate stop were placed more usefully.

I can't really speak of the other branches' need for consolidation as much as I can for the B. But your suggestions seem to make a lot of sense to me.

As far as the B Line is considered, does 1000+ boardings constitute a reasonable success? All stations east of Washington Street are 1500+ except BU West, Saint Paul Street, Pleasant Street, Allston Street, and Griggs Street. Using 1500 boardings as the bare minimum for stations between Kenmore and Washington Street, the following could happen to get above that threshold:

-Split BU East's 2892 boardings between Blandford and BU Central.
-Combine BU West (899) and Saint Paul Street (814) to reach 1713 boardings at a consolidated station.
-Splitting Babcock's boardings between Pleasant Street and Packard's Corner would be helpful as well.
-An eliminated Allston Street stop will split its 1100 boardings with Griggs Street and Warren Street, bringing their boardings to 1810 and 2200, respectively.

You can tell just by virtue of those stations being sub-1500 in boardings that they are underutilized due to close proximity and market cannibalization.

I definitely agree South Street should be moved to Foster. Just goes to show that sometimes closing the less busy station (Greycliff) doesn't always work.

 

[jass]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

^^

You cannot assume that removing a station will result in the ridership going to a new station.

Some will start taking the bus.

Some will drop transit altogether.

 

[omaja]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

But we're talking about changes in distance between stations of 1/5 mile or less. Bottom line is that many of the B Line stations are cannibalizing traffic from each other.

I'd be willing to bet that no one who is currently using the B Line will ditch transit altogether if stops like Allston Street were eliminated. That demand won't change in any real way because there is no bus that is more convenient and driving is still hugely expensive. We're talking about consolidating stops that are within two minutes' walking distance from one another. For those passengers, walking the extra two minutes will more than make up for the the increased efficiency and decrease in delays due to excessive and unnecessary stops along the way.

 

[jass]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

But we're talking about changes in distance between stations of 1/5 mile or less. Bottom line is that many of the B Line stations are cannibalizing traffic from each other.

I'd be willing to bet that no one who is currently using the B Line will ditch transit altogether if stops like Allston Street were eliminated. That demand won't change in any real way because there is no bus that is more convenient and driving is still hugely expensive. We're talking about consolidating stops that are within two minutes' walking distance from one another. For those passengers, walking the extra two minutes will more than make up for the the increased efficiency and decrease in delays due to excessive and unnecessary stops along the way.

They absolutely will.

A BU student who buys the semester MBTA pass will seriously reconsider if they can no longer ride from BU Central to BU East everyday. Yes, people who live further out hate these riders, but why is one commute more important than anothers? The 2 minute walk is exactly why these people are riding.

And the 57 is absolutely more convenient (its always faster)


Why is this bad for the MBTA?

A BU student who drops their pass and goes to a pay-per-ride system will ride much less. Instead of (for example) 4 rides a day, they might go to twice a week (ie, roundtrip to Gvt Center).

Ridership is the MBTA's most important metric.

 

[bbfen]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Ridership is the MBTA's most important metric.

Which has always been a concern to me with the way the T reports. It is an important metric but not the only one. The parallel question is "How long do they stay aboard".

 

[omaja]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

They absolutely will.

A BU student who buys the semester MBTA pass will seriously reconsider if they can no longer ride from BU Central to BU East everyday. Yes, people who live further out hate these riders, but why is one commute more important than anothers? The 2 minute walk is exactly why these people are riding.

That is patently absurd. BU students don't get semester passes based on whether or not they can travel 1/5th of a mile by trolley. It isn't about one commute being more important; it is about the efficiency of the overall system. An extra two minutes is nothing when the trains will actually show up when they are scheduled to.

And the 57 is absolutely more convenient (its always faster)


Why is this bad for the MBTA?

A BU student who drops their pass and goes to a pay-per-ride system will ride much less. Instead of (for example) 4 rides a day, they might go to twice a week (ie, roundtrip to Gvt Center).

Ridership is the MBTA's most important metric.

And I contend that shuttering four or so stops that are within 1100 feet of each other will not adversely affect ridership.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

That is patently absurd. BU students don't get semester passes based on whether or not they can travel 1/5th of a mile by trolley. It isn't about one commute being more important; it is about the efficiency of the overall system. An extra two minutes is nothing when the trains will actually show up when they are scheduled to.

But they do. When the total trip is only from dorm to class or from class to class, a 1/5-mile difference can be a significant portion of the walking distance. Shuttle stops on college campuses are routinely spaced incredibly short distances apart for this reason. If I live 3/4-mile from class along Comm. Ave, the 1.5 blocks further I'd have to walk before waiting for the trolley might make it more appealing to just walk the whole way.

The issue is that the B Line straddles the boundary between Streetcar (where a 1.5-2 block station separation is pretty reasonable) and Light Rail, where it is shorter. For BU students, it serves as the former. For commuters from Chestnut Hill, the latter. Those people will also be willing to walk farther to a new station, since there may not be as many attractive alternatives.

 

[jass]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

That is patently absurd. BU students don't get semester passes based on whether or not they can travel 1/5th of a mile by trolley.

Except that they do.

Blandford Street (School of Management) to BU Central (School of Theology) is 0.4 miles, or 8 minutes walking, according to google directions.

Add in time inside building (3rd floor to 3rd floor) and this trip between classes is looking at 12 minutes.

BU gives 10 minutes between classes. Most professors do not approve of students being late.

Students absolutely walk out the building looking over their shoulder to see if the train is arriving to take them 2 stops.

And again, thats just between Balndford and BU Central. Classrooms span from Kenmore Square to Pleasant St.

1.1 miles, or 24 minute walk.

You still only get 10 minutes.

Which has always been a concern to me with the way the T reports. It is an important metric but not the only one. The parallel question is "How long do they stay aboard".

Why do you think that? A pass is a pass, MBTA doesnt care if youre just riding to enjoy the AC. Doesnt cost them anything.



One way to fix the problem?

Local stops on Worcester line.

Newtonville, Brighton1, Brighton 2, Allston1, Allston 2, BU Bridge, Yawkey, BB, SS.

That way, those further out commuters can take the DMU or the C or D line, and let the B line continue as a streetcar.

 

[KentXie]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I thought BU have their own shuttles. Why can't students take those if they come frequently enough?

 

[jass]

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I thought BU have their own shuttles. Why can't students take those if they come frequently enough?

Those are to get to the BU medical center from the river campus. And the dorm on Beacon/Mass Ave

2 or 3 years ago they were expanded to service the river campus at night, not sure if that is still running.