General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

They're not supposed to be here until 2012 or 2013, and then they have to go through months of non-service testing.

First test unit next fall if all goes well at the factory, but as a test unit it goes back to the plant for modifications before seeing service and before the others get built. 2013-2014 for the full 20-locomotive order if it stays on schedule, and there's an escalator clause in the contract to double the order to 40 total locomotives for 2015 if they like what they see on the initial units. The escalator almost always gets activated if the things aren't lemons (e.g. Bredas), so the tack-on order would later knock the T's shitty GP40 locos into retirement in addition to the F40 'screamers' retired by the initial order. 2 more winters we're gonna have to get by on the threadbare existing fleet and the two rental locos from MARC, although 3 GP40's out for overhaul should be back next month to keep this winter's roster slightly less dire than last winter's.

The 75 new bi-level coaches, however, should be arriving in large numbers next year with test units likely by end of winter. That one's a 2012-2013 deployment. Also has an escalator clause to double the order, so we'll almost certainly be getting 150 total bi-levels by '14. That'll retire the truly decrepit 1987-vintage MBB single-levels with the rotting floors and malfunctioning toilets, with the escalator retiring most or all of the '87-90 era Bombardier single-levels. Goal is that by second half of the decade they run nothing but bi-levels on most lines and banish the remaining class of 54 single-levels (the 32-year-old Pullmans, which were recently rebuilt like-new) to light-duty lines like Fairmount, Needham, etc.

Good way to increase capacity on all lines without needing to attach more cars or doing P.I.T.A. platform lengthenings. 1-1/2 times the per-car seating capacity for every replaced single-level. Also reduces labor costs a bit with the union rule for 1 conductor per every 2 cars. Those empty late night and Sunday trains can reduce staff by only opening the front couple of bi-levels and closing off any extra cars in the consist.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

F-Line to Dudley;132447 Good way to increase capacity on all lines without needing to attach more cars or doing P.I.T.A. platform lengthenings. 1-1/2 times the per-car seating capacity for every replaced single-level. Also reduces labor costs a bit with the union rule for 1 conductor per every 2 cars. Those empty late night and Sunday trains can reduce staff by only opening the front couple of bi-levels and closing off any extra cars in the consist.[/QUOTE said:
F-Line -- everything sounded good up to: "Those empty late night and Sunday trains can reduce staff by only opening the front couple of bi-levels and closing off any extra cars in the consist."

that sounds like the 19th century solution -- there should be new 'BudLiners" running as single car units during those times --- it makes no sense at all dragging around empty cars

for that matter it really makes no sense dragging passenger cars from the front -- that's a remnant of steam boilers being very heavy -- they should all be elctric traction units that are self propelled with a "genarator engine" providing power to the rest of the coaches for use on the un-electrified lines or low-use branchs off the mains -- all of the mains should be electricfied as soon as practicable
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

F-Line -- everything sounded good up to: "Those empty late night and Sunday trains can reduce staff by only opening the front couple of bi-levels and closing off any extra cars in the consist."

that sounds like the 19th century solution -- there should be new 'BudLiners" running as single car units during those times --- it makes no sense at all dragging around empty cars

for that matter it really makes no sense dragging passenger cars from the front -- that's a remnant of steam boilers being very heavy -- they should all be elctric traction units that are self propelled with a "genarator engine" providing power to the rest of the coaches for use on the un-electrified lines or low-use branchs off the mains -- all of the mains should be electricfied as soon as practicable

They have to run a certain number of cars on the train for braking, since each car shares the braking load for the full consist. Otherwise it's a light engine move and is speed-restricted to under 30 MPH. Locomotives aren't designed to haul at full speed with less than X axles of braking. Electrics are no different here. I think 3 cars is the minimum you can do at full speed: 2 coaches, 1 rear control cab. Most of the control cabs are single-level. I agree it's senseless waste to run long consists off-peak with half the cars closed. If they are so tapped out of space at Southampton Yard that they are unable to break consists at all during the day, then they have to get on with expanding Readville yard so there's staging space to make that possible. But those 11:00pm Sunday runs? Yeah, 3 cars with an empty is what you get. It's not a bug it's a feature when the locomotive performs WORSE with fewer cars. That's the only way the existing equipment scales to run a monster 7-car bi-level Providence rush hour train. The T doesn't have any lines so low ridership like it did in the 60's where trips to Bedford or Hudson or West Medway ran once per commute with a single Budd car, so under-utilized consist on the last run of the weekend is pretty small price to pay for the revenue growth of being able to haul 7 185-seat bi-levels when it counts.

Absolutely, though, they can staff some off-peaks with just 1 conductor working the front open bi-levels with the rear cab closed off. Better solution than having 3 of 4 singles open with the mandated 2 conductors on-staff. This would work well on some lines like Fitchburg that only open the front doors at the mini-high end of the platforms well off-peak.


MU's would be great, but until there's ultra-high density "Indigo Lines" short-turning everywhere inside 128 it's cost-prohibitive to mix equipment so radically different. There's a reason why Metro North, Long Island Railroad, and SEPTA are all-EMU save for a few sparsely-trafficked diesel shuttles, but NJ Transit sandwiched in between those districts is all push-pull even in electric territory. Those systems have used their respective car types for 90 years. There's not great enough performance difference to wholesale-switch the T to MU's and build a billion-dollar maintenance facility staffed with MU-trained mechanics while the nearest such comparative facility is 100 miles away in New Haven. The T already faced this same problem when it bought its 100% Budd DMU northside from B&M and had to integrate it with the leftovers of 100% push-pull Boston & Albany and 80% push-pull New Haven RR on the southside. It took 15 years of chaos and not maintaining the track to sort out all the resources the equipment mess sucked up, and the Budds were the ones that had to go because they were most worn out and could be stretched past their self-powered lifetime by being converted into unpowered coaches. Those F40's still in service today used to pull a bunch of old de-motored Budds behind them until the last of those cars were retired in '89 or '90.

I think it would be too disruptive to go all-MU, and too far down the priority list. They can get almost as big a performance boost by using the existing coaches with electric locos on Providence and eventually Fairmount and Worcester. And it's not like they would break up over-long consists any more with DMU's than they do shrinking subway cars from 6 to 4 late at night. There's always the excuse that it's too labor-intensive for the yard crews. Some sort of DMU for the inner suburbs would be great, but that's not feasible until there's more than 2 manufacturers selling them in the U.S. and selling them in large numbers to bring the price point down. It's puzzling that nobody's picked up Budd's almost-perfect carbody design and put more modern guts in it to mass-produce on the cheap. All of Budd Co.'s patents have long expired; it's basically a public domain design for anyone who wants it. There's a reason why almost every still-operating Budd in existence is in active service on whatever small RR can get their hands on one; they're damn good cars when taken care of.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Green line watchers: I've been seeing more and more coupled type 8s, which used to be exceedingly rare. Does anyone know if type 7s are being retired - or perhaps there's another reason why they are coupling type 8s?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The oldest Type 7s have been having door failures lately. That probably has something to do with it.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

F-Line -- All I need to do is "poke you with a stick" -- and you respond with a dissertation

You are a great source of information on transit and rail technology and process for the forum and -- while I don't always drink beer -- when i do its F-line ;=} LOL

Stay thirsty for knowledge my friends and Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, or whatever winter solsticial celebratory activity you find appropriate and fulfilling
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Green line watchers: I've been seeing more and more coupled type 8s, which used to be exceedingly rare. Does anyone know if type 7s are being retired - or perhaps there's another reason why they are coupling type 8s?

I have been noticing this and get quite bummed when a type 8-only train rolls up. I always go for the type 7 car because the 8s are so uncomfortable with the incredibly awkward layout that makes them feel much smaller than they are. I would love for the 8s to be replaced by something like a Citadis tram - 100 low-floor, better seating, more usable space.

http://www.livestreets.ru/en/2010/12/return-of-the-tram/
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I have been noticing this and get quite bummed when a type 8-only train rolls up. I always go for the type 7 car because the 8s are so uncomfortable with the incredibly awkward layout that makes them feel much smaller than they are. I would love for the 8s to be replaced by something like a Citadis tram - 100 low-floor, better seating, more usable space.

http://www.livestreets.ru/en/2010/12/return-of-the-tram/

This has also been bumming me out because I always go for the type-7s too! Idk, they feel cozier to me. I'm typically on from (nearly) one end to the other and it makes a difference.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

My least favorite right now is the Chief of Police:

"Do you have a cellphone? Of course you do! ...."

Fuuuuuuck you.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Davey rules: No punishment. This went all the way to the top. Thank god he has a sense of humor and spirit for the season.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/morning/mbta-update-fa-la-la-la-prank-20111227

Also in this video is Davey talking about the deficit, fare increases and service changes. He also announces subway countdowns due next year!!!
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

This has also been bumming me out because I always go for the type-7s too! Idk, they feel cozier to me. I'm typically on from (nearly) one end to the other and it makes a difference.

My commute is the exact same and plain and simple - the 8s are not as comfortable. The longitudinal seating isn't suited well for 45-minute-plus commutes. Not to mention the partial low-floor layout means a lot of wasted standing space and the car feeling crowded with far fewer people.

I'm also not sure if it is due to the hand controls but I feel like a train that is led by a type 8 is usually a much rougher, jerkier ride. Overall, a very poor design and I will be sad to see more 7s disappear.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I always, always go for the 8s over the 7s. I prefer the steady whine of the 8 over the squeaking chirps of the 7. I like the well-lit streamlined interior of the 8 over the dark and shadowy faux-wood perversion of the 7. And I find that even with the interior stairs there is far more comfortable standing room on the 8 than on the 7, and getting in and out of seats is much easier as well. I'm neither big nor especially tall, but I always feel cramped in the 7s seats, to boot. I think the pro-7 lobby suffers from misplaced nostalgia.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I prefer the T8 interiors, ride quality (T7 wobble so much from being top heavy), and longitudinal seating. I do not like the high-low design which creates dangerous steps and takes away capacity.

I don't understand why the MBTA doesn't use the same seating and interior fixtures on all their vehicles. Having all the buses, trams, and heavy rail subway trains sharing common seating, straps, grab railing, lighting, signage, etc. would make so much more sense for maintenance and cost saving purposes. There would be a certain system wide uniformity as well.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The thing the Type 7's have going for them are the exterior aesthetic superiority and the operational reliability. The Type 8's seem to be prone to software/power crashes and they had numerous derailment problems in their introduction. A 100% low floor Type 8 (ie: the Type 9's which were expected (not sure if we should still hold out hope)) would be great, but still incredibly ugly on the outside.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I think the pro-7 lobby suffers from misplaced nostalgia.

I moved to Boston 5 years ago and have always preferred the 7s, no misplaced nostalgia involved. To me the 8s are clunky and odd, falling short of what a modernization should have been. Definitely a missed opportunity compared to what other cities have done with their light rail vehicles.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The 3700's are by far the best vehicles on the Green Line. Door chimes are loud but not as ear-piercing shrill as the Type 8's, the vents really blast that air around making them the warmest vehicles when it's cold out and coolest vehicles when it's hot out, and they seem to be a lot brighter inside (and neutrally-colored...I hate that periwinkle scheme on the 8's). They used to also have the clearest PA speakers and announcement chime on the fleet until they installed the ASA system with its crappier amps.


Supposedly the long overdue rebuild of the 3600's starts next year, but it's still not funded. They've already delayed it 3 years. These door problems are the leading indicators that the things are worn out. So are coupling issues where the operator has to shut off and "reboot" the car. Door gears and coupler electronics are always the first to go. Hopefully they don't let them decay as far as the Boeings when they were wheezing their last and had to "reboot" every couple of stops. If they delay that rebuild again the winters are going to be a disabled train nightmare.

Plus it's getting to the point where they're risking shortening these cars' lifespans by not keeping anywhere close to their overhaul schedule. There's no reason why those 1986-vintage cars can't last 40-45 years from how inherently rock-solid they are. But slack off on the mandated 25-year overhaul and you're taking 3 years off its potential lifespan for every year they procrastinate. They did it to the PCC fleet, and we had to suffer a quarter century of car shortages from how many they had to scrap for running into the ground. The 10 that are still serving Mattapan seven decades strong were from the grouping of cars that was properly (i.e. federally-paid-for) maintained. That's the lesson here.
 

Back
Top