General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

There's a short segment (several dozen feet) under Beacon St. a couple blocks past Kenmore where the ceiling dips down low. I think it's the Boston Edison substation and whatever heavy-duty utility lines fan out underground from that building. It's definitely before the tunnel passes under the Pike/Worcester Line, and it's been there since they constructed the tunnel in 1932.

There's been several engineering studies done on that pinch point over the last 70-something years related to heavy rail conversion and Blue Line cars on the D. Each time they concluded that increasing the vertical clearance is doable without complication. The T's just locked into this institutional custom!custom!custom! mindset for micromanaging its car manufacturers to death, so it always gets pooh-poohed as a car order planning consideration. The Kinki-Sharyo AmeriTrams can actually handle Boylston curve with maybe 2° to spare, but the low roof restriction means they'd have to customize and pack all the usual roof-mounted air conditioner and transformer units differently and stuff more equipment on the underside of the car to save a few inches of total height. That equipment stuffing on the underside is what doomed the Type 8 design. And the only real flaw the Type 7's have is that the weight distribution on the roof is uneven enough that they rock back and forth uncomfortably on the fastest parts of the D (if you've been a standee on a Riverside train going >45 MPH you know what I'm talking about). Obviously lowering the interior ceiling of the train is not an option when the ends are high-floor. Tall people ride the T, too. Ask a few members of the Celtics who live in the city.


Boylston curve they mainly need to widen for margin of error, because if you've got a snug fit you don't want operators hitting the curve at too high a speed. Even if they went to speed auto-enforcement with a cab signal system they'd want several degrees' worth of padding on the curve. But we're not talking anything dramatic. The realignment would be so slight riders wouldn't notice. They would only need to widen the bridge deck over the abandoned lower level tracks. Coming up with the room for that involves taking that sharp-edged corner of the outbound wall...cutting a 2-3 foot chunk off the end so it's trapezoidal-shaped, install replacement rebar on the cut end, and put in like one more ultra-short corner girder on the bridge deck to widen it. Since it's off to the side if they stage their scaffolding off the lower-level tracks and put up a wood barrier around the outbound tracks they can do the construction with zero disruption to service, just like the elevators at Copley and Arlington. Then they'd spend one Saturday overnight with the tamping machine to lift up the tracks and reset/reshape them a few inches apart, then power down the overhead and move a couple mounting brackets a few inches. Open up for service the next morning. That's it...nothing even gets disconnected/reconnected for the track realignment itself the way those tamper machines work (see the "T After Dark" film where they're using one of those on the Orange Line). And there's no historical preservation considerations with that wall. After the 1996 flood they punched a hole in it about 10 feet outbound from the curve to install a new tunnel pump room.


It's very silly that they won't consider this. At the very least the floor shaving since that forces more car customization than Boylston curve and eliminates more generic trolley makes from purchase consideration. They can fix that one by terminating the C and D inbound at Fenway and St. Mary's and running a shuttle bus between them and Kenmore for a week. Pick a school vacation or week with a long weekend where the traffic levels are among the lightest of the year and git-'r-done. It's not major construction for the literal inches worth of floor lowering we're talking here. There are railroad tunnels under ongoing renovation nationwide (incl. prelim engineering on the 140-year-old Hoosac Tunnel bored straight through the Berkshire Mountains bedrock) where they're doing this for double-stack freight car clearances. A few feet of 1932-construction trolley tunnel on a terra firma hill outside of the Back Bay landfill zone is trivial work.

F-Line -- Another great disertation on the T's history and how it influences the current situation -- not just here but around the world

By the way -- in that context - -I call this thread's readers to the following IEEE Engineering Milestone from the IEEE Global History Center
http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Milestones:Power_System_of_Boston's_Rapid_Transit,_1889

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IEEE Boston Section,
Dedication: 10 November 2004

Boston was the first city to build electric traction for a large-scale rapid transit system. The engineering challenge to design and construct safe, economically viable, and reliable electric power for Boston's rapid transit was met by the West End Street Railway Company, beginning in 1889. The company's pioneering efforts provided an important impetus to the adoption of mass transit systems nationwide.... The West End Street Railway Company was organized 12 November 1887, with Henry M. Whitney as president ... [to be a] short electric railway line to real estate located in Brookline... before any construction had started, a number of horse drawn streetcar companies were consolidated in to one large enterprise, called the West End Street Railway. By the time consolidation was completed in 1888, the West End had over 7800 horses and 1480 cars. Business was great and continued to grow and prosper. One year later there were as many as 9000 horses dragging over 2000 cars all over Boston and adjoining towns.....In February 1889, he signed a contract for 20 electric cars that would operate between downtown Boston and Harvard Square in Cambridge. Initial testing between Sprague and Thomson-Houston systems lasted six months...1 June 1889... Thomson Houston received contracts for 600 motors and other equipment. ....

The West End had to design their own cars and trucks, much longer and stronger than anything commercially available. Cars were designed with two swivel trucks for sharp turns in Boston's narrow streets. For a while during the 1890's, the 20 foot car was adopted as standard to carry more passengers.... System development proceeded on all fronts at a grueling pace. The first cars were actually made in their own shops. Horse cars were cut in two then spliced together to make a longer motorized car. A temporary power plant was quickly erected using standard power plant equipment to start up the business.....

Two major electric journals had this to say:

"The West End Street Railway company of Boston is making rapid progress in the equipment of its line with the Thomson-Houston system and work this winter .The permanent power plant will be a model of its kind, and when completed the largest and best equipped in the world.

Horse cars will some be taken off the Cambridge Division, and residents in Cambridge will be given the full benefit of rapid transit, and before long the electric car will be a familiar sight in the heart of the city." ....

Electrical engineers all across the country were aware of what was going on in Boston, including AlEE members. The AlEE Handbook of 1900 reported that the 1890 General Meeting held in Boston included a tour of the West End 's facilities. The Secretary at that time wrote:

"This was the most extensive system of electric railway work then proposed and every facility being granted for its thorough inspection, the occasion proved one of great interests."

Surprisingly, the project progressed very rapidly, without hesitation or false starts. Each company line was rebuilt, electrified, then placed into service. The last horse was finally retired sometime in 1897....

Built from 1889 to 1891, the Central Power Station (CPS)... to provide direct current electricity for the growing streetcar system in Boston. Located in downtown Boston, on Harrison Avenue and Albany Street, CPS was the largest electrical power station in the world at that time. With CPS as its flagship, the West End was able to launch the largest commercial electrical traction system in the world. CPS went on line in 1891.

Located at the center of the city, CPS was designed to be permanent and good looking. An extra high chimney was necessary to carry away smoke and fumes that would be visible at all times during the day. At the time it was built, the 250 foot high stack was the tallest structure in Boston , taller than the Bunker Hill monument. It was fifty feet taller than the new chimney being erected by the Edison electric light company just a block away....

The completed system covered an area of about 100 square miles, and served a population of over 1,000,000 residents. The cost to ride the “T” was 5 cents, and allowed free transfers to different lines. There were more than 170 passenger cars, powered by 8 power stations, utilizing direct current, which covered nearly 500 miles of railway track

NOTE -- the time table:
Company organized: 12 November 1887
CPS went on line December 24, 1891
The last horse was finally retired sometime in 1897

Note further this was a private company introducing a new technology on a massive scale -- now imagine it being undertaken today by a government agency such as the T
 
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I know this is wildly off topic but does anyone know when Avenue de Lafayette was renamed in French convention? I assume it was named for the Revolutionary War's French general Lafayette; has it been called "Avenue de.." since then?

The name of this street and Avenue Louis Pasteur, by Boston Latin, have always fascinated me.

The name is fairly new. I think that the original backer of Lafayette Mall was a French company.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

From a 1983 BRA report - 'Downtown Crossing - an Economic Strategy Plan.
Easing vehicular circulation around Lafayette Place will be a new
boulevard connecting Essex and Washington Streets. This new boulevard,
called "Avenue de Lafayette", runs along the southern edge of
Lafayette Place, providing direct, clear access to Lafayette Place
Garage and the retail core from the Central Artery.

I think the developer was Mondev International Ltd from Canada.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The name is fairly new. I think that the original backer of Lafayette Mall was a French company.

Yes and No -- the original connection is to the French Rev. War General Marquise de Lafayette who laid the cornerstone for the Bunker Hill Monument in 1825

However, the recent connection of the name was the Swiss^otel -- now the Hyatt Regency Boston -- built as part of Lafayette Place in the 1975 to 1980 time frame

Sefrius a US subsidiary of the Paris-based developer Sefri built Lafayette Place in collaboration with Allied Stores (parent of then Jordan Marsh) with further contributions by City of Boston (old streets and 3 mechanical parking garages, construction of New Essex St.), the T (Concourse connections between Filenes and Jordans, connections between Park St. and Washington St. Green to Orange Platforms) and Boston Edison which had a major substation in the area.

Anyway the City disestablished a number of streets including Exeter Place where the euphonius (???) "Mr Watson come here I want you" was spoken. The City then constructed a new major street called in planning documents "New Essex St." -- this was renamed ave. de Lafayette in honor of Sefrius' contribution

By the way -- the project as planned included a much bigger, garage, European style cafes and many shops opening directly to Washington St., a 2nd department store on the southern end, gerbil tubes, convention center -- a "mini" Pru with a total of 2.5 M Sq. ft. on 12 acres for $250 M (1975 dollars)

It's all detailed in a 1975 document
http://archive.org/download/jordanmarshlafay00bost/jordanmarshlafay00bost.pdf

When you read the rhetoric the pedestrian environment was a priority, it was going to rejuvenate and restore the DTX as the shopping location. However, something happened?? along the way to te finish line -- and the result was the failed Lafayette Place -- now resurected as Lafayette Corporate Center.

With Haywayd and Kensington comming on this side of DTX will be totally different yet again in about 5 years. By then the Filenes end and possibly the fomer Wolworths should be changing radically yet again.

The real question:
Will someone with influence and foresight (just like the person who 35 years ago was responsible for including the Park to Washington pedestrian tunnel as part of the Lafayette Place) finally realize that DTX is incomplete without a pedestrian connection along Washingon St. to State St. -- and that the whole district could be maximized by connecting further along Washington to Chinatown.

Such a unified T complex of Park, DTX, Chinatown, State can allow pedestrian connections from Tremont & Park to Washington to Essex and Red to Organge, Green and Blue without having to get on and off vehicles.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Thanks for the info, all. I guess it begs the question -- what was Lafayette Place named for (the general?)

Also, was Avenue Louis Pasteur always named as such or does that have recent origins as well?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Thanks for the info, all. I guess it begs the question -- what was Lafayette Place named for (the general?)

Also, was Avenue Louis Pasteur always named as such or does that have recent origins as well?

CZ -- " "the original connection is to the French Rev. War General Marquise de Lafayette who laid the cornerstone for the Bunker Hill Monument in 1825" -- interesting the "virtual cornerstone" for Lafayette Place was laid in 1975 -- 200th anniversary of Battle of Bunker Hill and 150the anniversary of Lafayette laying the cornerstone for the Bunker Hill Monument

As to Ave Louis Pasteur -- more recent than Lafayette less recent than Ave. de Lafayette

Laid out on January 17, 1907, shortly after Harvard opened its new medical school campus, the beautiful Avenue Louis Pasteur in Boston runs from Longwood Avenue to the Fenway, east of Brookline Avenue. During lengthy community discussions, Charles William Eliot, Harvard’s president from 1869 to 1909, emerged as one of the most ardent advocates of naming the new avenue for Louis Pasteur. President Eliot said: “Pasteur is the name of a man who, more than anyone else, did the most for medicine in the nineteenth century. Of humble beginnings, Pasteur became a worldwide force in medical science.... It seems that giving the boulevard his name would best indicate this to future generations. I am in favor of this name for sentimental reasons. Americans have a debt of gratitude to France, and here we have the opportunity to show that we remember what France did for us during the Revolution – not only its king but also its citizens.... I think we will find no more appropriate name; Louis Pasteur’s name will teach the children of future generations that which we wish them to know.”

Date: 1907

http://www.pasteurfoundation.org/MAHarvardAvePasteur.shtml
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Sorry. Off topic excursion over. Back to regularly scheduled bitching about the T.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Sorry. Off topic excursion over. Back to regularly scheduled bitching about the T.

Now that we are off the topic -- How did we ever end up with King James Street adjacent to the John Hancock Building?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

*Facepalm*
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Ron Newman says there used to be a tunnel all the way from Park Street to South Station.

Anyone have the deets?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

It was lost when they built the original central artery tunnel. I've always wondered if the south station platform extends far enough under the artery tunnel so that it could be connected by stairs to the part of the concourse that is currently a store room or wool room.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Ron Newman says there used to be a tunnel all the way from Park Street to South Station.

Anyone have the deets?

No...never went 100% of the way to SS where it connected to anything. It was an extension of the DTX lobby/Winter St. Concourse tunnel that was never finished. Central Artery smashed through the empty shell near Dewey Sq., and there's some MBTA offices filling up the space between the end of the DTX concourse and where it was cut.

Because of the direct grade crossing of the Orange Line there was never anything they could use it for. Even in those days they were not going operator-driven trolley and operator-driven heavy rail cross paths. So it was more a..."Well, this new line's gotta go deep to fit under the other two so let's just put a second level on it at-grade in case we think of something different in 30 years." And all they could think of was the DTX lobby...and eventually, in 1979, the Winter St. Concourse. But transit line...never considered, not even at napkin-sketch level.


Why build one when you can build 2 at twice the price??? (*shrug*)
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

There's a peep hole at the east end of the Summer St concourse. It's nothing but a crappy hallway filled with mops and vents and stuff. But I wish they'd extend the lobby down to Dewey Sq.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

There's a peep hole at the east end of the Summer St concourse. It's nothing but a crappy hallway filled with mops and vents and stuff. But I wish they'd extend the lobby down to Dewey Sq.

Urb -- Why -- that's why we have the Red Line -- Park St. to Dewey Sq. in 2 minutes (+ waiting time for the train)

No the real missing links in order of both utility and feasibilty of implementation:
1) Orange Line DTX along Washington St. to Orange Line State with connections to all the new construction -- thus facilitating direct transfer from:
a) Green to Red -- Park by stairs
b) Red to Orange -- DTX by stairs
c) Blue to Orange -- State by stairs
d) Green to Orange -- Park to DTX by tunnel
e) Red to Blue -- Red to Orange by stairs then DTX to State by Tunnel then stairs to Blue

I wonder how far the tunnel has to go -- from my experience riding the Orange Line the offset platforms nearly overlap

2) Orange Line DTX to Orange Line Chinatown along Washington St. with connections to all the new construction

3) Red to Blue by stairs at Charles

4) Orange State to Green Line Govt Center -- enabling all 4 of the key stations downtown to interlink to add redundancy to the system
 
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Urb -- Why -- that's why we have the Red Line -- Park St. to Dewey Sq. in 2 minutes (+ waiting time for the train)

No the real missing links in order of both utility and feasibilty of implementation:
1) Orange Line DTX along Washington St. to Orange Line State with connections to all the new construction -- thus facilitating direct transfer from:
a) Green to Red -- Park by stairs
b) Red to Orange -- DTX by stairs
c) Blue to Orange -- State by stairs
d) Green to Orange -- Park to DTX by tunnel
e) Red to Blue -- Red to Orange by stairs then DTX to State by Tunnel then stairs to Blue

I wonder how far the tunnel has to go -- from my experience riding the Orange Line the offset platforms nearly overlap

2) Orange Line DTX to Orange Line Chinatown along Washington St. with connections to all the new construction

3) Red to Blue by stairs at Charles

4) Orange State to Green Line Govt Center -- enabling all 4 of the key stations downtown to interlink to add redundancy to the system

I do think DTX - State takes overall priority for a relatively simply Red-Blue connection, but how the hell does an Orange Line Connection to itself between DTX and Chinatown take priority over extending the DTX concourse into the financial district with more entrances?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I cringed when I got the notice from my employer that they've automatically registered the increase in price for July. Cue the exact same shenanigans in approximately 3-4 years' time with absolutely no plans whatsoever to expand the system beyond the supposed GLX.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I was expecting it to happen again next year. After all they still have not addressed the fundamental issues, and there's going to be similar size hole in the budget again...
 

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