General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

But if the T did get sleek new designs, fiscal conservatives/libertarians/laissez-faire capitalists would complain about it wasting money.

Of course, they currently complain that the current, clunky old designs prove that government can't do anything better than private industry, so it's a lose-lose.

No we (I) don't/wouldn't. I'll just complain about how car-based subsidizing and sprawl-inducing regulations led to the necessity of putting urban rail on life support. But then Herald commenters claim I'm not really for free markets, because clearly "the Eisenhower Interstate System was free market." (legit Herald quote)
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Privatize the highways and all the people claiming that roads are subsidizing public transit would realize how subsidized highways have been for the past 50 years. Of course avoiding creating monopolies would be important to avoid Nstar style problems. The true cost of parking and driving is so out of whack with that the market and maintenance costs it isn't even funny. For all the rightful complaints about public transit being an inefficiently bloated employment and benefit scheme, the complainants forget the same garbage is going on with every single public road in the the country.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I thought the really strict safety standards only affected lines with mixed freight/passenger operations because the FRA hates the idea of mixing the two? Wouldn't surprise me that there is some archaic legislation affecting rapid transit as well, though.

Too bad, too, because some nice, sleek, modern designs would certainly do a lot for the T's public image.

Yeah, FRA-governed railroads are the ones where everything has to be built to haul freight train tonnage regardless of whether the Euros have HSR train crumple zones every bit as good as ours. Rapid transit, being isolated systems, don't come under those draconian rules and are ruled by the NTSB (same way they have safety oversight over road/air/water transit). Most metro systems worldwide aren't a hell of a lot different in application than their U.S. counterparts, other than level of investment and frills. And same goes for LRT systems.

But a lot of that has to do with the tech--except for things like driverless trams--being based off just a couple common designs. NYC Subway, MBTA Orange/Red, London Underground, Paris Metro, U-Bahn...they were all first opened in pretty much the same dozen-year span, and so just about all metro systems worldwide and all expansions of those original systems were derivative of the perfected equipment that came out of that initial batch. If you've ridden the Red Line, you've ridden the reference design for most metro cars in the world.

Same for light rail with the PCC. Because that reference design came out in the Depression, Euro systems copied it too to save expense rather than opt for a ground-up German or Russian competing build. All the remaining tram systems that got refurbished after the war got PCC-derivative fleets. And likewise all the modern tram models that proliferated after had direct PCC lineage. Now, with the manufacturers all multi-national, the tech cross-pollination has been complete enough that everything U.S. and abroad is pretty much the same. In some cases literally the same cars. Those sexy Bombardier Flexity trams in Berlin run in Minneapolis, too, and are being built for Toronto's new streetcar order. Berlin's are the 100% low-floor versions, Minny's are the 70% low-floor/30% high-floor version, and Toronto's new ones are the narrow-dimension variant for legacy street-running lines that have tight turning loops.

Berlin (circa-2009 make):
799px-Flexitityberlin.jpg


MPLS (circa-2003 make):
800px-Hiawatha_Line-Government_Plaza.jpg


Brussels car on loan to Vancouver for 2010 Olympics (mid-2000's make of the pending Toronto order):
800px-Olympic_Line_streetcar.jpg



It's the same exact car in 3 different dimension/seating configurations, spread over about 8 years of manufacturing. All of the Flexity's have their lineage in the Canadian Light Rail Vehicle purchased by Toronto in '77. The T got some loaner CLRV's in 1980 that it evaluated in revenue service for a few months before opting against its own purchase and pursuing the Type 7's instead:

Fantrip of historic Type 5 5734, PCC 3295, a loaner CLRV with T rollsign, and Boeing 3527 on the B Line and Lechmere loop:
bvb045.jpg
bvb019.jpg


So, yes, the Brussels Flexity's can run unmodified on the Green Line being based off the CLRV...and Toronto's new ones only need the trolley pole swapped for a pantograph because we no longer have dual pole/panto overhead like there was in the 1980's. Variant of the MPLS Flexity's could probably run here if the short section of low-clearance roof on the C/D portal tunnel was mitigated by shaving down the trackbed a couple feet and Boylston curve was widened within margin of error with that outbound-side corner wall shaved. Berlin's are probably too big...Central Subway definitely doesn't have the turning radii and dimensions to do the 100% low-floor everything-but-kitchen-sink model. The only major modification they'd need here on the reference specs are the door and left-side seating configurations. We've got those center platforms most other streetcar and tram systems don't have, which throws complications into the seating arrangements (note on that CLRV shot at Lechmere that the Toronto car's got no left doors. The loaner Toronto CLRV's couldn't run in revenue service on the C/D (Kenmore) or past Gov't Ctr. (Haymarket). If the T bought them theirs would obviously have lefties.


The other big worldwide tram manufacturers all have competing modular designs to the Flexity that can be rigged up in different sizes and configurations using the same base design. Kinki-Sharyo's of course got its AmeriTram, which has a direct Type 7 lineage, aimed at the U.S. market (similar to their foreign makes, but aimed at satisfying "Buy American" requirements by coming with purchase guarantee that all units will be manufactured in the U.S.). Alstom's got its Citadis lineup that's used in over 28 different cities in Europe, Asia, South America, Africa, and Oceana.

Everybody detect some wave-of-the-future undercurrent here in the standardization and modularity? And some infuriatingly outdated thinking about the T's preference for unique-as-snowflake customization that's preventing us from having the nice things at decent price point? Yeah. Thankfully the Type 9 order is going to be pushed back a few years because of GLX's delays. They already amended the buy-low requirement on the order specs for an override on proven designs to avoid another Breda disaster. Now we've got to see when they pick up the bidding in another 5 years if attitudes are going to evolve enough for an amendment to generic specs whenever possible. I don't have a lot of hope they're going to have that eureka moment where somebody in power says, "Hey...wouldn't it save us money over the long haul to just drop $25M to lower that Beacon tunnel trackbed and shave that Boylston wall?" But maybe we can get a minimally customized Flexity or AmeriTram out of it if the thinking evolves a little with overdue agency reform.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I know the deal at Boylston, but remind me of the Beacon tunnel problem? Low overhead clearance going west out of Kenmore?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I know the deal at Boylston, but remind me of the Beacon tunnel problem? Low overhead clearance going west out of Kenmore?

There's a short segment (several dozen feet) under Beacon St. a couple blocks past Kenmore where the ceiling dips down low. I think it's the Boston Edison substation and whatever heavy-duty utility lines fan out underground from that building. It's definitely before the tunnel passes under the Pike/Worcester Line, and it's been there since they constructed the tunnel in 1932.

There's been several engineering studies done on that pinch point over the last 70-something years related to heavy rail conversion and Blue Line cars on the D. Each time they concluded that increasing the vertical clearance is doable without complication. The T's just locked into this institutional custom!custom!custom! mindset for micromanaging its car manufacturers to death, so it always gets pooh-poohed as a car order planning consideration. The Kinki-Sharyo AmeriTrams can actually handle Boylston curve with maybe 2° to spare, but the low roof restriction means they'd have to customize and pack all the usual roof-mounted air conditioner and transformer units differently and stuff more equipment on the underside of the car to save a few inches of total height. That equipment stuffing on the underside is what doomed the Type 8 design. And the only real flaw the Type 7's have is that the weight distribution on the roof is uneven enough that they rock back and forth uncomfortably on the fastest parts of the D (if you've been a standee on a Riverside train going >45 MPH you know what I'm talking about). Obviously lowering the interior ceiling of the train is not an option when the ends are high-floor. Tall people ride the T, too. Ask a few members of the Celtics who live in the city.


Boylston curve they mainly need to widen for margin of error, because if you've got a snug fit you don't want operators hitting the curve at too high a speed. Even if they went to speed auto-enforcement with a cab signal system they'd want several degrees' worth of padding on the curve. But we're not talking anything dramatic. The realignment would be so slight riders wouldn't notice. They would only need to widen the bridge deck over the abandoned lower level tracks. Coming up with the room for that involves taking that sharp-edged corner of the outbound wall...cutting a 2-3 foot chunk off the end so it's trapezoidal-shaped, install replacement rebar on the cut end, and put in like one more ultra-short corner girder on the bridge deck to widen it. Since it's off to the side if they stage their scaffolding off the lower-level tracks and put up a wood barrier around the outbound tracks they can do the construction with zero disruption to service, just like the elevators at Copley and Arlington. Then they'd spend one Saturday overnight with the tamping machine to lift up the tracks and reset/reshape them a few inches apart, then power down the overhead and move a couple mounting brackets a few inches. Open up for service the next morning. That's it...nothing even gets disconnected/reconnected for the track realignment itself the way those tamper machines work (see the "T After Dark" film where they're using one of those on the Orange Line). And there's no historical preservation considerations with that wall. After the 1996 flood they punched a hole in it about 10 feet outbound from the curve to install a new tunnel pump room.


It's very silly that they won't consider this. At the very least the floor shaving since that forces more car customization than Boylston curve and eliminates more generic trolley makes from purchase consideration. They can fix that one by terminating the C and D inbound at Fenway and St. Mary's and running a shuttle bus between them and Kenmore for a week. Pick a school vacation or week with a long weekend where the traffic levels are among the lightest of the year and git-'r-done. It's not major construction for the literal inches worth of floor lowering we're talking here. There are railroad tunnels under ongoing renovation nationwide (incl. prelim engineering on the 140-year-old Hoosac Tunnel bored straight through the Berkshire Mountains bedrock) where they're doing this for double-stack freight car clearances. A few feet of 1932-construction trolley tunnel on a terra firma hill outside of the Back Bay landfill zone is trivial work.
 
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Everybody detect some wave-of-the-future undercurrent here in the standardization and modularity? And some infuriatingly outdated thinking about the T's preference for unique-as-snowflake customization that's preventing us from having the nice things at decent price point? Yeah. Thankfully the Type 9 order is going to be pushed back a few years because of GLX's delays. They already amended the buy-low requirement on the order specs for an override on proven designs to avoid another Breda disaster. Now we've got to see when they pick up the bidding in another 5 years if attitudes are going to evolve enough for an amendment to generic specs whenever possible. I don't have a lot of hope they're going to have that eureka moment where somebody in power says, "Hey...wouldn't it save us money over the long haul to just drop $25M to lower that Beacon tunnel trackbed and shave that Boylston wall?" But maybe we can get a minimally customized Flexity or AmeriTram out of it if the thinking evolves a little with overdue agency reform.

If only! It is absurd to think they've wasted so much money on a junk product (the 8s) when other models are readily available with some structural changes to the actual track/tunnels.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

...and woah woah woah....the new Kenmore has bathrooms available to the public!?!?

....wait a second, are those token booths I see....?

MBTA WTF!
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Why don't they add this to the regular Google Maps, for your computer browser? I want to seeeee!
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

As neat as this is, we still can't get those electronic signs to display when the next trains will arrive? Really?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Why don't they add this to the regular Google Maps, for your computer browser? I want to seeeee!

Enjoy remembering what old Kenmore used to look like.

kenmore.jpg


Is that unisex bathroom on the left still part of the station design?



Downtown crossing is so big. Its what every transit station should be

SC20120516-003417.png
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

MBTA is the first transit system to have maps of the stations in google maps.

In the US at least. Japan has had maps of its stations on Google Maps for, well, a long time. These only show locations/names of exits and fare gate areas, but many stations have dozens or even hundreds (Shinjuku!) of exits, so it's essential information.

But yes, adding icons for bathrooms, stairs, escalators is definitely new.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

honestly, why isn't park street and DownTown Crossing considered one station? From that google map it is quite obvious how close the platforms are and the connection between them. I have walked much farther underground in NYC in a single "station"
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

honestly, why isn't park street and DownTown Crossing considered one station? From that google map it is quite obvious how close the platforms are and the connection between them. I have walked much farther underground in NYC in a single "station"

History.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I know this is wildly off topic but does anyone know when Avenue de Lafayette was renamed in French convention? I assume it was named for the Revolutionary War's French general Lafayette; has it been called "Avenue de.." since then?

The name of this street and Avenue Louis Pasteur, by Boston Latin, have always fascinated me.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I don't remember what Avenue de Lafayette used to be called, but it's not a very old name. The street was renamed as a result of Lafayette Place development in the early 1980s.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

honestly, why isn't park street and DownTown Crossing considered one station? From that google map it is quite obvious how close the platforms are and the connection between them. I have walked much farther underground in NYC in a single "station"

In many ways it functions like a super station, but the one element besides history that presents a reason to consider it as two, is the presence of two Red Line stops. And while I can't imagine transferring from Orange to Red to Green rather than simply walking from Orange to Green, the fact that it's possible is why it still has to be considered two stations.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The underground pedestrian walkway between Park Street and Downtown Crossing stations, though built decades earlier, didn't open to public use until the late 1970s.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

They really should turn Winter st into a roofed off mall and open up the walkway to the sky.
 

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