Gov't Center Station Rebuild

djimpact1 said:
Not trying to be a back-end moderator, but GOVERNMENT CENTER rebuild info in this thread please...ADA compliance is a whole different topic.
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Why do you think that the station is being rebuilt?

Hello! I think that you got your wires crossed.

To modernize it, bring it up to date, and make it ADA accessible for those with limited mobility. Don't you get it? :rolleyes:
 
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You had no problem with NYC accessibility but you think the MBTA is slow?

That's really weird. NYC is waaaay behind the MBTA when it comes to accessibility. Maybe you stuck to only a few stations. Now to be fair, NYCT is also a much, much larger system. The problem is an order of magnitude larger. But on the other hand, they're supposed to scale up their efforts too. It's a much larger city.

Most NYC subway stations are available only through some steep old staircase from the early 20th century. It's really awful for elderly riders, not to mention disabled. The only slightly saving grace is that most of the tunnels are near the street level, unlike DC. WMATA seems to have the worst elevator maintenance crew in history, it's true.

NYCT is also running a lot of older high-floor buses in their fleet still, which causes its own set of problems.
 
Matthew said:
You had no problem with NYC accessibility but you think the MBTA is slow?

That's really weird. NYC is waaaay behind the MBTA when it comes to accessibility. Maybe you stuck to only a few stations. Now to be fair, NYCT is also a much, much larger system. The problem is an order of magnitude larger. But on the other hand, they're supposed to scale up their efforts too. It's a much larger city.

Most NYC subway stations are available only through some steep old staircase from the early 20th century. It's really awful for elderly riders, not to mention disabled. The only slightly saving grace is that most of the tunnels are near the street level, unlike DC. WMATA seems to have the worst elevator maintenance crew in history, it's true.

NYCT is also running a lot of older high-floor buses in their fleet still, which causes its own set of problems.
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There IS a difference;

Theirs is the largest & busiest in the country.

Ours is the oldest in the country.

I never said that theirs is great. I've only rode it a few times, and each of those times was when I visited Ground Zero several months after the terror attacks.

You might wonder why Gov't Center Station became so obsolete. Well, it was obsolete to begin with, and this goes all the way back to the days when it was named Scolley Square. No doubt, NYC's system is obsolete as well.

We still have some high-floor buses left, as well as the Type 7 trolleys, which are all high-floor cars.


DC's escalator & elevator problems came from long-time neglect & poor maintenance. While they are spending astronomically untold amounts of dough
to upgrade and glorify the tracks, easy access to the stations went south and the problem has mounted to the point where even myself, an out-of-towner, was fuming. :eek:
 
Jahvon09 said:
There IS a difference;

Theirs is the largest & busiest in the country.

Ours is the oldest in the country.

I never said that theirs is great. I've only rode it a few times, and each of those times was when I visited Ground Zero several months after the terror attacks.

You might wonder why Gov't Center Station became so obsolete. Well, it was obsolete to begin with, and this goes all the way back to the days when it was named Scolley Square. No doubt, NYC's system is obsolete as well.

We still have some high-floor buses left, as well as the Type 7 trolleys, which are all high-floor cars.


DC's escalator & elevator problems came from long-time neglect & poor maintenance. While they are spending astronomically untold amounts of dough
to upgrade and glorify the tracks, easy access to the stations went south and the problem has mounted to the point where even myself, an out-of-towner, was fuming. :eek:
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Type 7's do not run unless there's a low-floor Type 8 attached to the train for complete accessibility on every train. There have been no inaccessible trains running anywhere on the system since the full Type 8 order went into service and they instituted that rule.

All remaining high-floor buses have been retrofitted with wheelchair lifts. There's only 100 high-floors period left in revenue service out of 1000 revenue buses, and that number gets chopped in half next year when the latest order of 60 brand-new low-floors gets delivered. They're less than 3 years away from purging the last of the high-floors w/lifts and being a totally low-floor bus operator.



I understand this is an issue you're personally impacted by, but your anecdotal evidence isn't adding up here.

-- Only 20% of NYC Subway's 500 stations are wheelchair-accessible, and despite the MTA's own efforts to close that gap they're only set to achieve slightly less than 25% compliance by end of this decade.

-- T rapid transit is sitting at 74% today (cumulatively, including B/C/D/E surface stops and Mattapan), and will be over 75% when GC and Wollaston are both finished in the next 18 months.

-- The T has more total wheelchair-accessible rapid transit stations than the 3½ times larger MTA. That's impressive.

-- The T raised its rapid transit compliance rate from under 40% to three-quarters in only a dozen years.

-- Even with the very poor compliance on the Worcester, Haverhill/Reading, Fitchburg, and Franklin Lines the commuter rail is sitting at 76% accessibility with Sharon and South Acton joining the ranks of accessible stations.

-- Long Island Rail Road, the highest-ridership commuter rail system in North America, has only 19% station accessibility despite being a 100% level-boarding operation. Metro North east-of-Hudson is considerably better at 79%...not much different from the T (Waterbury Branch really drags down MNRR's overall numbers).

-- T ferries are 100%.

-- T bus fleets are 100%.

-- Getting close to 100% on tactile platform strips for the blind.

-- Onboard ASA now universal on Blue, Green, and all buses. To be universal on Red and Orange with the next vehicle purchase. Commuter rail ASA debuted with the new bi-level cars and will expand when the Kawasaki bi-levels return from their ongoing rebuild program. The 27 remaining single-level rear cab cars may get the ASA computers installed, and all blind coaches can take the audio announcements...only needing relatively inexpensive LED installations for full visual compliance.

-- Station ASA now nearly universal at nearly all Red/Blue/Orange stations, all Mattapan stations, and most commuter rail stations. Green's next.

-- Huge progress on elevator/escalator uptime since former GM Dan Grabauskas made that one of his causes during his term. As of this morning 10/11/2014 there are only 2 escalators on the whole system down for maintenance (Beachmont and Porter-Mass Ave. lobby), no elevators down, and 3 stations scheduled for one-day elevator maint shutdowns on different days this upcoming week. They need to keep foot on the gas so deferred maintenance doesn't pop back up, but this is a complete turnaround from what was maybe the #1 accessibility annoyance dogging the system day-in/day-out as little as 5 years ago.




Could it be better? Sure...they have to keep plugging away in a very tough funding environment and trade a decade's worth of fewer--but harder--subway station retrofits for a decade of easier--but much higher quantity--surface Green Line and commuter rail retrofits to finish the job. As well as follow through on the Key Bus Route Improvements initiative to get the bus stops at the highest-ridership routes at peak accessibility.

But the numbers don't lie...they are 100% on their vehicles and on the home stretch for rail stations while other legacy systems have barely begun. And they've responded with action to past criticism such as their once-horrid elevator/escalator uptime. I don't see what there is to get up in arms about. Among transit systems pre-dating the ADA (much less one that predates the ADA by nearly a century) the T has got superb accessibility and has come further in a shorter amount of time at achieving accessibility than anyone else.
 
That's a great perspective, F-Line. The question then becomes whether the T has made the right decision by going full-bore on accessibility and leaving non-ADA-rooted station issues and other maintenance tasks on a lower priority. It's a horrible sort of calculus - do you make the decision to make the system usable versus unusable for a small number of people, or make it slightly better for the masses.

The T's claim of no-Type-7-only-trains is a pathetically thin lie, though. Almost every day I see single 7s on Comm Ave.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Type 7's do not run unless there's a low-floor Type 8 attached to the train for complete accessibility on every train. There have been no inaccessible trains running anywhere on the system since the full Type 8 order went into service and they instituted that rule.

All remaining high-floor buses have been retrofitted with wheelchair lifts. There's only 100 high-floors period left in revenue service out of 1000 revenue buses, and that number gets chopped in half next year when the latest order of 60 brand-new low-floors gets delivered. They're less than 3 years away from purging the last of the high-floors w/lifts and being a totally low-floor bus operator.



I understand this is an issue you're personally impacted by, but your anecdotal evidence isn't adding up here.

-- Only 20% of NYC Subway's 500 stations are wheelchair-accessible, and despite the MTA's own efforts to close that gap they're only set to achieve slightly less than 25% compliance by end of this decade.

-- T rapid transit is sitting at 74% today (cumulatively, including B/C/D/E surface stops and Mattapan), and will be over 75% when GC and Wollaston are both finished in the next 18 months.

-- The T has more total wheelchair-accessible rapid transit stations than the 3½ times larger MTA. That's impressive.

-- The T raised its rapid transit compliance rate from under 40% to three-quarters in only a dozen years.

-- Even with the very poor compliance on the Worcester, Haverhill/Reading, Fitchburg, and Franklin Lines the commuter rail is sitting at 76% accessibility with Sharon and South Acton joining the ranks of accessible stations.

-- Long Island Rail Road, the highest-ridership commuter rail system in North America, has only 19% station accessibility despite being a 100% level-boarding operation. Metro North east-of-Hudson is considerably better at 79%...not much different from the T (Waterbury Branch really drags down MNRR's overall numbers).

-- T ferries are 100%.

-- T bus fleets are 100%.

-- Getting close to 100% on tactile platform strips for the blind.

-- Onboard ASA now universal on Blue, Green, and all buses. To be universal on Red and Orange with the next vehicle purchase. Commuter rail ASA debuted with the new bi-level cars and will expand when the Kawasaki bi-levels return from their ongoing rebuild program. The 27 remaining single-level rear cab cars may get the ASA computers installed, and all blind coaches can take the audio announcements...only needing relatively inexpensive LED installations for full visual compliance.

-- Station ASA now nearly universal at nearly all Red/Blue/Orange stations, all Mattapan stations, and most commuter rail stations. Green's next.

-- Huge progress on elevator/escalator uptime since former GM Dan Grabauskas made that one of his causes during his term. As of this morning 10/11/2014 there are only 2 escalators on the whole system down for maintenance (Beachmont and Porter-Mass Ave. lobby), no elevators down, and 3 stations scheduled for one-day elevator maint shutdowns on different days this upcoming week. They need to keep foot on the gas so deferred maintenance doesn't pop back up, but this is a complete turnaround from what was maybe the #1 accessibility annoyance dogging the system day-in/day-out as little as 5 years ago.




Could it be better? Sure...they have to keep plugging away in a very tough funding environment and trade a decade's worth of fewer--but harder--subway station retrofits for a decade of easier--but much higher quantity--surface Green Line and commuter rail retrofits to finish the job. As well as follow through on the Key Bus Route Improvements initiative to get the bus stops at the highest-ridership routes at peak accessibility.

But the numbers don't lie...they are 100% on their vehicles and on the home stretch for rail stations while other legacy systems have barely begun. And they've responded with action to past criticism such as their once-horrid elevator/escalator uptime. I don't see what there is to get up in arms about. Among transit systems pre-dating the ADA (much less one that predates the ADA by nearly a century) the T has got superb accessibility and has come further in a shorter amount of time at achieving accessibility than anyone else.
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Anecdotal evidence?

Incorrect. I call things as I see them.

I never once said that Type 7s are not used with a Type 8 coupled behind or in front of it. I've been riding the T long enough to see that for myself.

I was not in New York long enough to do a day-by-day point-by-point assessment on how things are run there, what stations are ADA certified, the types of buses or rail cars that they have, and so on.

I'm just saying that things are being brought up to date, but still, there is always more room for improvement. :rolleyes:
 
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Jahvon09 said:
Anecdotal evidence? I call things as I see them.
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Anecdotal evidence = Calling things as [somebody] saw them
Jahvon09 said:
I'm just saying that things are being brought up to date, but still, there is always more room for improvement. :rolleyes:
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There is, indeed, always room for improvement, but there is never budget for all that there's room for. We all have pet peeves, pet projects, and stations close to our hearts (usually the ones close to home, work, or our #1 leisure destination).

From a public-forum standpoint and a public-policy standpoint, the key is to be able to step outside one's own experiences and use statistics and budget numbers (as F-Line usually does) to see how these things are balanced to deliver the most "good" to the most number of people. The point is that progressive Boston has less room for improvement than many peer systems.
 
The EGE said:
That's a great perspective, F-Line. The question then becomes whether the T has made the right decision by going full-bore on accessibility and leaving non-ADA-rooted station issues and other maintenance tasks on a lower priority. It's a horrible sort of calculus - do you make the decision to make the system usable versus unusable for a small number of people, or make it slightly better for the masses.

The T's claim of no-Type-7-only-trains is a pathetically thin lie, though. Almost every day I see single 7s on Comm Ave.
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Um, its not a choice.

There was a federal deadline. Which the MBTA missed, but at least is working on. The MTA is a billion dollar lawsuit bomb that will explode this decade.
 
Isn't it? Or at least isn't there a choice between a bunch of upfront capex in station accessability vs. extended opex for The Ride?
 
CSTH said:
Isn't it? Or at least isn't there a choice between a bunch of upfront capex in station accessability vs. extended opex for The Ride?
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When ADA was passed in 1990, it required all existing rail transit systems to develop "key station" plans. Through a public process, the MBTA developed a list of stations that were high ridership, major transfer points, served major destinations, and/or were major end terminals. ADA required all Key Stations to be made accessible by 1993 but has provisions for waivers through the year 2020. The MBTA had about 80 heavy rail, light rail, and commuter rail stations in their key station plan. Some of the stations built since 1977 (Southwest Corridor, Alewife extension, Oak Grove station, etc) were already accessible as they were built after earlier legislation that required new facilities to be accessible. Others required major work and received waivers. Government Center is the last of MBTA's key stations to be completed.

ADA also requires that non-key stations having any major alterations (such as extending a platform for six-car trains, or replacing a roof or platform with major structure problems, etc) must also be made accessible if they were not already. Any station that is still not accessible today is not in the Key Station plan approved in 1990, was built before 1977, and has not had any other major alterations since 1990. On the heavy rail and underground light rail side, Boylston, Bowdoin, Symphony, Hynes, and Wollaston fall into this combined category. Same for the longer list of surface Green Line and commuter rail stops that are not accessible.

In addition to the legal requirements of ADA, the MBTA is also bound to a consent decree it signed with the Boston Center For Independent Living in 2006:
http://mbta.com/riding_the_t/accessible_services/default.asp?id=16903
 
^ Thanks! I (...clearly...) didn't know the detail of the legal requirements.
 
winstonoboogie said:
When ADA was passed in 1990, it required all existing rail transit systems to develop "key station" plans. Through a public process, the MBTA developed a list of stations that were high ridership, major transfer points, served major destinations, and/or were major end terminals. ADA required all Key Stations to be made accessible by 1993 but has provisions for waivers through the year 2020. The MBTA had about 80 heavy rail, light rail, and commuter rail stations in their key station plan. Some of the stations built since 1977 (Southwest Corridor, Alewife extension, Oak Grove station, etc) were already accessible as they were built after earlier legislation that required new facilities to be accessible. Others required major work and received waivers. Government Center is the last of MBTA's key stations to be completed.

ADA also requires that non-key stations having any major alterations (such as extending a platform for six-car trains, or replacing a roof or platform with major structure problems, etc) must also be made accessible if they were not already. Any station that is still not accessible today is not in the Key Station plan approved in 1990, was built before 1977, and has not had any other major alterations since 1990. On the heavy rail and underground light rail side, Boylston, Bowdoin, Symphony, Hynes, and Wollaston fall into this combined category. Same for the longer list of surface Green Line and commuter rail stops that are not accessible.

In addition to the legal requirements of ADA, the MBTA is also bound to a consent decree it signed with the Boston Center For Independent Living in 2006:
http://mbta.com/riding_the_t/accessible_services/default.asp?id=16903
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There was talk of, or maybe still is, that a developer and the BRA were, or still are, working on a development project that possible real estate / office towers would be built over the Mass. Pike in the vicinity of the Hynes Station.

If that plan isn't already killed and is still in the planning stage and goes forward, then we could more than likely see major renovation & ADA access be put into the station. Because I don't think that anyone working or living there who is wheelchair confined, or the MBTA itself, would let things stay as they are with the station.

Usually, new development more than likely calls for station renovations for a station that is near and accessible to the new development.

And BTW, I'm quite surprised that Symphony does not have ADA access, seing that there are lots eladerly housing there in that vicinity (Symphony Towers & other elderly housing), along with those who have limited mobility. You'd have thought that they would have complained about that. Mass. Ave Station is up the street, but who can tell if physically disabled people would go there to catch a train? :cool:
 
Just because we seem to be committed to this accessibility topic...

...if the ADA were renamed the 'Moms, Trade Your Car for a Stroller Act' it would be a lot more popular and no less descriptive.

It certainly means that for my family, and for all of the other stroller-pushes we share elevators with every weekend.

Maybe i'm just offering a reminder that all this elevator works adds up to a a lot more than just access for people in wheelchairs (though that's no small thing)..
 
You're right, ADA access is not just for people in wheelchairs.

It is also for people who have trouble walking and need a cane to help them, or as in my case, walking up stairs.

The four stations that don't have ADA access / exiting, I try to avoid them like the plague!! :eek:
 
This headhouse looks absolutely MASSIVE when you are walking toward it on Tremont Street from the Common.

I still don't get how no one thought to at least have the roof angled slightly.
 
Massive ... as opposed to that tiny concrete monstrosity in the corner, right?
 
MBTAddict said:
This headhouse looks absolutely MASSIVE when you are walking toward it on Tremont Street from the Common.

I still don't get how no one thought to at least have the roof angled slightly.
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Look at the rafters on that last picture. They appear to have angled tops suggesting a very shallow pitch to each side of the roof.
 
MBTAddict said:
This headhouse looks absolutely MASSIVE when you are walking toward it on Tremont Street from the Common.

I still don't get how no one thought to at least have the roof angled slightly.
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Really from all angles this appears to be massive! I wonder whether it will help "enclose" City Hall Plaza - or, perhaps more likely - just look like an oversized unanchored monument scattered among the mix...
 
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