Green Line Extension to Medford & Union Sq

No, no, no, no. This is the absolute laziest of strawman arguments, and you of all people know better than to go there. A frickin' DMU on the Lowell Line would offer nowhere near the service levels required to serve the demand GLX is supposed to serve. Indigo service levels are for Winchester, Woburn, and 128...not Somerville. The DMU cop-out has already been proposed multiple times over as a way to cut-and-run from the GLX commitment, and it's been shot down every single time as a total laugher cop-out woefully inadequate to-task. There's no new angle to shine on that one; it's been proven bunk umpteen times. You know damn well that the "DMU's: The new God mode just like BRT was a God mode!" canard doesn't apply here.

GLX isn't shovel-in-ground because project management was so lax it encoraged cartoon-supervillan levels of contractor corruption. And the state was so late in realizing they'd been had that it took an 11th-hour reboot. This has jack shit to do with the viability of the proposal or the mode it uses. It's a godawful mess. But it is NOT a godawful mess because of modal warfare. That's disingenuous in the highest.

Yea that non-existent GLX is really helping service levels too.

Seriously. Stop letting perfect be the enemy of "good enough" or hell "better than nothing".

We're never going to see the GLX and at this rate we're never going to see DMU/EMU either because so much money has been wasted on GLX.

There is idiocy on both sides of the aisle.
 
The GLX is happening. Baker has scored his fiscal victories, the municipalities have stepped up, the design is streamlined, and we have a real construction manager and a proven contracting process and a Federal FFGA.

We can debate if Rt 16 is dead and whether the trauma has scared our polity from all the other rail in Decal Patrick's big gas-tax/transportation bill, but I don't think there is any useful information in asserting that GLX is not happening
 
Yea that non-existent GLX is really helping service levels too.

Seriously. Stop letting perfect be the enemy of "good enough" or hell "better than nothing".

We're never going to see the GLX and at this rate we're never going to see DMU/EMU either because so much money has been wasted on GLX.

There is idiocy on both sides of the aisle.

Nice nihilist outlook, there...
 
We're never going to see the GLX and at this rate we're never going to see DMU/EMU either because so much money has been wasted on GLX.
Either the sunk cost fallacy exists or it doesn't but this argument presumes both. Which is it?
(For what it's worth, the sunk cost fallacy very much does exist, which is great because it'll get us GLX)
 
My point was that we could have had some service sooner than we will have any GLX service -- not that a full build EMU plus NSRL could have happened faster (it certainly could not have). An EMU service would initially start off by piggybacking on existing infrastructure and improving existing infrastructure for not just the creation of a new service but also an improvement to an existing mode. The end game would have been a pairing with a south side line such as Fairmount, through-running at high frequencies with connections at North and South stations. It would have assisted in reaching a tipping point in electrifying commuter rail, plus there'd be potential for these modes to coexist on four tracks rather than two modes limited to two tracks each. Freight and switching/yard access would not be harmed nor conflict with revenue service as much as will happen under GLX.

It is almost all about the end game. The full-build potential under maximized utilization.

And how long would it have taken to build EMU service when:

1) There's no plans drawn up whatsoever for that and it would have to through DEIR, FEIR, and design-build itself for every commuter rail replacement station after all GLX permits and contracts were canceled and all committed federal money returned. Then begin again making the pitch for all-new FTA match funding under the Trump Administration.

2) There's no electrification base infrastructure whatsoever on the northside or at the terminal district. Add +5 years right there for bringing a 25 kV trunk supply down to Boston Engine Terminal, retrofitting the shops, and wiring up North Station

3) 13 overhead bridges would've had to be fixed for electrification over 17 ft. freight clearances, kicking off a whole new round of community input and design-build on bridge replacements. As well as new retaining wall design-build on the ones that would be undercut.

4) No vehicle procurement gets done in less than 5 years from issuing contract. And there is no DMU or EMU contract extant today. So re-RFP for most of 2017, and you *might* get your first vehicle on the property in 2022.


End result: service starts in 2022.. a year later than currently scheduled. And possibly with no billion in federal contributions.



Each strawman lazier and dumber than the last! C'mon, guys...we haven't misrepresented the sunk cost fallacy nearly hard enough. Let's see how stupid we can really drag this! :rolleyes:
 
They were probably better off putting the Silver Line in use out there. It would've been cheaper, I think!

Instead of laying ties & tacks, some money would've been saved, no?
 
They were probably better off putting the Silver Line in use out there. It would've been cheaper, I think!

Instead of laying ties & tacks, some money would've been saved, no?

You cannot get close to the needed service level with a BRT solution. Also that fails to provide service on through the CBD for people who need to go a wide range of destinations (North Station, Downtown, Back Bay plus connections on other lines).

Somerville has the density and pent up demand to justify rapid transit service on rail. We are talking about the most densely populated city or town in the Commonwealth. If you cannot build rail there, then we shouldn't have ANY RAIL.
 
You cannot get close to the needed service level with a BRT solution. Also that fails to provide service on through the CBD for people who need to go a wide range of destinations (North Station, Downtown, Back Bay plus connections on other lines).

Somerville has the density and pent up demand to justify rapid transit service on rail. We are talking about the most densely populated city or town in the Commonwealth. If you cannot build rail there, then we shouldn't have ANY RAIL.


We will see how all this pans out.

The MBTA has a lot of "irons in the fire" I think that their main concern is concentrating on keeping existing system-wide service running on or near schedule during the winter. :cool:
 
You cannot get close to the needed service level with a BRT solution. Also that fails to provide service on through the CBD for people who need to go a wide range of destinations (North Station, Downtown, Back Bay plus connections on other lines).

Somerville has the density and pent up demand to justify rapid transit service on rail. We are talking about the most densely populated city or town in the Commonwealth. If you cannot build rail there, then we shouldn't have ANY RAIL.

Are you arguing you can't get close with BRT on shared public roads or you can't get close with BRT on private ROW?

I can understand why it's not possible on shared infrastructure but a private ROW for BRT should be just as efficient as rail? Please explain if that is not the case because it's not intuitively obvious.
 
How the hell do you save on costs by building a wider ROW with more complicated tie-ins at both ends? Is anyone under the false impression that the expensive part of this project is the wooden ties? This is classic BRT creep though- despite being worse for riders AND more expensive, its still getting support!
 
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Are you arguing you can't get close with BRT on shared public roads or you can't get close with BRT on private ROW?

I can understand why it's not possible on shared infrastructure but a private ROW for BRT should be just as efficient as rail? Please explain if that is not the case because it's not intuitively obvious.

Heavily patronized buses bog down. They bunch. They load/unload slowly. They are one-sided.

Ari drew this picture for his blog, in which you see how BRT just doesn't scale. (I believe that the GLX, designed for 3-car ops, would have a performace curve halfway between 4-car "Calgary" than the standard 2-car "Boston" but you see how either outperforms BRT, and in the long run GLX will be adaptable to 4-car ops)

Note the dotted vertical line "typical service levels", at which a 3car GLX is something like triple BRT's capacity:
chart2.png
 
Just remember, that if we instead opted for DMU's, we could probably already have a service running with just a third or fourth railroad track added in plus platforms for less than 1/3 of the current estimate, plus numerous growth opportunities with additional investment.

The plan should have been Government center (brattle loop) to west Medford, using high level trains. Not a green line disaster
 
The plan should have been Government center (brattle loop) to west Medford, using high level trains. Not a green line disaster

WTF does this even mean? Brattle Loop IS the Green Line.

Is this thread now so off its nut we're just using random word generators to vent unfocused rage?
 
The plan should have been Government center (brattle loop) to west Medford, using high level trains. Not a green line disaster

how the hell would that work? Why would you cut off the rest of the green line from going north of Govt. Center?
 
WTF does this even mean? Brattle Loop IS the Green Line.

Is this thread now so off its nut we're just using random word generators to vent unfocused rage?

how the hell would that work? Why would you cut off the rest of the green line from going north of Govt. Center?

Simmer down kids, its not that hard a concept.

High level light rail (either electric or diesel) is superior to green line trains because of true level boarding + no space wasted on interior stairs. Also, smoother ride.

For the new stations, the concept is simple - build them high level platforms from the start.

For lechmere, north station and haymarket, you would have half the platform be low level, half be high level. Haymarket and North Station are already about 57 train cars long, so it is very possible. The new Lechmere would be built with this in mind.

BUT YOU CANT DO THAT

Except its a proven concept in Cleveland.

Thats where Brattle Loop comes in. The new Somerville line would terminate in Gvt Center using the loop. The loop itself would be designed for high doors, so no need to share.

Operationally, this is important, because a car on the tracks in Brighton wont fuck over service in Somerville. It is easier to manage two entirely separate lines than trying to throw in more branches
 
Simmer down kids, its not that hard a concept.

High level light rail (either electric or diesel) is superior to green line trains because of true level boarding + no space wasted on interior stairs. Also, smoother ride.

For the new stations, the concept is simple - build them high level platforms from the start.

For lechmere, north station and haymarket, you would have half the platform be low level, half be high level. Haymarket and North Station are already about 57 train cars long, so it is very possible. The new Lechmere would be built with this in mind.

BUT YOU CANT DO THAT

Except its a proven concept in Cleveland.

Thats where Brattle Loop comes in. The new Somerville line would terminate in Gvt Center using the loop. The loop itself would be designed for high doors, so no need to share.

Operationally, this is important, because a car on the tracks in Brighton wont fuck over service in Somerville. It is easier to manage two entirely separate lines than trying to throw in more branches

And what exactly do you do with Haymarket, North Station, Science Park? Low or high boarding?

Do you 1) skip these stations on your Lechmere GLX runs, or 2) not service them with low boarding cars from the rest of the Green Line? So no more direct North Station to CBD, Back Bay, Kenmore?
 
Simmer down kids, its not that hard a concept.

High level light rail (either electric or diesel) is superior to green line trains because of true level boarding + no space wasted on interior stairs. Also, smoother ride.

Irrelevant, because you can't get there from a level-boarding route. They ruled the Blue Line wraparound alternative as too hard to construct over 10 years ago. It's run as part of the Green Line network, so if there's going to be surface branches there has to be low boarding platforms. There's no parallel universe where we can cleanroom this thing, so that's just impotent postulating about something that can never happen.

Also: wrong, wrong, wrong on diesel and mainline RR DMU's. They're slower, heavier, and less nimble--anywhere in the world--than a rapid-transit car or trolley. Do not even try to fling this BS out there if you're not willing to offer any supporting data whatsoever. I want just one person in this thread who's lazily clinking to the "DMU's: the New BRT-ish Wonder Drug!" talking points to substantiate that with something.

It's been documented to the nines for decades that 15-minute headways are the most they can swing on shared commuter rail tracks. Dispatching is contingent on what the terminal district mash-up can bear. It doesn't matter where the GLX dinky peels off...North Station or this convoluted GC fantasy that doesn't have the clearances or weight limits to ever support it to begin with. If it interacts with any Lowell Line slots during the service day, it's going to be capped at 15. This isn't a hermetically-sealed operation like the RiverLINE under DMU's; it can't be if it's on the Lowell tracks. The hermetically-sealed operation we're building is GLX. Which goes to GC. So why in the hell is diesel even being mentioned except for pointless deflection?

Don't personally believe any of that...provide some evidence instead of fact-free snark.

For the new stations, the concept is simple - build them high level platforms from the start.
Answer all of the above, because this is irrelevant until you prove how you're going to get high-level cars there in the first place...on what mode...with that mode meeting the frequencies mandated by the project.

For lechmere, north station and haymarket, you would have half the platform be low level, half be high level. Haymarket and North Station are already about 57 train cars long, so it is very possible. The new Lechmere would be built with this in mind.
So you're going to save money by making the stations twice as expensive, add multiple NEW station mods to the project budget when the whole point of this ongoing sidebar is "the project is too expensive...it needs a less-expensive substitute!"...and cut capacity so no other trains can load back-to-back on the platforms. Haymarket is not "57 train cars long". You will no longer be able to board back-to-back trains in the station with a modification, which cuts headways on the Green Line writ-large because fewer branch schedules will be able to poke out there. All of the slack space for that on the other side of the wall in the pre-1971 station was eaten up by the new track curve into North Station. North Station's and Lechmere's platform lengths--and the contradictory budget premium you're spending on them--become irrelevant with Haymarket being the limiter.

What does that do to service? Right now Haymarket-Lechmere Station is slated to gain +1 branch's headways with GLX as the D joins the C & E to North Station and E through Science Park + Lechmere. 6-minute headways per each branch at peak. Cripple Haymarket's ability to load back-to-back and you eat those gains by sacrificing the additional 6-minute frequency branch schedule in favor of the pants-on-head high-level dinky's 15-minute maximum headway. Oh, and also tack on some additional loss of headway to Lechmere on top of that because of extra dispatching buffer needed to thread two branches' 6-minute headways with slotting from the Frankenstein dinky's mismatched 15-minute headways. Glorious mess!



BUT YOU CANT DO THAT
EXACTLY. SO WHY ARE YOU PROPOSING SHIT YOU CAN'T DO AS A SO-CALLED "SOLUTION"?

Words in posting field! So many words on this last page-plus with so little to say!

Except its a proven concept in Cleveland.
Explain what the fuck Cleveland has to do with the infrastructure in Boston? Comparing Oranges to kumquats proves nothing.

Thats where Brattle Loop comes in. The new Somerville line would terminate in Gvt Center using the loop. The loop itself would be designed for high doors, so no need to share.
Explain how you do this with all of the other constraints actively harming headways and driving up the budget for...reasons?

Operationally, this is important, because a car on the tracks in Brighton wont fuck over service in Somerville. It is easier to manage two entirely separate lines than trying to throw in more branches
No...the car on the tracks in Haymarket fucks over the cars in Brighton. Which is so much better because unsupported Internet argument.:rolleyes:
 
When did mass transit expansions get derailed (pardon the pun) by needing to make each part a showpiece, rather than just a means of transportation to/from a location?
 
And what exactly do you do with Haymarket, North Station, Science Park? Low or high boarding?

Do you 1) skip these stations on your Lechmere GLX runs, or 2) not service them with low boarding cars from the rest of the Green Line? So no more direct North Station to CBD, Back Bay, Kenmore?

4th paragraph.


Irrelevant, because you can't get there from a level-boarding route.

Im going to need a sentence that makes sense if you want a response.

Also: wrong, wrong, wrong on diesel and mainline RR DMU's.

Who are you responding to...???

It's been documented to the nines for decades that 15-minute headways are the most they can swing on shared commuter rail tracks.

Are you off your meds!?!

This is what a high floor light rail vehicle looks like


Explain what the fuck Cleveland has to do with the infrastructure in Boston? Comparing Oranges to kumquats proves nothing.

Holy shit you truly know nothing about transit.

The station combines a high-level platform rapid transit station with a low-level platform light rail station. The low-level island platform is located on the northwestern end of the station adjacent to East 34th Street, and the high-level island platform extends southeastward from it. Both the light rail and the heavy rail subway cars share the station.

Get out more. Breathe. Learn.
 
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