Green Line Extension to Medford & Union Sq

[JeffDowntown]

Where is this such an overwhelming problem in Boston? We aren't effing New York in level of pervasiveness. Name some locations instead of painting the broad brush that this should...steer writ-large systemwide SHELTER DESIGN in a direction of utter engineering FAIL for righteous reason? Seriously. This isn't a discussion that can be had in total generica.

Virtually every bus shelter on the Silver Line Washington has this problem.

 

[shmessy]

Virtually every bus shelter on the Silver Line Washington has this problem.

....and even in Newton and Brookline I can attest there would be SCORES of people living in that Seoul-example shelter too.

It's a deep, national issue and it will need an enormous solution far above the head of the T.

Let's just try to get competent roofing over the open air shelters, instead of the stupid slats or inverted roofings. No more unforced errors.

 

[JumboBuc]

Serious question: how is it that every random ass gas station in this country can afford full canopy cover, but that level of protection from the elements is practically unheard of in public transportation? How much does the semi-standardized canopy at every single Exxon/Shell/Sunoco/etc. station cost to build and maintain?

 

[bigeman312]

Serious question: how is it that every random ass gas station in this country can afford full canopy cover, but that level of protection from the elements is practically unheard of in public transportation? How much does the semi-standardized canopy at every single Exxon/Shell/Sunoco/etc. station cost to build and maintain?

Do you want the cost to build and maintain it by Exxon Mobile or the MBTA? We all know those would be two vastly different numbers.

 

[Ruairi]

Serious question: how is it that every random ass gas station in this country can afford full canopy cover, but that level of protection from the elements is practically unheard of in public transportation? How much does the semi-standardized canopy at every single Exxon/Shell/Sunoco/etc. station cost to build and maintain?

same reason it took 20 years to build the GLX and 20 minutes to build the casino.

 

[bakgwailo]

Weren't the original shelters much better (and fare controlled), before they were ve'd to hell to try to get the budget back in control when it started ballooning out?

 

[JumboBuc]

same reason it took 20 years to build the GLX and 20 minutes to build the casino.

Nah, it's different. Large projects are expensive and difficult because they have so so so many customized moving parts, and that all gets caught up in design purgatory and political red tape for decades. But there's no *good* reason why any one individual element of large projects can't be standardized and optimized.

We're getting covered stations now through air rights developments at some CR stations (Lansdowne, South Station) but this is a different animal. Does anybody know of any above ground subway / light rail stations with "train shed" style canopies in other cities (possibly in Northern Europe)?

Weren't the original shelters much better (and fare controlled), before they were ve'd to hell to try to get the budget back in control when it started ballooning out?

We've gotten into this before on this thread, but the lack of fare control at limited access above ground GL stations (e.g., nearly all of the GLX plus some others like Fenway) appears to be a policy decision as much as a cost decision.

 

[jass]

Does anybody know of any above ground subway / light rail stations with "train shed" style canopies in other cities (possibly in Northern Europe)?

Do you mean like this in Sao Paulo?

In Miami, the platform roof does extend over the vehicle as well

in DC, the roof doesnt extend the entire platform, but where it does, it extends over the rail vehicle

 

[Ruairi]

Nah, it's different. Large projects are expensive and difficult because they have so so so many customized moving parts, and that all gets caught up in design purgatory and political red tape for decades. But there's no *good* reason why any one individual element of large projects can't be standardized and optimized.

It was more a public/private rather than a project size point.
Gas stations with crappy canopies won't do any business in New England for half the year. So they shell out for good shelter (see what I did there).
The reason the GLX shelters aren't optimized is because of cost. This is a bare bones system. These are the cheapest shelters. People will still use these stations regardless of the style of shelter.

 

[jarvismj]

Do you mean like this in Sao Paulo?

In Miami, the platform roof does extend over the vehicle as well

in DC, the roof doesnt extend the entire platform, but where it does, it extends over the rail vehicle

So I'll jump in on this. Cool photos, but one thing in common that rules out overhanging anything are that all of these photos have third rail power... Last I checked the GLX is using overhead power...
I'll go ahead and doxx where I am living at the moment, but the attached photos show that the U-Bahn running with the third rail is covered quite well. On the other hand, the platform at Neuperlach Süd for the S-Bahn does not overhang and makes the platform a nightmare in the snow. I know, because I fell on my ass there last week.





Maybe one can hope that they will put some covered bus shelters that at least have three walls and a roof on the platform. They have some glass walls at the station, but it does a shit job at stopping the wind. You can most likely see them in the photos that I took.



As for the homeless issue, it's a catch-22... I would love to see the homeless issue tackled in Massachusetts and the USA for that matter, but we can't let that be the roadblock here. I also think that what the UK did in putting spikes on places that people sleep rough is abhorrent and ideas like that can get fucked. I propose seating that uses individual seats, spaced 18 inches apart, with armrests. Something like that would also be a bit helpful for the next pandemic, with built-in social distancing, whenever that happens (hopefully not for many, many years.) It's not a perfect solution, but make it uncomfortable if not impossible to sleep there, and then once we have this built, let's work on the homelessness issue.

 

[RandomWalk]

Seats with armrests do not accommodate all body shapes as well as a bench.

Should this conversation be moved to another thread?

 

[Jahvon09]

In the Concoarse, the long walkway between the Green & Orange Lines that runs right under Winter Street, the homeless used to sleep there at night. The Transit Police began kicking them out, especially after the area was cleaned up & repainted. Anywhere else, why should paying customers have to suffer because people want to sleep in those areas? This is ridiculous! However, they DO have enclosed shelters where the Charlie machines are kept. And they ARE heated during the winter, especially at night when the temps get really unbearable.

 

[Riverside]

Just to be clear, since I was the one who kicked us off on to this tangent... I agree that, as F-Line put it, something is fucked. Would I have made different decisions in the T's place? I dunno. They can't solve the housing crisis and the addiction crisis, and if the platform shelters do become shelters of a different sort, then they're gonna have to deal with that problem then, and it won't be pretty.

My main reason for bringing it up, though, is to point out that it's not just a matter of "designers who don't know what they're doing". There are political and societal reasons for these choices, and we shouldn't just fob it off on "clueless consultants" -- there's a serious problem here, and we shouldn't mistake the surface-level symptoms for the root cause.

 

[Jahvon09]

I feel that for those who sleep outside in platform shelters, then they should either go to their shelters or go home if they are sleepy. I would. But that's just me. You'd think that to sleep comfortably, that would be the thing to do. The only train that I'd sleep on is an Amtrak train. Especially going state to state.

 

[BostonTrainGuy]

In the Concoarse, the long walkway between the Green & Orange Lines that runs right under Winter Street, the homeless used to sleep there at night. The Transit Police began kicking them out . . .

The homeless used to sleep in the subway all the time and they knew every nook and cranny where they could do it. Lots of opportunities and they weren't harassed that much. 9-11 changed all that.

 

[Ruairi]

New station structure going up at east Somerville. Sorry about the crappy photo. Taken from the corner of Washington and tufts.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I hate to keep begging the thread tangent...but upslope shelter on top of an unprotected hillside? You might as well plant a garden, not a platform, underneath that thing because all it is is a de facto moisture collector.

 

[jass]

So I'll jump in on this. Cool photos, but one thing in common that rules out overhanging anything are that all of these photos have third rail power... Last I checked the GLX is using overhead power...

Very good point that I didnt consider.

I found this example in Pittsburgh, looks like they found a solution! Drains!

 

[RandomWalk]

What’s the maintenance budget in Pittsburgh? The MBTA likes to defer the maintenance into the capital budget.

 

[stefal]

What’s the maintenance budget in Pittsburgh? The MBTA likes to defer the maintenance into the capital budget.

...and then cut the capital budget....

Big headaches incoming if they don't get this sorted out.