Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/medford/2012/07/feds_approve_green_line_ext_en.html
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/medford/2012/07/feds_approve_green_line_ext_en.html
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
Why would an inflation-adjusted gas tax be "unworkable"? How about just a percentage tax, like the sales tax. Is the sales tax unworkable? Gasoline is exempt from the sales tax as it is.
Why would an inflation-adjusted gas tax be "unworkable"? How about just a percentage tax, like the sales tax. Is the sales tax unworkable? Gasoline is exempt from the sales tax as it is.
DominusNovus
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,065
- Reaction score
- 170
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
Because I and many other voters have no interest in paying higher prices for gasoline.
Because I and many other voters have no interest in paying higher prices for gasoline.
HenryAlan
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,889
- Reaction score
- 3,721
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
So you prefer not to pay your fare share. Nice!
So you prefer not to pay your fare share. Nice!
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
Among other reasons because then the revenue stream is totally unpredictable
Note that the price of gasoline has fluctated by a factor of two over the past 4 years -- it was under $2.00 per galon in 2008 -- there is no particular reason why over the next few years that the price of gasoline might not decline to the level it had in 2008
So if you based your finances on the $4.00 per galon gasoline of last summer with say a 5% tax == $0.20 then you'd be in a big heap of trouble if the price plunged to $2.00 and your revenue fell to $0.10 / galon
No -- the T needs to construct a financial framework that uses its dedicated revenues effectively:
1) fare box revenues for opperations supplemented with the existing dedicated sales tax revenues and assessments on the cities and towns
2) new construction and major reconstruction deemed of critical need such as GLX should not should be pay-as-you-go:
a) no more long term bonding
b) money should be directly appropriated by the Mass Legislature as part of a Capital Budget -- no relying on the Feds for the key infrastructure
3) Maximum ultilization of private capital to suplements to #2 such as Assembly Square, New Balance, or Harvard Alston
4) region deals when appropriate such as with RI and potentially NH for CR
5) Federal funds if available to supplement #2 -- but projects should not rely on Fed funds
Among other reasons because then the revenue stream is totally unpredictable
Note that the price of gasoline has fluctated by a factor of two over the past 4 years -- it was under $2.00 per galon in 2008 -- there is no particular reason why over the next few years that the price of gasoline might not decline to the level it had in 2008
So if you based your finances on the $4.00 per galon gasoline of last summer with say a 5% tax == $0.20 then you'd be in a big heap of trouble if the price plunged to $2.00 and your revenue fell to $0.10 / galon
No -- the T needs to construct a financial framework that uses its dedicated revenues effectively:
1) fare box revenues for opperations supplemented with the existing dedicated sales tax revenues and assessments on the cities and towns
2) new construction and major reconstruction deemed of critical need such as GLX should not should be pay-as-you-go:
a) no more long term bonding
b) money should be directly appropriated by the Mass Legislature as part of a Capital Budget -- no relying on the Feds for the key infrastructure
3) Maximum ultilization of private capital to suplements to #2 such as Assembly Square, New Balance, or Harvard Alston
4) region deals when appropriate such as with RI and potentially NH for CR
5) Federal funds if available to supplement #2 -- but projects should not rely on Fed funds
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
The sales tax suffers from the same problem, one of the reasons the T's funding stream has run dry. I wasn't talking about necessarily funding the T through the gas tax, just wondering why it isn't percentage-based like the sales tax. Seems inequitable. And the revenue from the fixed-constant gas tax also fluctuates with the economy; people purchase much less gasoline in a down economy, which is why the price changes so much.
I'm okay with not relying on Federal funds if highway expansion projects are the same. Receiving 90% subsidy from the Feds is like crack. That promise really drove the Big Dig fiasco, that we wouldn't have to pay for it, and then fell flat when the Feds cut us off.
But I'm totally with you about getting private development on the land served by the new stations. We cannot allow the GLX land to lie fallow irresponsibly like parts of the Southwest corridor. That would be a total waste.
The sales tax suffers from the same problem, one of the reasons the T's funding stream has run dry. I wasn't talking about necessarily funding the T through the gas tax, just wondering why it isn't percentage-based like the sales tax. Seems inequitable. And the revenue from the fixed-constant gas tax also fluctuates with the economy; people purchase much less gasoline in a down economy, which is why the price changes so much.
I'm okay with not relying on Federal funds if highway expansion projects are the same. Receiving 90% subsidy from the Feds is like crack. That promise really drove the Big Dig fiasco, that we wouldn't have to pay for it, and then fell flat when the Feds cut us off.
But I'm totally with you about getting private development on the land served by the new stations. We cannot allow the GLX land to lie fallow irresponsibly like parts of the Southwest corridor. That would be a total waste.
underground
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2007
- Messages
- 2,390
- Reaction score
- 3
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
Because cheap gas and roads are a God given right. It's in the Constitution and/or Bible.
Because cheap gas and roads are a God given right. It's in the Constitution and/or Bible.
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
It would be interesting to have a dynamic tax, but I am not sure how workable it is from both a technical and political viewpoint.
The idea is this, and obviously not something I am wedded to, but throwing it out there for discussion.
The way it would work would be say the state says the sale price of reg. unleaded will never go below 3.50/gal. If gas decline significantly below, the tax will be 30% plus whatever the increment to get to 3.50/gal. I think this particularly scenario is unlikely.
On the other end, The tax would diminish should significant upward price pressure be placed on it. So (and this is just representative, not scientific), goes to 15% at $4/gal and 7% at 4.50+.
This would limit the gas price collapse that leads to tax revenue loss and discourages thinks like fuel efficiency and ToD, but recognizes the macro-economic pain caused by price spikes on people's lives and business. If people new gas prices would never go below a certain rate, they can plan and budget accordingly, investing in efficiency.
(Mods: This could get way off the GLX and may need to be moved. Apologies in advance)
It would be interesting to have a dynamic tax, but I am not sure how workable it is from both a technical and political viewpoint.
The idea is this, and obviously not something I am wedded to, but throwing it out there for discussion.
The way it would work would be say the state says the sale price of reg. unleaded will never go below 3.50/gal. If gas decline significantly below, the tax will be 30% plus whatever the increment to get to 3.50/gal. I think this particularly scenario is unlikely.
On the other end, The tax would diminish should significant upward price pressure be placed on it. So (and this is just representative, not scientific), goes to 15% at $4/gal and 7% at 4.50+.
This would limit the gas price collapse that leads to tax revenue loss and discourages thinks like fuel efficiency and ToD, but recognizes the macro-economic pain caused by price spikes on people's lives and business. If people new gas prices would never go below a certain rate, they can plan and budget accordingly, investing in efficiency.
(Mods: This could get way off the GLX and may need to be moved. Apologies in advance)
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
Choo -- sounds like the gasoline version of most of the agricultural subsidy programs such as milk and grains
Taxes are much better received when it is clear what the tax is and what is the use assocaited with the revenues -- that is why for so many years that the direct Federal Gasoline Tax was so successful
People knew how much gasoline tax they were paying and that everything that they paid went to building the Federal Highway System -- once that chain was broken and once the formulas for funding projects became varible -- people started to object
Choo -- sounds like the gasoline version of most of the agricultural subsidy programs such as milk and grains
Taxes are much better received when it is clear what the tax is and what is the use assocaited with the revenues -- that is why for so many years that the direct Federal Gasoline Tax was so successful
People knew how much gasoline tax they were paying and that everything that they paid went to building the Federal Highway System -- once that chain was broken and once the formulas for funding projects became varible -- people started to object
DominusNovus
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,065
- Reaction score
- 170
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
Please, feel free to explain how supporting the existing gas tax rate (29th in the nation, FYI) is 'not paying my fair share' (assuming that was just a typo, and not a pun in your original post).
Please, feel free to explain how supporting the existing gas tax rate (29th in the nation, FYI) is 'not paying my fair share' (assuming that was just a typo, and not a pun in your original post).
DominusNovus
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,065
- Reaction score
- 170
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
There are plenty of particular reasons why we are unlikely to see gas drop to that price. Just as there isn't much political support for hiking up taxes, I don't know if there's enough support for the increase in drilling that would be necessary to outpace the global increase in oil consumption. Unless, of course, we can scale up CNG usage enough to impact crude prices.
There are plenty of particular reasons why we are unlikely to see gas drop to that price. Just as there isn't much political support for hiking up taxes, I don't know if there's enough support for the increase in drilling that would be necessary to outpace the global increase in oil consumption. Unless, of course, we can scale up CNG usage enough to impact crude prices.
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
That's easy: inflation has degraded the value of the gas tax by about a third since it was last set.
If we assume that it was set to a "fair" value originally (too little, really), it is now 66% of a "fair" value.
Same goes for the Federal gas tax, which is why the Interstate highway trust fund is in big trouble.
That's easy: inflation has degraded the value of the gas tax by about a third since it was last set.
If we assume that it was set to a "fair" value originally (too little, really), it is now 66% of a "fair" value.
Same goes for the Federal gas tax, which is why the Interstate highway trust fund is in big trouble.
DominusNovus
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,065
- Reaction score
- 170
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
I dispute the idea that any given value is inherently more fair or unfair in the current system, regardless of what inflation is.
I dispute the idea that any given value is inherently more fair or unfair in the current system, regardless of what inflation is.
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
So, tell me, where does the money to pay for maintenance of the infrastructure come from?
So, tell me, where does the money to pay for maintenance of the infrastructure come from?
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
Mathew -- a lot of the "Pro-transit / rail -- anti-highway at all costs crowd" would say that the original allocation to highways was too much and then it just grew as consumption of gasoline per capita rose and the boomer capitas increased as well
So -- perhaps the tax is where it ought to be to not overwhelm us with highways
The point behind the above is while the value of the gas tax has changed -- its not clear that it was optimum to begin with and hence its impossible to know if it is under or over the proper value today
The best way to set the tax would be for DOT to develop and Congress to fund a multi -- perhaps 5 year -- transportation capital budget with the gas and other transportation tax rates set as needed to fund the budget. I'd make sure that there was a bit of contingency built in for the difficulty in estimating revenues / costs 5 years out.
Everyone involved would know where the money was coming from and to whence it was going
Done
Mathew -- a lot of the "Pro-transit / rail -- anti-highway at all costs crowd" would say that the original allocation to highways was too much and then it just grew as consumption of gasoline per capita rose and the boomer capitas increased as well
So -- perhaps the tax is where it ought to be to not overwhelm us with highways
The point behind the above is while the value of the gas tax has changed -- its not clear that it was optimum to begin with and hence its impossible to know if it is under or over the proper value today
The best way to set the tax would be for DOT to develop and Congress to fund a multi -- perhaps 5 year -- transportation capital budget with the gas and other transportation tax rates set as needed to fund the budget. I'd make sure that there was a bit of contingency built in for the difficulty in estimating revenues / costs 5 years out.
Everyone involved would know where the money was coming from and to whence it was going
Done
AmericanFolkLegend
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2009
- Messages
- 2,209
- Reaction score
- 241
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
I dispute the idea that the earth is round.
I dispute the idea that the earth is round.
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
How else would you benchmark changes in prices, expenses, revenues, etc.? If everything is getting more expensive and the source of funding remains static, you end up with the transportation deficit and deferred maintenance mess we have now. Very simple.
How else would you benchmark changes in prices, expenses, revenues, etc.? If everything is getting more expensive and the source of funding remains static, you end up with the transportation deficit and deferred maintenance mess we have now. Very simple.
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011
AMF -- that's good because if you mean spherical rather than a two D term such as round -- well its not
Satellite geodesey has revealed that the earth is a flatened essentially pear shape with the north and south hemispheres not exactly symetric
So I would dispute its sphericity myself as there are even higher-order deviations from a sphere -- but I've digressed enough already
AMF -- that's good because if you mean spherical rather than a two D term such as round -- well its not
Satellite geodesey has revealed that the earth is a flatened essentially pear shape with the north and south hemispheres not exactly symetric
So I would dispute its sphericity myself as there are even higher-order deviations from a sphere -- but I've digressed enough already