Green Line Type 10 Procurement

TheRatmeister said:
It seems like they're constrained by the requirement to be extra bendy.
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I think it's also the window frames. They don't look any different from the windows on the PCC posted above.
Most European trams have rectangular windows with hard corners that are larger on the outside. The Type 10 paint scheme doesn't do much to mask like the T does on buses with the black paint.
The chosen color scheme doesn't help either.
 
nortor said:
I seem to recall learning that federal crashworthiness standards restrict the size of windows, although I can’t figure out the regulation — it may be that stringent crash standards essentially mandate smaller windows if not explicitly.
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Kansas City uses the CAF Urbos 3, the same make the Type 10's are derived from, without shrinking the windows. It's definitely not FTA regs that govern the window size.

KC-streetcar-sized.png
 
Well then, that really stinks. I suppose there’s no hope of them changing it at this point.
 
Tomorow & Friday, the MBTA will reveal the new Type 10 mockup to be put on display at City Hall Plaza!! You'll get the chance to see how it will look inside & out & you'll also be able to give your input about what you think. Your likes or dislikes.

Come one, come all. This is your chance to give some input & voice your opinions. The mockup will be on display from 0700 to 1900. Don't miss this great opportunity to see Boston's newest MBTA mockup on display!!!
Type 10..jpg
 
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737900er said:
I think it's also the window frames. They don't look any different from the windows on the PCC posted above.
Most European trams have rectangular windows with hard corners that are larger on the outside. The Type 10 paint scheme doesn't do much to mask like the T does on buses with the black paint.
The chosen color scheme doesn't help either.
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It's the rubber gasket type seal on many US versions of buses and trams that make our fleets look notably clunkier. Most European systems, like you said, purchase buses and trams that have a gasket only on the inside of the glazing instead of it wrapping around the glazing completely forming a seal.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Kansas City uses the CAF Urbos 3, the same make the Type 10's are derived from, without shrinking the windows. It's definitely not FTA regs that govern the window size.

KC-streetcar-sized.png
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Yeah, someone needs to ask Eng why the stock Urbos 3 doesn’t work for the T.
 
RandomWalk said:
Yeah, someone needs to ask Eng why the stock Urbos 3 doesn’t work for the T.
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I mean, it's been discussed to death. The legacy Green Line system is riddled with century old tunnels that have curves that are much tighter than those on any other system bar Toronto's. Off the shelf, I believe the Urbos 3 can do 60ft curves? I believe the current standard is 66ft/20m, which is common in places like Portland or Kansas City. The T has stated that they see the Park St loop as non-negotiable for operations, so once the pending Lake/Reservoir Yard retrofits are complete, that 47ft curve is the new ruling curve on the system. The extra 5ft post lechmere is what gives the T enough flexibility for the new type 10, which is likely mechanically a relatively lightly modded Urbos, but its still tight enough to not be off-the-shelf compatible.
1000038061.jpg

Frankly, for the given length, the type 10 has more segments than the standard Urbos 3 - the type 10 is ~115 ft long, and has 7 segments. The standard Urbos 3 used in Sydney is ~110ft long over 5 segments. Given that it has smaller individual segments that segmentation likely drives fewer windows in of itself, since each segment still needs structural corners. Even in that KC streetcar example, you can see a couple of feet at the flex points where the frameless window is faking it.
 
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Stlin said:
I mean, it's been discussed to death. The legacy Green Line system is riddled with century old tunnels that have curves that are much tighter than those on any other system bar Toronto's. Off the shelf, I believe the Urbos 3 can do 60ft curves? I believe the current standard is 66ft/20m, which is common in places like Portland or Kansas City. The T has stated that they see the Park St loop as non-negotiable for operations, so once the pending Lake/Reservoir Yard retrofits are complete, that 47ft curve is the new ruling curve on the system. The extra 5ft post lechmere is what gives the T enough flexibility for the new type 10, which is likely mechanically a relatively lightly modded Urbos, but its still tight enough to not be off-the-shelf compatible.
View attachment 57373
Frankly, for the given length, the type 10 has more segments than the standard Urbos 3 - the type 10 is ~115 ft long, and has 7 segments. The standard Urbos 3 used in Sydney is ~110ft long over 5 segments. Given that it has smaller individual segments that segmentation likely drives fewer windows in of itself, since each segment still needs structural corners. Even in that KC streetcar example, you can see a couple of feet at the flex points where the frameless window is faking it.
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All good points, but the KC Streetcar and the Sydney Light Rail looks SO MUCH better in my opinion. They look more modern.
 
Stlin, thanks for the data on the curves. I was thinking more about the styling of the windows and side walls, but my comment was ambiguous.

Stylistically, the KC side walls devote more space to the glass, even if some is faked. The glazing is flush with the wall surface. My question to Eng is why that is not possible on the Type 10.
 
RandomWalk said:
Stlin, thanks for the data on the curves. I was thinking more about the styling of the windows and side walls, but my comment was ambiguous.

Stylistically, the KC side walls devote more space to the glass, even if some is faked. The glazing is flush with the wall surface. My question to Eng is why that is not possible on the Type 10.
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Yea thats exactly what it is that makes them seem older already before theyve even been delivered, its the small windows and external gaskets. It does carry on the “heritage” I guess you could call it through to the new cars, but idk I feel like it would be nice to have our rolling stock really look as modern as it gets for once.

This angle shows pretty well how the glass goes down the entire side of the car and then the gaskets seal against the glass from the inside where the window cut out is.

1730175724455.jpeg


Where on the type 10 the glass is only where the window cutout is and the gasket is on the outside.
IMG_1137.jpeg


I would also be interested to know why were doing it this way here, when other us cities can get the modern european style windows. It honestly does make it look dated already unfortunately.
 
stick n move said:
Yea thats exactly what it is that makes them seem older already before theyve even been delivered, its the small windows and external gaskets. It does carry on the “heritage” I guess you could call it through to the new cars, but idk I feel like it would be nice to have our rolling stock really look as modern as it gets for once.

This angle shows pretty well how the glass goes down the entire side of the car and then the gaskets seal against the glass from the inside where the window cut out is.

View attachment 57376

Where on the type 10 the glass is only where the window cutout is and the gasket is on the outside.
View attachment 57377

I would also be interested to know why were doing it this way here, when other us cities can get the modern european style windows. It honestly does make it look dated already unfortunately.
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My personal assumption is as follows:

Stock Urbos 3 = CAF as OEM maintains and makes available an inventory of Urbos specific frameless windows for repairs, since they're the same across the worldwide fleet of 1000+ vehicles.

Non-stock/bespoke type 10 = inability to integrate existing molded windows, leading to framed windows cut out of flat glass/polycarbonate and standard gaskets that both CAF and the T can manufacture simply and enable in-house replacements. Same logic extends to the type 9s, Houston and MTA Purple Line's non-Urbos CAF LRVs, though admittedly for the latter two their black painted window bands largely masks it.
 
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NHMaples said:
I am liking the retro style. Doors, windows, paint scheme, it's all understated and inviting.
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It also pays respect to the Green Line as one of the longest serving systems in the world. It shouldn't look flashy (and I'd argue cheap) like some new limited utility streetcar line that needs to make a splash. These cars speak to history, stability, and longevity, all things we should associate with a system that has been in continuous service for 130 years.
 
Wow these things really aren't going to have many seats are they. Looks like maybe 50-ish compared to 46 on a Type 7 and 44 on a Type 8/9.

Makes me think selling a Needham conversion to Green might be tougher than I thought if it involves going from CR seats to this.
 
I really like the new info boards being included on the grab rails, but are there any concerns of vandalism or these screens getting beat up pretty quickly? Apologies if this was discussed up thread already.
 
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