Harbor Garage Redevelopment Pontificating | Waterfront

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i expected a slightly cantilevered northside wall.

We're sure getting that. Possibly on the Greenway side too.

There will be no cantilever unless he wants to reduce the overall floorplate elsewhere. And why would he do that?

...However, the City’s Plan does include a clause that holds that “canopies, awnings, and covers that create a more comfortable environment for the public shall not be considered to reduce the calculated open space for Chapter 91 purposes.” Under Chapter 91, the Commonwealth’s interpretation is that open space means “clear to the sky,” and in the calculation of building footprint (or lot coverage), building elements such as retractable roofs, glassed-in areas, canopies, balconies, awnings, and other temporary or permanent covers are included. Although the Plan did not explicitly request a substitute provision for lot coverage, I am requiring that any redevelopment comply with the 50 percent open space, clear to the sky, standard.
https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/04/30/downtown-boston-mhp-decision-4-30-18.pdf

28675 sq ft is 50 percent of the parcel. 900,000 / 28675 is 31 floors with a few feet left over.
 
Yup. An indent that allows the developer to claim the tower 'takes up 1/2 of the lot' has virtually no PR value – but would ostensibly take less from the public realm at ground level. This can't be a bad thing, unless the tower itself looks like crap. Of course, Peter Shelly/CLF, Lee Kozol & his HT gang will scream foul and lead their minions. The floorplate at it's widest point take up ~50% of the [HG lot + IMAX lot], but do no better. Just reality.
 
There will be no cantilever unless he wants to reduce the overall floorplate elsewhere. And why would he do that?


https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/04/30/downtown-boston-mhp-decision-4-30-18.pdf

28675 sq ft is 50 percent of the parcel. 900,000 / 28675 is 31 floors with a few feet left over.

That would imply a box though, right? As in he'd using the entire 28,675 per floor, for 31-32 floors at 13 ft per floor or a height of 400 feet + mechanicals.

However, if he wants to do something more funky, isn't that why the zoning is up to 600 ft? That gives him another 15 floors to work with, and I would assume higher rents the further up the thing goes.
 
Those numbers don't look right.

My understanding is it's going all the way to 600'. i think you can bank on it. i'm expecting something similar to SST w/ Citicorp shaped roof. Luxury/most-expensive in Boston offices (for Bezos) down low and slender, sexy and insanely expensive condo's up top. Don says he wants hotels. There certainly could be a St Regis or Bulgari in the mix. i wouldn't discount that possibility.

Maybe 12 floors of offices w/ a Bulgari Hotel in the middle, Ultra Lux condo's up top. That could be why he needs a wide footprint at the base.

A very big tower w/ ~46-50 occupied floors.
 
My understanding is it's probably never going to happen, because this is Boston.

There is a very powerful group that does not want to see this built. They would rather the garage because Chiofaro/Pru would build something that would most likely become a destination spot for the public.

It would be devastating for the city of Boston to allow this garage to hover over the Greenway for another 50 years.
 
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There is a very powerful group that does not want to see this built. They would rather the garage because Chiofaro/Pru would build something that would most likely become a destination spot for the public.

It would be devastating for the city of Boston to allow this garage to hover over the Greenway for another 50 years.

I agree. This is the NIMBY's Waterloo. After losing on Winthrop Square and 150 Seaport Ave its the only thing they have left. Many of these professional NIMBY's are elderly now (Kressel, Hostettler) and won't be around for the next development cycle, so Harbor Towers Garage is their last rodeo. Wasn't a problem with Menino was mayor because he hated Chiofaro. With Mahhty in office they're forced to win the argument using logic and merit, and they're failing miserably.
 
Those numbers don't look right.

My understanding is it's going all the way to 600'. i think you can bank on it. i'm expecting something similar to SST w/ Citicorp shaped roof. Luxury/most-expensive in Boston offices (for Bezos) down low and slender, sexy and insanely expensive condo's up top. Don says he wants hotels. There certainly could be a St Regis or Bulgari in the mix. i wouldn't discount that possibility.

Maybe 12 floors of offices w/ a Bulgari Hotel in the middle, Ultra Lux condo's up top. That could be why he needs a wide footprint at the base.

A very big tower w/ ~46-50 occupied floors.

Chiofaro wants a lot of things. When he first announced this tower, he said it would have the most expensive condos in Boston. (He said that even though he has no experience in building / selling residential.)

Assuming full buildout of available 28,750 square feet allowed through floor 22

That gives him 270,000 sq ft above floor 22

Floor 23 25,000 sq ft
24 23,000
25 21,000
26 19,000
27 17,000
28 15,000
^^^ This taper leaves him with 150,000 sq ft

Floors 29-33 are each 12,000 sq ft
Floor 33 reaches the magic 420 foot level with 12.5 feet per floor

^^^^ This leaves him with 90,000 sq ft
Floors 34-44 all have an 8,000 gsf floorplate
That gets him 900,000 gross sq ft and about 550 feet
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Image%2012%20432%20PA%20B1M%20DOKA.jpg


^^^432 Park under construction

Floor%20plate%20structure%20432%20PA%20B1M.jpg


432 Park floorplate with core in blue. With this note: "two floors in every 12 have been left open so that wind currents can pass through. These spaces each contain mechanical services for the six floors above and below them to reduce the amount of ductwork needed internally."
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As for '50' total floors for the HT garage, that is not a luxury condo. Ceiling heights at the Four Seasons residences run between 11 and 14 feet.

I'll add an opinion that because the core for any 'spire' has to be tucked in the SW corner (to avoid shadows on Long wharf) that likely means he needs a second core to serve the eastern part of the building. How high, floor-wise, that second core would go would depend of a floor's floorplate.

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And I'll add one more thing: Google maps has a highway going under the very SW corner of his property. If Google maps is accurate, he can't build tall at the SW corner of the property or anywhere near the I-93 tunnel wall. Any attempt to move the tower part to the east or north runs into the no new shadow prohibition.
 
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Why is this project turning you into Ned? Is it personal?
 
Just think; Ned and his INSANE minions won THREE times to zero on 3 projects that would have transformed Boston with Copley Tower, and 425', 305' highrises joined 5 neighborhoods w/ 2 dense, walk-able street grids above a decked Pike that would have completely changed Boston....

And that son of a bitch doesn't even live here anymore.

As for '50' total floors for the HT garage, that is not a luxury condo. Ceiling heights at the Four Seasons residences run between 11 and 14 feet.

Fully agree. Why my best guess was/is ~48 stories.

w/ some office floors Don can go that high and still achieve Four Seasons floor heights.

Unfortunately, my impression of the (ideal) tower is ~1,050,000 sq ft.

.
 
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Google maps has a highway going under the very SW corner of his property. If Google maps is accurate, he can't build tall at the SW corner of the property or anywhere near the I-93 tunnel wall.


It's not accurate. The tunnel walls were originally the support for the elevated roadway during construction. They installed a wider set of columns on top of them with beams in between. The walls align pretty much with outside lanes of Atlantic Avenue in that area.
 
wonk, thanks. I'm familiar with an instance in which a building was built on top of a rather old, large sewer -- 108? inch brick arch design. Pilings to support the building were placed outside of an easement area provided for the sewer. This original building is being re-developed, with the new building weighing considerably more. The utility owning the sewer is seeking to expand the easement area to protect the sewer, which, if granted, could complicate how the frame carries the load. If the utility were to dig in its heels, the developer won't get a building permit. And one certainly doesn't want to collapse a sewer of this size.
 
I have a question:

Why didn't the developer just accept the city 200ft proposal keep the garage as is and build on top some condo units?

There is no risk for the developer/investors for the garage to get a new face add some rental units on top. The garage would continue to block up all the space from the Greenway to the waterfront for most likely life at that point.

It would be awful for the public, but there would be no risk for the developer/investors and they continue with the cash cow garage/some rental/condo units.

I feel like the developer has a better interest for the overall area than the city planners at this point for allowing this to play on for so long.
 
I have a question:

Why didn't the developer just accept the city 200ft proposal keep the garage as is and build on top some condo units?

There is no risk for the developer/investors for the garage to get a new face add some rental units on top. The garage would continue to block up all the space from the Greenway to the waterfront for most likely life at that point.

It would be awful for the public, but there would be no risk for the developer/investors and they continue with the cash cow garage/some rental/condo units.

I feel like the developer has a better interest for the overall area than the city planners at this point for allowing this to play on for so long.

I would say Don was most likely blocked from planting a tree on his property by the Menino administration so there was no point in pursing that. However, now that he's got a friendlier mayor in office you have to wonder how long he puts up with crazed NIMBY's before he just starts playing hardball. If he really wanted to screw people he ought to add more parking decks up to the current zoning limit! :D
 
So basically the city officials were banking on the developer to go bankrupt instead of actually supporting a development that would make sense in the area for the developer and the overall public.

Its very sad to see how this has evolved over the last 12 years and see the true colors on how these politicans along with the city planners are looking out for the best interest in the city.

Having this above parking garage blocking the entire waterfront in the middle of the Greenway is absolutely unacceptable. That is the entire reason why we took down the Green Monster.

Please tell me how our city planners represent the best interest of the taxpayers by allowing this not to be developed or actually work with the developer?
This has been going on for 12YEARS? Give the developer 50 Million in tax breaks to knock this garage out. The developer is creating jobs.

Please enlighten how this garage is the best option for this area than the developer's proposal?

I guess its business as usual.
 
NIMBY's are like Trump supporters - basically making up facts out of thin air to support a pre-conceived notion.

The opposition to this development hinges on a key NIMBY misconception - that Chiofaro paid too much for the garage and is now this close to going under, thus he's desperate to give in to all ludicrous demands. For example, despite all of his useable knowledge about the situation, stellarfan was peddling this myth for years until I used his own #'s to point out that Don is making a million+ dollar a year profit after taxes, and the market value of the land has gone up, so saying he paid too much for the property defies logic. Yet, you STILL see this argument come up, again and again.

When you think you have leverage that you don't, you tend to make absurd demands that have no basis in reality. That's why the garage will most likely stay as is for the next 50+ years as generations of NIMBY's patiently wait for it to start losing money...someday...just around the corner...
 
GREAT CITY PLANNING-

Harbor Garage greatest political architectural statement on the Greenway.

"When our city planners claim the garage is a better option for the public than an actual developer's proposal" This is priceless--

Shows the true colors of our political nature.
 
I have a question:

Why didn't the developer just accept the city 200ft proposal keep the garage as is and build on top some condo units?

There is no risk for the developer/investors for the garage to get a new face add some rental units on top. The garage would continue to block up all the space from the Greenway to the waterfront for most likely life at that point.
......

Chiofaro's original vision was for a signature building, and perhaps an iconic building (trying not to overuse the "I" word). IP is a signature building, and I think his thinking was to bookend the Greenway with two signature buildings, both developed by himself. A fine final tribute to his flair for evocative design and business acumen.

To do this, he decided he needed to bury the existing garage. Which created three problems: 1.) very significant construction costs resulted; 2.) what to do about the x number of parking space in the garage that HT residents had a 'right' to? 3.) his replacement building became subject to Chapter 91 (state law) which decrees that 50 percent of the land on which the current garage is built must be open to the sky if the current garage is demolished.

IMO -- and I don't practice law in Massachusetts so don't rely on this -- if he left the existing garage in place, and built on top, he would have a strong argument to build on the full 57,000 sf lot, not just half of it. How tall could be go? I believe he again would have strong argument in building to about the same height as HT, or 400 feet, more or less. And he could point out, that the original plan for HT called for a third 400 foot tower.

Existing garage is about 70 feet tall, so 330 additional feet (to 400 feet) gives him 25 floors @13 foot floor heights. 25 floors x 55,000 gsf per floor gives him 1.375 million gsf of new building. HT residents can't really object about a building that is of similar height to theirs.
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432 Park.

Developer paid, IIRC, $475 million for a hotel that was demolished. On the hotel site, developer built a very tall, very thin condo building. Assuming construction costs of $2,000 a square foot, and a building that is roughly 400,000 square feet total, the cost to the developer was >$1.2 billion. (Assuming no soft costs in the $2,000 per sq ft construction cost, one would need to add this to the total.)

At an average sales price of $6,000 a square foot, the condos would generate about $2.4 billion in sales revenue -- roughly double the >$1.2 billion cost to build.

Back to Chiofaro's garage: 1.) ultra high per sq ft condo sales don't happen in Boston; 2.) those who are paying the per sq ft sales prince for a condo in the Four Seasons residences don't want to see and hear the bourgeoisie frolicking outside their lobby door day and night (i.e., I'm not paying $10 million to live on top of Boston's equivalent of Times Square; 3.) the per square condo sales price for the existing HT towers is nowhere near as expensive as Chiofaro's condos would be, and many HT residences will have a better view.
 
Really I wouldn't think worse of the guy if he went ahead and did that (building on top of existing garage). He should put together a design, make it public and then mention how it conforms with all existing laws and regulations since he's not taking down the garage. Not only would that frost the CLF's collective ass, but he can make sure to credit them personally for helping him to arrive at this solution in case the public wants to thank them as well... ;)
 
And one certainly doesn't want to collapse a sewer of this size.

FWIW, there’s nothing under, or in proximity underground to that parcel which would prevent development of more height on top of the existing structure, or a tower like what is being discussed. Most of those problems were solved close to the Greenway as part of the Big Dig.
 
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