I-695, Soutwst X-Way, Mystic Valley Prkway, S. End Bypass

[bigeman312]

I think at a certain point you might consider that the problem isn't that you don't have an easy commute to Waltham from Charlestown, it's that you're probably better off living somewhere closer to Waltham.

And come to think of it, taking I-93 from Charlestown to the Pike to 128 is just as direct to Waltham as a hypothetical Inner Belt to 2 to 128 would be.

Exactly. I will be working in Waltham for the forseeable future and am planning on moving. Charlestown is nice, but I wouldn't consider moving there based on how far it is from Waltham.

Living in Charlestown and demanding that everyone that lives between where you live and where you work move so that a super highway can be built that accommodates your CHOICE in residence and employment is, frankly, evil.

Move closer to where you work, work closer to where you live, take public transportation, deal with the miserable drive (which should be miserable rather than destroying neighborhoods). Those are the options without demanding evil things be done to accommodate your unsustainable choices. </rant>

 

[fattony]

Yeah-- the pike absolutely devastated kenmore square, the back bay, and much of allston brighton making it completely undesirable for every generation of yuppies that have moved to the city since the 1960s.

The pike was built along an existing RR ROW in those areas, right?. That is hardly the same as bulldozing entire neighborhoods.

 

[cozzyd]

And if the original ROW were intact, there probably would already be rapid transit along the Worcester line.

 

[underground]

Not sure where the yuppies are living in Allston and Brighton, but it's definitely not in the parts abutting the Pike.

 

[Ron Newman]

Much of the Pike is underground or covered by buildings in the Back Bay.

 

[davem]

Not sure where the yuppies are living in Allston and Brighton, but it's definitely not in the parts abutting the Pike.

Hey now, I'm looking at the Pike a block away from my bedroom window right now.

I guess I should be happy I'm not a yuppie?

 

[bigeman312]

Yeah-- the pike absolutely devastated kenmore square, the back bay, and much of allston brighton making it completely undesirable for every generation of yuppies that have moved to the city since the 1960s.

People live there in spite of the Pike, not because of it.

 

[underground]

@davem
Ha ha! Oops! Sorry, should have clarified that, yes, not being a Yuppie Mecca is a good thing.

 

[Matthew]

Allston's definitely suffered from the widening of the B&A ROW to build the Mass Pike extension.

What do you think the whole "Fix Cambridge Street" movement is about?

Allston's been bifurcated since the mid-60s and it was never resolved.

 

[davem]

Allston's definitely suffered from the widening of the B&A ROW to build the Mass Pike extension.

What do you think the whole "Fix Cambridge Street" movement is about?

Allston's been bifurcated since the mid-60s and it was never resolved.

In defense of the routing through A/B, the B&A was about the width it is today between Cambridge and Market Streets because of the yards and car shops. The issue is that AT Cambridge and Market Streets it narrowed down to four tracks or so, and that's where a lot of the demolition happened, especially around Market which was a little neighborhood in and of itself

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The pike was built along an existing RR ROW in those areas, right?. That is hardly the same as bulldozing entire neighborhoods.

Not when the Pru looked like this:

The Back Bay passenger yards and the conjoined yard tracks stretching back to a (much bigger) Beacon Park ate up the entire width of the Pike and then some. So, yes, it's correct that there was always a giant neighborhood-dividing gash there and that the presently ritzy areas got a whole lot ritzier when the land was reclaimed, choking steam engine smoke was replaced by somewhat less invasive car exhaust, and air rights eventually got built over.

But I'd hardly call the Pike inocuous. Chinatown, South End, and Huntington had blocks razed for co-mingled urban renewal. And starting at the western end of Lincoln St. all the way west to Auburndale the Pike-facing sides of every abutting street except Washington lost a row of buildings and it created a neighborhood-dividing gash where there wasn't one before. And pretty much ended Newton Corner as a tight-knit square by remaking it into rotary hell instead of a Y-shaped intersection and basically giving the Watertown trolleys a terminal illness they'd succumb to in 4 years flat by forcing them to circle the rotary wrong-way in the face of oncoming traffic. The damage disproportionately hit working-class residential and minority populations, just like every urban renewal project did. It was bitterly opposed out there, which is why the Pike Extension took so much longer to build than the original Pike to 128. It wasn't as thoroughly destructive as the other highways, but try telling that to the people of Newton and Allston who had to deal with the same effects. The planners definitely weren't humane to them.

 

[Matthew]

In defense of the routing through A/B, the B&A was about the width it is today between Cambridge and Market Streets because of the yards and car shops. The issue is that AT Cambridge and Market Streets it narrowed down to four tracks or so, and that's where a lot of the demolition happened, especially around Market which was a little neighborhood in and of itself

The B&A was definitely a wide gap, but the Pike extension took homes and reshaped streets. Compare Lincoln Street on old maps to today. The weird little hook it does, that didn't exist prior to the Pike. Instead, Mansfield Street connected directly to Cambridge Street, which itself had a much different character. The intersection of Cambridge and Harvard is the oldest urbanized part of Allston, but you would hardly know nowadays from the neglect.

 

[Ron Newman]

giving the Watertown trolleys a terminal illness they'd succumb to in 4 years flat by forcing them to circle the rotary wrong-way in the face of oncoming traffic

Why didn't the contraflow "lane" arrangement work for the trolleys? Seems like it would keep them out of most of the rotary's congestion --- and maybe it should even be revived for the current buses.

 

[whighlander]

I'm glad for the Big Dig and it's decent (if far from perfect) restoration of downtown neighborhoods, but wish that it wasn't exclusively the transit aspects that got shelved, delayed, and/or cut entirely. Red-Blue connection, North-South connection, GLX... they were all there originally. If not for the "car is king" mentality of the time those essential elements wouldn't have been considered expendable. I think if it was all happening today that the political will would exist to make sure they survived. I don't know what the ultimate cost saving was, but I'm sure it is many times less than these projects are going to cost now that they've been delayed. You can only do open heart surgery on a major city once or twice a century.

FatTony --No they were not there originally

They were shoehorned into the project by the agreement with between Mass DOT and the CLF.

That was one of two agreements which massively increased the cost of the Big Dig -- the other being the project labor agreement insuring no-strikes in exchange for Big Labor fatcats to flourish

As for highways chewing up the urban fabric -- it started long before the highways -- Cross Street was responsible for truncating the wharf buildings -- not the Central Artery

 

[whighlander]

Not when the Pru looked like this:

The Back Bay passenger yards and the conjoined yard tracks stretching back to a (much bigger) Beacon Park ate up the entire width of the Pike and then some. So, yes, it's correct that there was always a giant neighborhood-dividing gash there and that the presently ritzy areas got a whole lot ritzier when the land was reclaimed, choking steam engine smoke was replaced by somewhat less invasive car exhaust, and air rights eventually got built over.

But I'd hardly call the Pike inocuous. Chinatown, South End, and Huntington had blocks razed for co-mingled urban renewal. And starting at the western end of Lincoln St. all the way west to Auburndale the Pike-facing sides of every abutting street except Washington lost a row of buildings and it created a neighborhood-dividing gash where there wasn't one before. And pretty much ended Newton Corner as a tight-knit square by remaking it into rotary hell instead of a Y-shaped intersection and basically giving the Watertown trolleys a terminal illness they'd succumb to in 4 years flat by forcing them to circle the rotary wrong-way in the face of oncoming traffic. The damage disproportionately hit working-class residential and minority populations, just like every urban renewal project did. It was bitterly opposed out there, which is why the Pike Extension took so much longer to build than the original Pike to 128. It wasn't as thoroughly destructive as the other highways, but try telling that to the people of Newton and Allston who had to deal with the same effects. The planners definitely weren't humane to them.

F-Line that;s revisionist history ... Boston having been confined by water has always had to rebuild, re purpose, widen, straighten, level, fill, etc. There's a book or two on the topic and plenty of maps

As each new technology, economic engine, style of building, etc., came along -- the past accommodated or it succumbed and was buried, etc.

Thus we filled the inner harbor where the sailing ships tied-up and where hand carts carried off the goods and built offices -- meanwhile the newer bigger ships now tied up at former mud flats and trains carried off the goods

Now the even bigger ships have to tie up in a very few specialized locations with containers being transferred to trucks .. The old rail Fan Pier has in turn given way to offices and residences and the rail lines have given way to highways.

I doubt that in the Greater Boston Area that you will ever see the process depicted above in reverse

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

F-Line that;s revisionist history ... Boston having been confined by water has always had to rebuild, re purpose, widen, straighten, level, fill, etc. There's a book or two on the topic and plenty of maps

As each new technology, economic engine, style of building, etc., came along -- the past accommodated or it succumbed and was buried, etc.

Thus we filled the inner harbor where the sailing ships tied-up and where hand carts carried off the goods and built offices -- meanwhile the newer bigger ships now tied up at former mud flats and trains carried off the goods

Now the even bigger ships have to tie up in a very few specialized locations with containers being transferred to trucks .. The old rail Fan Pier has in turn given way to offices and residences and the rail lines have given way to highways.

I doubt that in the Greater Boston Area that you will ever see the process depicted above in reverse

What does this post have to do with the topic at hand? Are you making a point, or doing another off-topic Professor Whighlander riff?

 

[Equilibria]

And pretty much ended Newton Corner as a tight-knit square by remaking it into rotary hell instead of a Y-shaped intersection and basically giving the Watertown trolleys a terminal illness they'd succumb to in 4 years flat by forcing them to circle the rotary wrong-way in the face of oncoming traffic. The damage disproportionately hit working-class residential and minority populations, just like every urban renewal project did. It was bitterly opposed out there, which is why the Pike Extension took so much longer to build than the original Pike to 128. It wasn't as thoroughly destructive as the other highways, but try telling that to the people of Newton and Allston who had to deal with the same effects. The planners definitely weren't humane to them.

For a sense of the difference the Turnpike construction made, look at the gashes made by the current D branch of the Green Line in Newton, the Lowell Line in Medford where GLX is going, the Fitchburg Line in Cambridge, etc. a trench for 2-4 tracks of rail is absolutely nothing compared to the gash made by an 8-lane freeway. Yes, fewer buildings were taken than for a new ROW, but the disruption was about the same.

Add to that the fact that the B&A had spawned a string of railroad suburbs, like Allston, Brighton, Newton Corner, Newtonville, Auburndale, etc. cutting a massive trench along the B&A pretty much cut the heart out of every neighborhood along the railroad, since they'd all been oriented toward their stations. Some, like Newtonville and West Newton, managed to re-orient themselves along other streets to keep their centers somewhat healthy. Others, like Newton Corner, Auburndale and Allston, failed to do so and lost much of their sense of place. Sure, they might still be neighborhoods and there might still be people and businesses there, but there's no hub of activity anymore.

Again, picture 8 lanes of highway along those other rail lines. Porter Square? Gone. Waltham Common? Gone. A project need not take homes to be catastrophic for the people who live along it.

 

[Charlie_mta]

F-Line that;s revisionist history ... Boston having been confined by water has always had to rebuild, re purpose, widen, straighten, level, fill, etc. There's a book or two on the topic and plenty of maps

As each new technology, economic engine, style of building, etc., came along -- the past accommodated or it succumbed and was buried, etc.

Thus we filled the inner harbor where the sailing ships tied-up and where hand carts carried off the goods and built offices -- meanwhile the newer bigger ships now tied up at former mud flats and trains carried off the goods

Now the even bigger ships have to tie up in a very few specialized locations with containers being transferred to trucks .. The old rail Fan Pier has in turn given way to offices and residences and the rail lines have given way to highways.

I doubt that in the Greater Boston Area that you will ever see the process depicted above in reverse

The historical filling in of marshes cannot be compared to the ripping out of neighborhoods for eight-lane expressways and ramps.

 

[Ron Newman]

I'd say that Allston still has very much a "sense of place", but its "hub of activity" is now around the Harvard and Brighton Ave intersection rather than at the old train station location.

 

[Matthew]

And in addition, the northern section basically split off into its own area, which for some folks feels closer to Harvard Square than what's now called Allston Village.