Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[GeneseeJunction]

Snagged a picture of the beautiful new A380 altar featuring BAW213 on Monday, last weekend's recent addition to the NLA wing.

Apologies for the raindrops in focus on the first image. Didn't have a proper camera with me.

 

[tysmith95]

I can't see your pics

 

[LH421]

3-4-3

Dont use United

While the 10 abreast high density configuration is only on a small subfleet of UA's for now, the industry globally has been heading in this direction and it's only a matter of time before they too embrace adding density. Their last (and only major) 777 reconfiguration was done 2009-2011 when they installed the now outgoing International Premium Travel Experience (IPTE) configuration. It surprised many of us in the industry that at that time they went to the trouble of going from 2-5-2 to 3-3-3 and not add an additional seat. With Polaris being added and a new very cost conscious suite of executives it's almost inevitable they will do so in the near term. Same for DL as their last major 777 mod was done in 2011 to match their original eight -200ER frames with the 10 new -200LRs that came with lie flat herringbone BusinessElite from the factory.

Give it time. This business is very metric driven, and adding additional seats, at least on paper lowers unit costs and presents an attractive revenue generating opportunity (although in certain markets adding seats may ultimately depress yields)

 

[kmp1284]

3-4-3

Dont use United

I wouldn't use United either as my allegiances are with BA and One World in general but the 777 is only used on one or two flights. The rest are 757s.

 

[adamh8297]

the previously announced bos-san jetblue mint route will launch December 10th of this year.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38...etblue-schedules-new-a321-mint-routes-in-w17/

A saturday St. Maarten flight will have MINT as well starting 11/4/17.

The new MINT flights are now bookable with today's JetBlue schedule release.

 

[adamh8297]

American Airlines will be cutting Boston-Buffalo at the end of the summer leaving JetBlue as the only operator..... for now.

Some talk on airliners.net that Rochester NY is begging for Boston service on JetBlue as well.

 

[tysmith95]

American Airlines will be cutting Boston-Buffalo at the end of the summer leaving JetBlue as the only operator..... for now.

Some talk on airliners.net that Rochester NY is begging for Boston service on JetBlue as well.

Not surprising. AA is cutting a lot of their gate space with the USAIR consolidation so non hub cities are being cut. I wouldn't even be shocked if they cut back on their shuttle service, it might not be as profitable as before now that Jetblue has entered the market. Also in 4 years Amtrak will start to get new trains which will increase competition for NYC bound travelers.

Delta will soon surpass AA and become the dominant legacy carrier at Logan. With Jetblue working hard to capture business travelers there is no reason why frequent fliers out of Boston would choose AA. Delta and Jetblue are much better options for frequent fliers and business travelers.

 

[kmp1284]

I don't think the Shuttle will be that adversely impacted by JetBlue. Most of those people are loyal American customers - many ExPlats and CKs. They aren't going to switch allegiances to an airline that for the most part doesn't meet their other travel needs.

 

[adamh8297]

I don't think the Shuttle will be that adversely impacted by JetBlue. Most of those people are loyal American customers - many ExPlats and CKs. They aren't going to switch allegiances to an airline that for the most part doesn't meet their other travel needs.

There are also corporate contracts that would prefer their employees use the airline with the best schedule.

 

[Jouhou]

I wouldn't use United either as my allegiances are with BA and One World in general but the 777 is only used on one or two flights. The rest are 757s.

Considering their horrendous PR, the presence of jetblue, etc no well informed passenger should be opting for United at this point. Don't encourage airlines to treat humans as cattle.

 

[tysmith95]

Considering their horrendous PR, the presence of jetblue, etc no well informed passenger should be opting for United at this point. Don't encourage airlines to treat humans as cattle.

I just go for the cheapest option (with baggage fees added in).

 

[JeffDowntown]

I just go for the cheapest option (with baggage fees added in).

Which is exactly why United can get away with this crap. Please try to be a bit more selective in your purchasing of air travel.

 

[FenwayResident]

I'm not trying to defend United - they clearly messed up here in a big way. But their policies and practices are not unique. This could have happened on any US airline. People get bumped off flights every day. What was unique about this situation is that a passenger resisted the practice (good for him!) and then got manhandled by the law enforcement authorities.

I've flown a lot on the US3, and in general I've had both terrible and great experiences on all of them. What it really comes down to is who is on the clock that day. Sometimes you get amazing staff and crew, other times you get a sourpuss who ruins your flight.

 

[kmp1284]

At least on Southwest the flight attendants would do a song and dance routine as the poor sap was dragged down the aisle.

 

[mass88]

I'm not trying to defend United - they clearly messed up here in a big way. But their policies and practices are not unique. This could have happened on any US airline. People get bumped off flights every day. What was unique about this situation is that a passenger resisted the practice (good for him!) and then got manhandled by the law enforcement authorities.

I've flown a lot on the US3, and in general I've had both terrible and great experiences on all of them. What it really comes down to is who is on the clock that day. Sometimes you get amazing staff and crew, other times you get a sourpuss who ruins your flight.

I don’t fly a ton (usually 4-5 times a year) and have never had any issues with UA, AA or DL. Then again I don’t have the largest sample size. I flew Virgin America (people seem to rave about them) for the first time this past Friday out to SFO and was not impressed at all. They apparently had a crew shortage and completely cancelled my 7:20 am flight. They sent an email out at 4 am to alert us to the cancellation and their customer service line was busy and severely understaffed. The best they could do for us was to send us out on a 4 pm flight the next day which to me is not acceptable at all (they did not even offer to book us on another airline). I can understand weather delays are out of their control and safety comes first, but this was a screw up by them. All United and JetBlue flights to SFO that day left on time. Also the Alaska/Sun Country/Virgin gates at Logan are atrocious.


Anyways, it will be interesting to see what DL has in the works for Boston next year once the Terminal B project is complete and Southwest moves over there to free up 4 (?) gates in A for Delta.

 

[LH421]

I'm not trying to defend United - they clearly messed up here in a big way. But their policies and practices are not unique. This could have happened on any US airline. People get bumped off flights every day. What was unique about this situation is that a passenger resisted the practice (good for him!) and then got manhandled by the law enforcement authorities.

I've flown a lot on the US3, and in general I've had both terrible and great experiences on all of them. What it really comes down to is who is on the clock that day. Sometimes you get amazing staff and crew, other times you get a sourpuss who ruins your flight.

Messed up in a big way? All procedures were followed by UA's personnel at O'Hare. They had an operational need to position four crewmembers of a United Express partner to SDF to support the operation of a flight the following morning. FAA required minimum rest and applicable collective bargaining agreements (CBAs) have certain requirements of the timing and conditions necessary. Volunteers were solicited to receive vouchers for future travel on United/United Express up to $1000, plus overnight accommodation and meal vouchers. No one volunteered, so UA had to involuntarily deny boarding to several passengers, which requires cold hard cash per the US DOT guidelines.

Said passenger refused to de-board the aircraft when directed by United personnel and later Chicago Airport police and was forcibly removed. As someone who works in the industry and has directly worked for two carriers, the traveling public and media are generally clueless about how airlines operate and actually make money. Airlines are easy targets for the media and consumer groups. That said, UA desperately needs better social media personnel. Telling the traveling public over social media that the contract of carriage allows them to deny boarding to someone who is insubordinate and could be a liability is asking for confrontation.

 

[JumboBuc]

^ This incident is being discussed over in the Open Thread

 

[FenwayResident]

Messed up in a big way? All procedures were followed by UA's personnel at O'Hare. They had an operational need to position four crewmembers of a United Express partner to SDF to support the operation of a flight the following morning. FAA required minimum rest and applicable collective bargaining agreements (CBAs) have certain requirements of the timing and conditions necessary. Volunteers were solicited to receive vouchers for future travel on United/United Express up to $1000, plus overnight accommodation and meal vouchers. No one volunteered, so UA had to involuntarily deny boarding to several passengers, which requires cold hard cash per the US DOT guidelines.

Said passenger refused to de-board the aircraft when directed by United personnel and later Chicago Airport police and was forcibly removed. As someone who works in the industry and has directly worked for two carriers, the traveling public and media are generally clueless about how airlines operate and actually make money. Airlines are easy targets for the media and consumer groups. That said, UA desperately needs better social media personnel. Telling the traveling public over social media that the contract of carriage allows them to deny boarding to someone who is insubordinate and could be a liability is asking for confrontation.

"All procedures were followed" and yet UA is in this mess after a 69 year old customer got knocked unconscious on their plane. Maybe there is something wrong with the procedures then? I've noticed a tendency for airline employees, in person and online, to hide behind procedures as a shield when anything goes wrong.

There are numerous ways this could have been prevented:

1) Keep offering more money until someone bites. At some point someone will think it's worthwhile to give up their seat. Let the free market dictate how much it's worth. However, numerous eye witness accounts state that UA offered $800 (not $1000) ONCE and then started to IDB people. A passenger even offered to give up his seat for $1600 but was refused. So, put another way, for $1600 UA could have avoided this whole mess. That's a huge mess up.

2) Fly the crew somewhere close to Louisville and then drive them the rest of the way in a cab/van/bus. There are numerous airports within a 1-2 hour drive that had flights leaving O'hare later that day, per airliners.net. This would take some coordination and a bit more $$$ - I can see why the gate agent would much rather call the cops than try to work it out.

3) Cancel/delay the next day's flight until they can get crew for it. It sucks for those passengers, but it is UA's responsibility to have crew for its flights, not the poor doctor who got knocked unconscious.

 

[LH421]

"All procedures were followed" and yet UA is in this mess after a 69 year old customer got knocked unconscious on their plane. Maybe there is something wrong with the procedures then? I've noticed a tendency for airline employees, in person and online, to hide behind procedures as a shield when anything goes wrong.

There are numerous ways this could have been prevented:

1) Keep offering more money until someone bites. At some point someone will think it's worthwhile to give up their seat. Let the free market dictate how much it's worth. However, numerous eye witness accounts state that UA offered $800 (not $1000) ONCE and then started to IDB people. A passenger even offered to give up his seat for $1600 but was refused. So, put another way, for $1600 UA could have avoided this whole mess. That's a huge mess up.

2) Fly the crew somewhere close to Louisville and then drive them the rest of the way in a cab/van/bus. There are numerous airports within a 1-2 hour drive that had flights leaving O'hare later that day, per airliners.net. This would take some coordination and a bit more $$$ - I can see why the gate agent would much rather call the cops than try to work it out.

3) Cancel/delay the next day's flight until they can get crew for it. It sucks for those passengers, but it is UA's responsibility to have crew for its flights, not the poor doctor who got knocked unconscious.

I understand your point on employees justifying things with procedures but that is not the case here.

(1) How much should UA offer up to? In most cases especially over $500, discretionary leisure travelers will happily stay behind and enjoy being hotel, wined and dined by UA. Apparently there weren't any on this flight and everyone had to get to Louisville for some reason. Take it up with the US DOT, they establish the IDB guidelines which UA adhered to.

(2) Again, there are FAA minimum rest requirements, plus restrictions above and beyond these levels in the Republic CBAs. Given the time of day and flight loads over the weekend an alternative airport likely would not have been feasible. Operations and crew scheduling for Republic (someone sitting in an office near Indianapolis) made that determination-not the UA personnel on hand. The UA agents and even management-certainly at the station level-aren't empowered to unilaterally make such decisions.

(3) Delaying or cancelling the flight costs money, and it would inconvenience a plane full of people plus have downstream impact on operations the following day. If the passenger had complied with PCE agent's directions and then de-boarded the aircraft when asked by Chicago Airport Police, none of this would have happened.

This is beyond the scope of this thread and there is an alternative forum if we must continue this line of discussion. Again, the traveling public and media especially are often unaware of how carriers actually operate, make operational decisions, and (try to) make money.

 

[jass]

I started hating United after taking a flight from San Diego to Newark.

5-6 hour flight time on a new plane.

• 
  Rock hard seats, less comfortable than the red line
  Minimal legroom
  ZERO entertainment options
  1. No overhead movies
  2. No seat back movies
  3. No armrest radio
  No power outlets
  No free snacks or food

These days United competes with Spirit and Frontier.