Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[Oakley]

Nice layout of the cities, aircraft and dates.

However, I don't see Emirates entering Detroit, Atlanta, Calgary, Cancouver and Montreal before Boston. Dulles already has solid service to the Middle East with Qatar to Doha, Saudia Arabian Airlines to Jeddah and United to Kuwait, Bahrain, Doha (to begin in 2012) and Dubai. The main allure of Emirates is to be a hub for travel to/from Asia, especially India.

Calgary can't even support a flight to Frankfurt on Lufthansa.

Emirates will not go to Canada anytime soon, outside of the 3 weekly flights to Toronto. The UAE-Canada only allows for three flights per week (two carriers per country) between each country. That isn't going to change anytime, as Canada and the UAE have had rather public spats over it.

Calgary *could* work, as it would connect two oil and gas hubs, which are rather lucrative, premium-paying segments.

 

[mass88]

Emirates will not go to Canada anytime soon, outside of the 3 weekly flights to Toronto. The UAE-Canada only allows for three flights per week (two carriers per country) between each country. That isn't going to change anytime, as Canada and the UAE have had rather public spats over it.

Calgary *could* work, as it would connect two oil and gas hubs, which are rather lucrative, premium-paying segments.

A very good point to mention, and one I forgot to mention. Canada has been a pain for Emirates and their expansion plans to Canada.

There is an article on Boston.com about the expected record passenger numbers for Logan this year. 2011 should be the highest ever.

http://www.boston.com/business/arti...t_record_with_288_million_passengers_in_2011/

 

[erikyow]

I think a lot of people tend to overlook Boston as an international destination. However, I think, whether for government regulation, size or existing competition, the only cities that I think realistically have a better chance of being started before Boston are Miami and Chicago. The Canadian cities are out for now because, as pointed out, of the highly public dispute between the Canadian and Emirati governments. Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party were reelected in May, this time with a majority government, which means you probably won't see any change on this until at least 2015. Washington DC, as also mentioned, has a lot of existing competition, both in the form of European airlines, as well as United and other Middle Eastern airlines to the region. All other cities on the list either have existing flights or don't really have the market. For instance, Detroit has a massive Arab population but it's largely low-yielding and is currently served in part by Royal Jordanian.

In addition, Boston has its own merits. There are strong links between wealthy Middle Eastern and expat families and the education sector in the region. Furthermore, the financial sector has considerable links to the region (believe it or not, not all things financial go through New York).

Furthermore, according to this data (http://alturl.com/jpts8), New England as a region has some of the highest rates of passport ownership in the country. Additionally, I recall seeing that New Englanders travel on average twice as much by plane as the average American. With the right marketing, Emirates can get the sweet spot of business, family tourism (South Asian travellers going home for a vacation) and travellers looking for a destination a bit more exotic than St. Thomas.

Lastly, while Boston doesn't have the largest population of Middle Eastern and Indians, it is sizeable. Consider that one of the reasons stated that Dallas and Seattle will be getting Emirates flights shortly is the large Indian populations in those cities. Boston's South Asian population is about 20% smaller than Dallas's and slightly larger than Seattle's. When I worked at BA, there were times of the year that Indian passengers would make up about 25% of our flights. I know Lufthansa was the same, if not even more so. Also, the tech industry has links to the region so the traffic isn't all low-yielding.

While it might not be the next destination served by Emirates, there are some valid reasons to believe that "Boston" has been thrown around more than once at offices in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Doha or Istanbul (Turkish is aggressively expanding to try to offer itself as another transit point and Boston has been named as a city they're targeting).

 

[JohnAKeith]

787's are coming to Boston next year, is this news or already discussed?

 

[Ron Newman]

Why does a tiny sheikdom's airline, rather than an Indian one, serve the US-India market?

 

[mass88]

787's are coming to Boston next year, is this news or already discussed?

It has been mentioned that JAL will be launching year round, non-stop Tokyo-Boston flights. This is easily the most significant route for Boston since non-stops to Europe.

Why does a tiny sheikdom's airline, rather than an Indian one, serve the US-India market?

Because the Indian airlines, Jet Airways and Air India, are not nearly as nice, or well funded as Emirates is. They have a larger fleet, a newer fleet, an overall better product and a larger network for the most part. Emirates is positioning Dubai as a massive airlines hub between the Middle East, Central Asia and the rest of the world. Their expansion over the last 5-6 years has been crazy.




I personally am not sold on Miami. People over on airliners.net, those being the ones that think Miami can do no wrong and any airline that flies there has the best loads and yields, believed Miami would come before Seattle or Dallas did.

 

[whighlander]

I think a lot of people tend to overlook Boston as an international destination. However, I think, whether for government regulation, size or existing competition, the only cities that I think realistically have a better chance of being started before Boston are Miami and Chicago....

In addition, Boston has its own merits. There are strong links between wealthy Middle Eastern and expat families and the education sector in the region. Furthermore, the financial sector has considerable links to the region (believe it or not, not all things financial go through New York).

Lastly, while Boston doesn't have the largest population of Middle Eastern and Indians, it is sizeable. ... Boston's South Asian population is about 20% smaller than Dallas's and slightly larger than Seattle's. When I worked at BA, there were times of the year that Indian passengers would make up about 25% of our flights. I know Lufthansa was the same, if not even more so. Also, the tech industry has links to the region so the traffic isn't all low-yielding.

While it might not be the next destination served by Emirates, there are some valid reasons to believe that "Boston" has been thrown around more than once at offices in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Doha or Istanbul (Turkish is aggressively expanding to try to offer itself as another transit point and Boston has been named as a city they're targeting).

Erik -- Boston is actually one of the globally most important financial assets management centers -- particularly with respect to mutual funds (invented here and still very important see Fidelity, Putnum, Welington ), custodiancy of assets (also invented here and very significant See State Street, BNY-Mellon) and private wealth management (very long tradition -- see Fiduciary Trust) less so with respect to investment banking and trading

Boston is particularly important to the Persian Gulf as much of their money is managed here through in effect private mutual funds such as United Gulf Management (Federal St.) a subsidiary of KIPCo (Kuwait Projects Company (Holding), popularly known as KIPCO)

there are also a quite a few people from the Persian Gulf who maintain houses, condos, summer homes, ski chalets, and such in New England -- perhaps so that they can be close to their money :=} LOL

Emirates would be a good fit to Boston

interestingly they've been running some commercials on the local TV channels

 

[Tombstoner]

Because the Indian airlines, Jet Airways and Air India, are not nearly as nice, or well funded as Emirates is.

More than "not nearly as nice," Air India is a basket case--originally planning to joing the Star Alliance, it has had to back out because it can't meet minimum standards. Very disgruntled staff. I flew them last month and it was very sad.

Jet Airways is in a better position and Kingfisher is going international big-time (though they are only now consolidating other routes thoughout Asia and London). Still, none of them have the ambitions of the Gulf airlines.

 

[erikyow]

Erik -- Boston is actually one of the globally most important financial assets management centers -- particularly with respect to mutual funds (invented here and still very important see Fidelity, Putnum, Welington ), custodiancy of assets (also invented here and very significant See State Street, BNY-Mellon) and private wealth management (very long tradition -- see Fiduciary Trust) less so with respect to investment banking and trading

Boston is particularly important to the Persian Gulf as much of their money is managed here through in effect private mutual funds such as United Gulf Management (Federal St.) a subsidiary of KIPCo (Kuwait Projects Company (Holding), popularly known as KIPCO)

there are also a quite a few people from the Persian Gulf who maintain houses, condos, summer homes, ski chalets, and such in New England -- perhaps so that they can be close to their money :=} LOL

Emirates would be a good fit to Boston

interestingly they've been running some commercials on the local TV channels

Agreed, a lot of people tend to overlook our burgh in favor of other destinations that typically have a more global (read: tourist-friendly) appeal. Many people don't realize how important a city Boston is in the financial sector; something that's only increasing now that almost all the major banks in New England are foreign-owned.

Ron, India-US flights are EXTREMELY price sensitive and, given the length of the flights, are therefore very hard to make money on. Emirates has carved out a niche by using its hub in Dubai to funnel passengers from around the globe onward to other places. It just so happens that for passengers starting in North America or Europe going to India, it's not that far out of the way for those people to make a stop in Dubai. Furthermore, India's airlines haven't been able to either spread their wings as far and as wide (pun not intended) as the Gulf carriers or, as in the case of Air India, are still saddled with the reputation of being a poorly-run, state airline. Ask almost anyone who has heard of Emirates or Etihad whether they'd prefer to fly them or Air India and your responses would be almost unanimously in favor of the first two.

In terms of Logan, the only way I could see an Indian carrier coming here is if Jet Airways starts a flight using their Brussels hub. In addition, since the demise of Sabena and the flash-in-the-pan existence of VG Airways, Boston has been without a nonstop to Brussels, one of the largest European markets without a nonstop flight. In my opinion, Jet Airways would be wise to start flights to Boston, but also market the flight amongst the business community as a reliable, comfortable way to get to Brussels. The albeit small but high-yielding business market is definitely there and would dovetail nicely with the lower-yielding leisure travellers to India who could provide the critical mass.

On a related note, American Airlines announced the cancellation of their Delhi route from Chicago. Long suspected of never having made a cent for AA, it proves that the market from the US to India is too far and too reliant on low-yield tickets to ever be very successful. This, in my opinion, makes the probability of Logan scoring a non-stop flight to India (if I'm not mistaken, this is on Massport's wish list) even less likely. When one of the largest airlines in one of the largest cities in the country with one of the largest Indian populations in the country can't support a flight, that says to me that Boston has a snowflake's chance in hell of getting a nonstop to India.

 

[whighlander]

Agreed, a lot of people tend to overlook our burgh in favor of other destinations that typically have a more global (read: tourist-friendly) appeal. Many people don't realize how important a city Boston is in the financial sector; something that's only increasing now that almost all the major banks in New England are foreign-owned..... Ron, India-US flights are EXTREMELY price sensitive and, given the length of the flights, are therefore very hard to make money on..... In terms of Logan, the only way I could see an Indian carrier coming here is if Jet Airways starts a flight using their Brussels hub. In addition, since the demise of Sabena and the flash-in-the-pan existence of VG Airways, Boston has been without a nonstop to Brussels, one of the largest European markets without a nonstop flight..... This, in my opinion, makes the probability of Logan scoring a non-stop flight to India (if I'm not mistaken, this is on Massport's wish list) even less likely. When one of the largest airlines in one of the largest cities in the country with one of the largest Indian populations in the country can't support a flight, that says to me that Boston has a snowflake's chance in hell of getting a nonstop to India.

Erik -- actually Boston does pretty well as a tourist destination as well as all the rest -- last year Faneuill Hall / Quincy Market rated as one of the major global tourist destinations -- 4th in US behind:

1. Times Square, New York City -- 37.6 million
2. The Las Vegas Strip, Nev.: -- 30 Million
3. National Mall and Memorial Parks, Washington, D.C. -- 25 million

4. Faneuil Hall Marketplace, Boston: -- 20 Million

and ahead of:

5. Disney World's Magic Kingdom, Lake Buena Vista, Fla.: -- 17.1 million
6. Disneyland Park, Anaheim, Calif.: -- 14.9 million
7. Fisherman's Wharf/Golden Gate National Recreation Area, San Francisco: -- 14.1 million
8. Niagara Falls, N.Y.: -- 12 million
9. Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tenn./N.C.: -- 9.04 million
10. Navy Pier, Chicago: -- 8.6 million


When it comes to getting to India -- Lufthansa offers a quite easy and pleasant routing with all the process happening in one terminal (I flew this route in August)

late evening BOS to FRA (7 hrs) -- late morning arrival
with 2+ hours layover in Frankfurt -- recommend that you buy a day pass in the Business Class Lounge if you are not a member
early afternoon FRA to DEL (7 hrs) + (+ 9.5 hours time change) ==> midnight arrival

Our return was not quite a efficient leaving Delhi for Munich in the morning and then MUC to BOS with a bit longer flights on both legs and a longer layover -- but then you are going home

Overall, unless i'm flying to the UK -- now I when I go east -- I fly Lufthansa through Frankfurt

 

[mass88]

India is a volume market and as such, does not produce the best yields. This hurts carriers even more thanks to the long stage length, especially for American carriers.

India is not the biggest hole in Boston flights. I think we need to get a stable connection to Central America back. The best candidate being Mexico City. If the Tokyo route works out and I think it will, then another Asia flight would be ideal. Perhaps Seoul or Beijing/Shanghai.

Europe is pretty well covered as Boston has year round non-stop flights to all the big markets, which is something few airports in North America can say. Given Logan is not a hub only shows how large and strong the market is from Boston.

 

[omaja]

I think we need to get a stable connection to Central America back. The best candidate being Mexico City.

Unfortunately I don't see this as very likely. Boston doesn't have the business or ethnic ties to Mexico City that would warrant a non-stop, bypassing EWR/JFK/IAD/ATL/MIA/DFW/IAH in the process. The hubs that handle BOS-MEX are also very good at handling Central and South American traffic from BOS.

If the Tokyo route works out and I think it will, then another Asia flight would be ideal. Perhaps Seoul or Beijing/Shanghai.

Agreed on Seoul, that is definitely in the cards with Korean Air's massive hub operation there. I don't think Beijing or Shanghai will happen for quite awhile, though; without a major intercontinental Chinese airline operating from either city, the connections are more efficiently handled via EWR/JFK/DTW/ORD.

Europe is pretty well covered as Boston has year round non-stop flights to all the big markets, which is something few airports in North America can say. Given Logan is not a hub only shows how large and strong the market is from Boston.

I could see the following additions in the future to round out BOS's European service coverage, if only seasonally:

American/British Airways to Manchester
American/Iberia to Barcelona
TAP Portugal to Lisbon
Air Berlin to Berlin and/or Dusseldorf
Alitalia resuming Milan
SAS to Copenhagen

 

[kmp1284]

Of those listed the only realistic opportunity is TAP to Lisbon. What I see down the road as far as European service is as follows

-TAP to Lisbon, seasonal at first becoming year round a la Munich.
-Brussels Airlines to you guessed it, Brussels, they have an ex-Swiss A330-200 coming soon
-British Airways, A318 to London City
-Delta takes over Air France's Paris service(one daily flight in winter, two in summer)

 

[whighlander]

Of those listed the only realistic opportunity is TAP to Lisbon. What I see down the road as far as European service is as follows

-TAP to Lisbon, seasonal at first becoming year round a la Munich.
-Brussels Airlines to you guessed it, Brussels, they have an ex-Swiss A330-200 coming soon
-British Airways, A318 to London City
-Delta takes over Air France's Paris service(one daily flight in winter, two in summer)

Kmp -- when the new Berlin International opens -- I think Air Berlin is going to be a very viable route

from the wiki

Berlin Brandenburg Airport (IATA: BER, ICAO: EDDB) (German: Flughafen Berlin Brandenburg Willy Brandt) is a new international airport under construction 18 kilometres (11 mi) south of central Berlin, the capital city of Germany. It is scheduled to open on 3 June 2012.

...will replace three airports in Berlin. Tempelhof Airport closed in 2008, Tegel Airport is scheduled to close in 2012....existing Berlin Schönefeld Airport will be closed in 2012
.... The newly built BER airport will inherit the current southern (then northern) runway. Due to noise-abatement regulations, flights between midnight and 5:00 a.m. are banned.

...The Berlin Brandenburg Airport will be a hub for Air Berlin, Germania, Easyjet, Germanwings, and Lufthansa. The initial capacity of the airport is designed to serve 30–50 million passengers. The two main operators, Air Berlin and Lufthansa, each will handle around 30% of the scheduled commercial flights.

Projections indicate the new airport will be the third busiest airport in Germany and thirteenth busiest in Europe in 2012. A major railway station built under the airport's check-in terminal will provide several connections within the region and will establish a direct link to the Berlin Hauptbahnhof... [and hence Euro-Rail connections]

Here's a site to look at the construction of what they call --- " Europe’s biggest airport construction site "
http://www.berlin-airport.de/EN/BER/ProjektAktuell/Details/index.html

Photo information
View from the south-west towards the BBI terminal. The structural parts of the new jetways along the main pier and the south pier are visible. The cranes are also busy on the site for the Airport City.
Photo/Graphic: Dirk Laubner 10.01.2011

 

[mass88]

Unfortunately I don't see this as very likely. Boston doesn't have the business or ethnic ties to Mexico City that would warrant a non-stop, bypassing EWR/JFK/IAD/ATL/MIA/DFW/IAH in the process. The hubs that handle BOS-MEX are also very good at handling Central and South American traffic from BOS.




Agreed on Seoul, that is definitely in the cards with Korean Air's massive hub operation there. I don't think Beijing or Shanghai will happen for quite awhile, though; without a major intercontinental Chinese airline operating from either city, the connections are more efficiently handled via EWR/JFK/DTW/ORD.



I could see the following additions in the future to round out BOS's European service coverage, if only seasonally:

American/British Airways to Manchester
American/Iberia to Barcelona
TAP Portugal to Lisbon
Air Berlin to Berlin and/or Dusseldorf
Alitalia resuming Milan
SAS to Copenhagen

As mentioned, the TAP flight to Lisbon is the most likely to happen out of these listed, followed by the Berlin flight. Manchester was flown previously by AA and was cut, along with Miami, although the Boston flight ran longer during the year than Miami did. Given the tough financial situation AA is in and the fact that they will probably be a leaner airline post bankruptcy, I don't see them adding anything out of Boston. BA has also cut down on the transcon flying ex Manchester too.

SAS is a long shot as well given that Boston already has year round, non-stop flights to Munich, Frankfurt and Zurich on partner airlines, so Star has solid offerings from Boston. Maybe on a seasonal basis, but not year round.

 

[omaja]

Comparing AA now (with the BA/IB joint venture and antitrust immunity) with the AA that flew BOS-MAN previously is apples to oranges. They have significantly more leverage in secondary markets between Spain/UK and the US now than they ever did. It isn't highly likely, but I wouldn't be knocked off my chair to see them try it again at some point.

Air Berlin service BOS-BER is very much possible, what with Air Berlin being the second largest German carrier with wishes of molding Berlin into an intercontinental hub.

I had forgotten about Brussels, though! That is a very probable future route for Brussels Airlines as well, good to note, kmp.

 

[kmp1284]

Comparing AA now (with the BA/IB joint venture and antitrust immunity) with the AA that flew BOS-MAN previously is apples to oranges. They have significantly more leverage in secondary markets between Spain/UK and the US now than they ever did. It isn't highly likely, but I wouldn't be knocked off my chair to see them try it again at some point.

I wouldn't count on it. American has thrown in the towel on Logan. Once JetBlue starting expanding and eating away at the legacy carriers' yields they cut and run. The American that flew MAN(and SNN, and a lot of other places) still had a substantial commitment to Boston. If you look at their offerings today, it's quite clear Boston is not a major part of their future plans.

 

[omaja]

Again, I agree it isn't highly likely. Though, again, the American that threw in the towel at Logan didn't have ATI and a joint venture with BA/IB.

 

[kmp1284]

Believe what you want but it isn't happening. I'd be surprised if they're still serving London in three years.

 

[mass88]

I wouldn't count on it. American has thrown in the towel on Logan. Once JetBlue starting expanding and eating away at the legacy carriers' yields they cut and run. The American that flew MAN(and SNN, and a lot of other places) still had a substantial commitment to Boston. If you look at their offerings today, it's quite clear Boston is not a major part of their future plans.

You realize American has shifted their entire strategy over the last several years right? This shift has seen them focusing on their biggest stations: Los Angeles, Chicago O'Hare, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Miami and New York. They have been cutting down on a lot of point to point flying and gutted San Juan. So cutting Boston down was bound to happen and it doesn't signal they could care less about the Boston market. Boston provides a TON of feed to Latin America through Miami for AA. If you are not one of the markets alluded to, then AA has zero plans for any kind of substantial future expansion.

American has cut Boston to where they see fit long term.


Yes JetBlue has come in a hurt yields, but that goes for all the legacies. JetBlue has been an amazing addition for Logan.