Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

There were no specifics given for the Philly flight just a "supposed" start date by a CEO who's known to throw destinations out there.

I will believe it when I can book it on kayak or ITA
 
kmp1284 said:
I would think. Philadelphia's not exactly a large international market in its own right.
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Considering it's only a smidgen smaller than BOS and its northern market area has significant overlap with EWR and JFK, PHL isn't anything to sneeze at. Along with EWR, PHL is the only other airport in the Northeast that serves as a seamless, omnidirectional domestic and international hub, something that more than makes up for any local market deficiencies it may have. US Airways has 475+ flights a day through PHL - more than United has through EWR! That is huge connectivity right there for Qatar to tap into the US market.

According to BTS, here are the top 25:

Total International Passengers - 2011 (full year 2012 not yet available)
23,464,018 New York (JFK)
17,555,807 Miami
16,116,533 Los Angeles
11,384,406 New York (EWR)
10,342,941 Chicago
9,375,617 Atlanta
8,694,499 San Francisco
8,399,344 Houston
6,267,231 Washington
5,208,221 Dallas/Fort Worth
3,957,640 Boston
3,783,428 Philadelphia
3,402,353 Fort Lauderdale
3,352,126 Orlando
3,026,128 Detroit
2,892,180 Seattle
2,809,388 Charlotte
2,531,956 Las Vegas
2,222,672 Minneapolis/Saint Paul
2,210,300 Phoenix
1,759,837 Denver
486,651 Portland
440,395 Baltimore
 
omaja said:
Considering it's only a smidgen smaller than BOS and its northern market area has significant overlap with EWR and JFK, PHL isn't anything to sneeze at. Along with EWR, PHL is the only other airport in the Northeast that serves as a seamless, omnidirectional domestic and international hub, something that more than makes up for any local market deficiencies it may have. US Airways has 475+ flights a day through PHL - more than United has through EWR! That is huge connectivity right there for Qatar to tap into the US market.

According to BTS, here are the top 25:

Total International Passengers - 2011 (full year 2012 not yet available)
23,464,018 New York (JFK)
17,555,807 Miami
16,116,533 Los Angeles
11,384,406 New York (EWR)
10,342,941 Chicago
9,375,617 Atlanta
8,694,499 San Francisco
8,399,344 Houston
6,267,231 Washington
5,208,221 Dallas/Fort Worth
3,957,640 Boston
3,783,428 Philadelphia
3,402,353 Fort Lauderdale
3,352,126 Orlando
3,026,128 Detroit
2,892,180 Seattle
2,809,388 Charlotte
2,531,956 Las Vegas
2,222,672 Minneapolis/Saint Paul
2,210,300 Phoenix
1,759,837 Denver
486,651 Portland
440,395 Baltimore
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Thanks for this! Its pretty impressive that BOS generates more international passengers despite not having robust hub feed--probably a tribute to our unique proximity to Europe (trips are easier, and Iceland is easily reachable by 757 or an A320) or to the power of our Academic, Financial Services, and Consulting local market.

Philly is the more natural hub (as you note) and I'd think it will always be "ahead" of us in its ability to attract long-and-thin flights.
 
I guess I shouldn't be but for some reason I am surprised that Miami is second and is above LA, Chicago and Atlanta. Obviously Miami dominates the Caribbean and Central and Southern America but I didn't realize that was enough to be millions ahead of Chicago and LA.
 
omaja said:
Considering it's only a smidgen smaller than BOS and its northern market area has significant overlap with EWR and JFK, PHL isn't anything to sneeze at. Along with EWR, PHL is the only other airport in the Northeast that serves as a seamless, omnidirectional domestic and international hub, something that more than makes up for any local market deficiencies it may have. US Airways has 475+ flights a day through PHL - more than United has through EWR! That is huge connectivity right there for Qatar to tap into the US market.

According to BTS, here are the top 25:

Total International Passengers - 2011 (full year 2012 not yet available)
23,464,018 New York (JFK)
17,555,807 Miami
16,116,533 Los Angeles
11,384,406 New York (EWR)
10,342,941 Chicago
9,375,617 Atlanta
8,694,499 San Francisco
8,399,344 Houston
6,267,231 Washington
5,208,221 Dallas/Fort Worth
3,957,640 Boston
3,783,428 Philadelphia
3,402,353 Fort Lauderdale
3,352,126 Orlando
3,026,128 Detroit
2,892,180 Seattle
2,809,388 Charlotte
2,531,956 Las Vegas
2,222,672 Minneapolis/Saint Paul
2,210,300 Phoenix
1,759,837 Denver
486,651 Portland
440,395 Baltimore
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The issue with those numbers is that they provide for only the international arrivals and departures from a given airport. They don't represent the size of the market itself. With Boston, a high number of travelers connect at other airports within the United States and in the case of cities like Dallas and Philadelphia, the international departure numbers are boosted by their status as major hubs.

For a more accurate comparison of market size, it helps to use O & D data as opposed to international departures and arrivals.

1. New York, including Newark - 31,740,007
2. Miami, including Lauderdale and presumably Palm Beach - 15,019,583
3. Los Angeles - 14,959,390
4. San Francisco - 8,623,258
5. Chicago - 7,138,074
6. Washington D.C. - 5,830,893
7. Orlando - 5,440,701
8. Boston - 5,338,728
9. Las Vegas - 4,555,564
10. Honolulu - 4,125,734
11. Houston - 4,094,561
12. Atlanta - 3,297,233
13. Seattle - 2,748,861
14. Dallas - 2,740,805
15. Philadelphia - 2,124,256
16. Detroit - 1,962,761
17. Denver - 1,955,504
18. Minneapolis - 1,796,892
19. Phoenix - 1,764,038
20. San Diego - 1,339,268
21. Tampa - 1,274,049
22. Charlotte - 1,052,113
23. Portland - 955,170
24. Baltimore - 938,054
25. Raleigh - 799,703


BosDevelop said:
I guess I shouldn't be but for some reason I am surprised that Miami is second and is above LA, Chicago and Atlanta. Obviously Miami dominates the Caribbean and Central and Southern America but I didn't realize that was enough to be millions ahead of Chicago and LA.
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Miami's numbers to South America are nothing short of astronomical, plus it's a very strong market with Europe and Canada
 
Regarding Miami, keep in mind that it is a hub for American Airlines. I think today it is one of the only (if not the only) major US airports whose international passenger traffic exceeds its domestic passenger traffic. I recall reading last year that there were even a few months in 2012 when its monthly int'l numbers exceeded even JFK's.
 
The numbers I posted represent exclusively the local traffic, not what American connects through Miami. The hub undoubtedly stimulates local demand to a degree but the market is enormous on its own.
 
Miami is to South America what NYC is to Europe and Los Angeles is to Asia. Pick a market in South America and Miami will be in the top 3 for demand.
 
mass88 said:
Miami is to South America what NYC is to Europe and Los Angeles is to Asia. Pick a market in South America and Miami will be in the top 3 for demand.
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That should read more like Miami will be #1, except to Mexico.
 
kmp1284 said:
The issue with those numbers is that they provide for only the international arrivals and departures from a given airport. They don't represent the size of the market itself. With Boston, a high number of travelers connect at other airports within the United States and in the case of cities like Dallas and Philadelphia, the international departure numbers are boosted by their status as major hubs.

For a more accurate comparison of market size, it helps to use O & D data as opposed to international departures and arrivals.

1. New York, including Newark - 31,740,007
2. Miami, including Lauderdale and presumably Palm Beach - 15,019,583
3. Los Angeles - 14,959,390
4. San Francisco - 8,623,258
5. Chicago - 7,138,074
6. Washington D.C. - 5,830,893
7. Orlando - 5,440,701
8. Boston - 5,338,728
9. Las Vegas - 4,555,564
10. Honolulu - 4,125,734
11. Houston - 4,094,561
12. Atlanta - 3,297,233
13. Seattle - 2,748,861
14. Dallas - 2,740,805
15. Philadelphia - 2,124,256
16. Detroit - 1,962,761
17. Denver - 1,955,504
18. Minneapolis - 1,796,892
19. Phoenix - 1,764,038
20. San Diego - 1,339,268
21. Tampa - 1,274,049
22. Charlotte - 1,052,113
23. Portland - 955,170
24. Baltimore - 938,054
25. Raleigh - 799,703




Miami's numbers to South America are nothing short of astronomical, plus it's a very strong market with Europe and Canada
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Thanks, I was actually looking for O&D and didn't have any luck so settled on total passengers. It's certainly true for hubs like ATL, DFW, IAH and CLT that their international numbers tend to get skewed because of connections, but I have to think the main driver behind PHL's depressed O&D numbers is its proximity to NYC. It's just too large to be organically less than half the O&D Boston has.

Although now that I take a look at the numbers, it seems like something is off: comparing the O&D numbers to the total passengers would mean that NYC is over 90 percent local traffic? I know it's a massive market but to think that even with the huge operations by the likes of UA/AA/DL/B6, it only amounts to around three million connecting passengers, it doesn't seem to make sense. Similarly, it seems improbable that SFO is almost 100 percent O&D: 8,623,258 (O&D) vs. 8,694,499 (Total). Am I missing something?
 
I don't think NYC hurts Philadelphia as much as you think. There's certainly a bleed, but I wouldn't put it at more than 300,000 passengers per year. PHL still has non-stops and convenient one-stop flights to virtually all of its top 50 destinations. I'd say, to put it bluntly, the major force behind Philadelphia's low numbers is Philadelphia itself. It doesn't have the global clout and the global economic importance of Boston and more obviously its neighbors, DC and NY. It lacks the breadth and quality of institutions that have placed Boston on the map. Although a lot of great things have happened there in terms of development in the last ten years, Philadelphia is still very much a poor, down on its luck sort of place and generally that's the reputation Philly's earned throughout the world.

As for the second thing, what you're missing is that in the case of the O & D numbers not all of those passengers equate one for one with the international passenger totals. What I didn't include with the numbers is the percentage of O & D traffic that travels direct from the associated city. Since you mentioned San Francisco, I'll use that as an example. 79.3% of their O & D of 8,623,258 traveled to their destination direct, accounting for 6,838,244 international departures and arrivals. The remaining 1,856,255 international arrivals and departures represent connecting traffic from elsewhere within the US.
 
kmp1284 said:
I don't think NYC hurts Philadelphia as much as you think. There's certainly a bleed, but I wouldn't put it at more than 300,000 passengers per year. PHL still has non-stops and convenient one-stop flights to virtually all of its top 50 destinations. I'd say, to put it bluntly, the major force behind Philadelphia's low numbers is Philadelphia itself. It doesn't have the global clout and the global economic importance of Boston and more obviously its neighbors, DC and NY. It lacks the breadth and quality of institutions that have placed Boston on the map. Although a lot of great things have happened there in terms of development in the last ten years, Philadelphia is still very much a poor, down on its luck sort of place and generally that's the reputation Philly's earned throughout the world.

As for the second thing, what you're missing is that in the case of the O & D numbers not all of those passengers equate one for one with the international passenger totals. What I didn't include with the numbers is the percentage of O & D traffic that travels direct from the associated city. Since you mentioned San Francisco, I'll use that as an example. 79.3% of their O & D of 8,623,258 traveled to their destination direct, accounting for 6,838,244 international departures and arrivals. The remaining 1,856,255 international arrivals and departures represent connecting traffic from elsewhere within the US.
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It's EWR/Newark that steals the bleeding traffic too. I'd love to know how many people decide to drive 70 to 90 miles (depending where you are in the Philly metro area) to Newark. I'm willing to bet a theoretical executive who lives near Cherry Hill NJ is doing so or having a limo bring him/her there.

I think the telling number in comparing international traffic are the London numbers which are not that large from Philly for a metro area of its size.

PHL -152,030
BOS - 512,468

Doha isn't Dubai either - Qatar is going to fill this plane with a lot of low fare traffic to Indian Subcontinent with double connections for 95% of the passengers. They would be better going to MIA or BOS in my opinion.
 
I don't think Newark hurts PHL that much. When I said New York I should have specified Newark, obviously no one's going all the way to Kennedy. I could see making the drive to EWR in the absence of a non-stop where connecting elsewhere poses a major headache, situations where a large group is traveling and unable to be accommodated out of PHL or where the fare difference justifies the drive(which is 90 minutes on a good day and can be more like 2-3 hours). If you look at Philadelphia's top 25 destinations, you'll see that most are served direct and of the top 50, nearly all are reachable with a single layover.

One other thing with their "low" O & D numbers. If you compare the O & D figures with the MSA you'll see that Philadelphia, while on the low side, is not radically far off of similar cities.

On a basis of O & D international travelers relative to MSA population(2012 est.), this is how things work out:

1. Honolulu - 4.226
2. Miami - 2.606
3. Orlando - 2.447
4. Las Vegas - 2.277
5. San Francisco - 1.935
6. New York - 1.6
7. Boston - 1.15
8. Los Angeles - 1.146
9. Washington D.C. - 0.995
10. Seattle - 0.774
11. Chicago - 0.75
12. Denver - 0.739
13. Raleigh - 0.673
14. Houston - 0.663
15. Atlanta - 0.604
16. Minneapolis - 0.525
17. Charlotte - 0.458
18. Detroit - 0.457
19. Tampa - 0.448
20. San Diego - 0.422
21. Portland - 0.417
22. Dallas - 0.409
23. Phoenix - 0.407
24. Philadelphia - 0.353
25. Baltimore - 0.341
26. Cleveland - 0.278
27. St. Louis - 0.273
28. Pittsburgh - 0.265
29. Milwaukee - 0.196


For comparison purposes, I've added Pittsburgh, Cleveland, St. Louis and Milwaukee, four other cities with which I would compare Philadelphia's trajectory over the last fifty years.


adamh8297 said:
Doha isn't Dubai either - Qatar is going to fill this plane with a lot of low fare traffic to Indian Subcontinent with double connections for 95% of the passengers. They would be better going to MIA or BOS in my opinion.
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At the very least, they'd do well to start with a 787. Qatar's fleet isn't overly premium heavy but they're going to have a very hard time filling more than 20 or so J seats most days.


-----

And in other very tragic news, the British Airways lounges at Logan have lost their liquor license(hopefully just temporarily). Apparently some 17 year old kid was caught serving himself a cocktail.
 
Great stuff, kmp.

Massport has been very slow getting the passenger numbers out 2013 so far, will be interesting to see if 2013 can top 2012.
 
I wonder what Miami's ratio would be if the Cuban Embargo was lifted?
 
I can't even guess what the immediate surge would be like in terms of passenger numbers but should the embargo be lifted and regularly scheduled service commence I would have to believe it would be somewhere in Miami's top five destinations.
 
kmp1284 said:
I can't even guess what the immediate surge would be like in terms of passenger numbers but should the embargo be lifted and regularly scheduled service commence I would have to believe it would be somewhere in Miami's top five destinations.
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I'd expect it to be #1, like the old LON-PAR....until they build a Chunnel to Cuba.
 
Couple of follow up items.

1) Qatar has loaded Philly-Doha flights starting 4/1/14 so its for real.




adamh8297 said:
If they could get approvals to serve Caracas they would serve it tomorrow but I think their next destination will be Managua. Mexico City and Port-Au Prince to MIA/FLL are bigger markets but MEX is tied up in a US-Mexico bilateral agreement (Spirit may posess route authority) and Haiti may have a bureaucratic tie-up to start plus on airfield security issues.


Lima gave them their biggest market to South America that they weren't currently serving and was short enough to serve.
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2) Haiti is the next JetBlue destination. I'm wrong again!!!! :mad:

Jetblue announced Port-Au-Prince service today from FLL and JFK.
 
Busiest International Routes from Logan (December 2011-November 2012) [23][71] Rank Airport Passengers Change
2010/2011 Carriers
1 London (Heathrow), United Kingdom 1,060,000 00.5% American, British Airways, Delta, Virgin Atlantic
2 Frankfurt, Germany 530,000 00.1% Lufthansa
3 Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France 450,000 01.2% Air France, American, Delta
4 Toronto (Pearson), Canada 306,342 01.8% Air Canada, Delta
5 Amsterdam, Netherlands 288,360 00.4% Delta
6 Dublin, Ireland 225,405 08.9% Aer Lingus
7 Rome (Fiumicino), Italy 200,108 04.1% Alitalia
8 Munich, Germany 153,405 03.0% Lufthansa
9 Zurich, Switzerland 146,003 01.0% Swiss
10 Tokyo (Narita), Japan 126,576 00.0% Japan Airlines


Busiest International Routes from Philadelphia (Q4 2011–Q3 2012)[32] Rank Airport Passengers Carriers
1 London (Heathrow), United Kingdom 373,556 British Airways, US Airways
2 Frankfurt, Germany 331,599 Lufthansa, US Airways
3 Cancún, Mexico 251,922 Frontier, US Airways
4 Toronto (Pearson), Canada 234,540 Air Canada, US Airways
5 Montego Bay, Jamaica 216,613 Caribbean Airlines, US Airways
6 Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France 182,484 Delta Air Lines, US Airways
7 Rome (Fiumicino), Italy 167,528 US Airways
8 Munich, Germany 158,993 US Airways
9 Tel Aviv, Israel 158,288 US Airways
10 Manchester, United Kingdom 157,537 US Airways

Philadelphia's international numbers seem pretty anemic compared to Boston's International numbers! Boston does pretty damn good considering she doesn't have one airline that uses Logan as a hub like Atlanta (Delta), JFK (American, Delta), Washington Dulles (United/Continental), Dallas (American) Newark and Houston (Continental/United), Philly (US Air) etc.

btw, the percents in the boston figures represent changes up/down from previous year. Copied from Wiki.
 
The individual markets are quite a bit smaller though. Boston-London for example was around 510,000 in 2011, meaning over half of the traffic was connecting elsewhere at Heathrow.
 
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