Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

Is it just me or are the Copa ticket prices out of BOS really high? Some friends had recently considered flying out of BOS but found it was _much_ cheaper to fly out of JFK, also on Copa (even if it meant a 3-4 hour ride down there from the Boston area). They're flying through PTY on to GYE (Ecuador) and the price was $599 out of JFK vs $950 from BOS.

Maybe this is just the norm for these boutique BOS non-stop/long haul flights? Seems like they could actually fill the flights with somewhat cheaper ticket prices. And with the Massport incentives and marketing the ticket gouging doesn't seem right. From what I've heard the flights are only flying at 50-60% capacity (the PTY flights).


Its all about timing.

When did they try to book?

I just randomly checked a couple dates in June/July and they were the cheapest carrier in June and one of the cheapest in July around 730 roundtrip.

You cannot compare NYC and BOS its apples and oranges. They may have sold a bunch of cheap seats already.
 
Its all about timing.

When did they try to book?

I just randomly checked a couple dates in June/July and they were the cheapest carrier in June and one of the cheapest in July around 730 roundtrip.

You cannot compare NYC and BOS its apples and oranges. They may have sold a bunch of cheap seats already.

I'm sure they have some complex formula for ticket pricing and maximizing flight seating capacity but after 30 minutes of travel site searching I was unable to find any Copa flights f BOS to GYE for less than $886 (amongst various combinations between April and July). Seems like they could be doing better. Are their costs of doing business out of BOS really 60% higher than JFK? I can see a 15-20% price premium but 60% prices themselves out of the market and likely is why their planes are only half full leaving BOS.

Plus their BOS departure time is awful...950am? That means connecting passengers (which likely represent the bulk) will miss late morning/mid-day connections from PTY. A 500/530 AM departure would likely be attractive to many more passengers (getting them to their final destination the same day and without a long PTY layover).
 
^Interesting Panama/Copa discussion. A few questions:

1) Why would Logan be any major premium over JFK or other NYC airports- is that actually the case? Two lines of thinking I have: We don't have as much traffic, so logistically it should be easier and more reliable. We don't have as much flights, so we may have to cover similar fixed costs over a smaller base, but logan is still a big market airport in every sense of the word.

2) Are all the connections in Panama from a 10 am EST flight getting into deep LatAm post 8pm their time? That does seem like a lost day, but traveling to Brazil/Argentina kinda is direct too. Panama and Copa seem to be in a similar 'Icelandair' position, where you could have free 1 night connections then get an early flight onward to Brazil or wherever. Seems to work for Iceland, and would be a solid carrot for leisure travels to pay a bit more for Copa.
 
I'm sure they have some complex formula for ticket pricing and maximizing flight seating capacity but after 30 minutes of travel site searching I was unable to find any Copa flights f BOS to GYE for less than $886 (amongst various combinations between April and July). Seems like they could be doing better. Are their costs of doing business out of BOS really 60% higher than JFK? I can see a 15-20% price premium but 60% prices themselves out of the market and likely is why their planes are only half full leaving BOS.

Plus their BOS departure time is awful...950am? That means connecting passengers (which likely represent the bulk) will miss late morning/mid-day connections from PTY. A 500/530 AM departure would likely be attractive to many more passengers (getting them to their final destination the same day and without a long PTY layover).


Looked into this more and its not COPA to blame: Its the lack of air service to GYE in general. You are dealing with a duopoly for 1-stop service from Boston to Copa:

Copa: BOS-PTY-GYE

LAN Ecuador/American Airlines Partnership: BOS-JFK/MIA-GYE

The reason JFK is cheaper is that there is more competition nonstop and 1-stop as well.

Non-stop: TAME Ecuador and LAN Ecuador

1-stop American or LAN JFK-MIA/LIM-GYE,

1-stop Avianca JFK-BOG/CLO/SAL-GYE


EDIT: Checked the JFK prices for June 2014 6-10 day stay on ITA.matrix.com The non-stops out of JFK are super-expensive as well and Avianca is the low fare carrier on most days. Copa is just flat out forced to compete with them on this route.
 
Looked into this more and its not COPA to blame: Its the lack of air service to GYE in general. You are dealing with a duopoly for 1-stop service from Boston to Copa:

Copa: BOS-PTY-GYE

LAN Ecuador/American Airlines Partnership: BOS-JFK/MIA-GYE

The reason JFK is cheaper is that there is more competition nonstop and 1-stop as well.

Non-stop: TAME Ecuador and LAN Ecuador

1-stop American or LAN JFK-MIA/LIM-GYE,

1-stop Avianca JFK-BOG/CLO/SAL-GYE


EDIT: Checked the JFK prices for June 2014 6-10 day stay on ITA.matrix.com The non-stops out of JFK are super-expensive as well and Avianca is the low fare carrier on most days. Copa is just flat out forced to compete with them on this route.

Competition for 1-stop/connection routes comes in many forms. But setting the route competition aspect aside for a moment, isn't Copa more interested in simply filling all possible seats (even if at somewhat lower price/profit per seat)? I'm no economist, but it seems like letting seats go unsold isn't very profit maximizing.

Or maybe BOS doesn't really have enough traffic to LATAM just yet? So offering only a high price per seat could make sense if they only expect to get so many passengers per flight (ie, lower prices may not necessarily attract more passengers...though I doubt it). Copa's CEO made recent comments to the effect that the BOS-PTY route has been "meeting expectations" but hinted more growth was still needed.
 
^Interesting Panama/Copa discussion. A few questions:

1) Why would Logan be any major premium over JFK or other NYC airports- is that actually the case? Two lines of thinking I have: We don't have as much traffic, so logistically it should be easier and more reliable. We don't have as much flights, so we may have to cover similar fixed costs over a smaller base,

All BOS ground ops for Copa still operate in a competitive market environment and are likely similar to those found in NYC (food, fuel, hotels for crew). And I believe Massport fees to Copa have also likely been waived or significantly reduced (which would not be the case at NYC airports).

but logan is still a big market airport in every sense of the word..

It's big amongst non-hub airports for sure. But how much LATAM traffic originates from BOS? And what percent of that could be better served flying through PTY?

Would be interesting to see if there is any in-transit traffic to/from the PTY flights, perhaps passengers connecting on to European-bound flights. Geographically-speaking, it's probably the only international BOS flight where that could make sense for some passengers (even if an MIA or NYC connection would be much more likely). Not sure who Copa code-shares with.

2) Are all the connections in Panama from a 10 am EST flight getting into deep LatAm post 8pm their time? That does seem like a lost day, but traveling to Brazil/Argentina kinda is direct too. Panama and Copa seem to be in a similar 'Icelandair' position, where you could have free 1 night connections then get an early flight onward to Brazil or wherever. Seems to work for Iceland, and would be a solid carrot for leisure travels to pay a bit more for Copa.

I like your IcelandAir comparison. It could be a good way to market the PTY flights.

And yes, from what I've seen, the Copa flight leaves BOS relatively late, so by the time you get to PTY, you'll meet an extended layover with either needing to catch a late day or night flight to your destination or wait til the next morning. That makes for a very long door-to-door time. It'd make much more sense to have it leave BOS at 5am to get you to most LATAM destinations at least by the afternoon or early evening. I've done this to LATAM many times thru MIA or FLL and it makes for a much quicker overall travel day. That's why, I think for most, an MIA or FLL connection still beats the current Copa option thru PTY. A shame really.
 
Competition for 1-stop/connection routes comes in many forms.


But for BOS-GYE there are only 2 ways to travel 1-stop: Copa or LAN/American Airlines.

Compare it to BOS-BOG and Delta, United or United/Avianca via IAD, and even JetBlue are in the mix for offering 1-stop service.

BOS-LIM is a longer route and JetBlue's entrance on FLL-LIM has drastically lowered flights. I almost jumped on a Macchu Picchu tour with a 599 flight.

isn't Copa more interested in simply filling all possible seats (even if at somewhat lower price/profit per seat)? I'm no economist, but it seems like letting seats go unsold isn't very profit maximizing.

Or maybe BOS doesn't really have enough traffic to LATAM just yet? So offering only a high price per seat could make sense if they only expect to get so many passengers per flight (ie, lower prices may not necessarily attract more passengers...though I doubt it). Copa's CEO made recent comments to the effect that the BOS-PTY route has been "meeting expectations" but hinted more growth was still needed..


You are focusing on GYE.... There are some cheap fares on Copa: especially Lima and Santa Cruz Bolivia which are under 800. There intro fares last year were ridiculous too: sub $700 for most destinations in Brazil!!!!They also will have sales eventually. You just have to keep your eye on it.

Copa is also not a low fare carrier too (though their labor costs are low). They are not the Spirit Air of Latin America.

Finally, the Latin American traffic is there but AA's MIA hub is a formidable competitor and the merger with US makes it stronger.
 
You are focusing on GYE...
Finally, the Latin American traffic is there but AA's MIA hub is a formidable competitor and the merger with US makes it stronger.

Yes, after checking other routes, with similar itineraries, they seem more variable, whereas the BOS-PTY-GYE route seems less variable and higher priced. As you eluded to I did indeed find a few longer routes that are more variable and in some cases long but actually cheaper.

But wouldn't the higher priced PTY-GYE route also affect the NYC originating flights?

Two Copa itins I picked at random:

Dep May 8 - 5 nights:
BOS-PTY: $700
NYC-PTY: $580

Dep May 8 - 5 nights:
BOS-GYE: $907
NYC-GYE: $561 (crazy...longer route, cheaper price???)

I know I know...there are clearly a lot of variables to their seat pricing (route distance, how many seats have already been sold, etc).
 
I'm booking a trip to Tokyo this fall and noticed that Turkish has the cheapest fares by a wide margin (rounded to nearest $50):

$1100 - Turkish (via IST)
$1500 - Delta (via LAX)
$1450 - Emirates (via DXB)
$1800 - JAL (nonstop)

I was expecting JAL to be more expensive, but I certainly wasn't expecting $700. Of course the Turkish flight is awful - leave Boston at 11pm and get in at 11:30am + 2 days, for a total of 22.5 hours of travel time. The return is even worse - leaving NRT at 10:30pm and arriving in Boston at 5:30pm + 1 day, for a total travel time of 33 hours.

However at a $700 difference per ticket, I could see people opting for the awful schedule.
 
^^^ Maybe 1 in 50. That's a lot of lost/wasted time and productivity for $700.
 
^^^ Maybe 1 in 50. That's a lot of lost/wasted time and productivity for $700.

Yeah if they had a better connection on the return I would definitely consider a 22 hour trip over a 13 hour trip for $700, but the 33 hour return kills it. It'd be interesting to see if there are other Asian markets that Turkish serves that are way cheaper than JAL/Emirates/US Legacies. Perhaps they'd have better timing on the connections than the NRT flight.
 
I'm booking a trip to Tokyo this fall and noticed that Turkish has the cheapest fares by a wide margin (rounded to nearest $50):

$1100 - Turkish (via IST)
$1500 - Delta (via LAX)
$1450 - Emirates (via DXB)
$1800 - JAL (nonstop)

I was expecting JAL to be more expensive, but I certainly wasn't expecting $700. Of course the Turkish flight is awful - leave Boston at 11pm and get in at 11:30am + 2 days, for a total of 22.5 hours of travel time. The return is even worse - leaving NRT at 10:30pm and arriving in Boston at 5:30pm + 1 day, for a total travel time of 33 hours.

That's the price for saving 6-8 hours from a 1-stop.

What was United's fare for EWR and ORD???? Why not go through DTW instead of LAX? Don't discount using Air Canada through Toronto as well.

Also check fares to HND if you are going to Tokyo as well.


^^^ Maybe 1 in 50. That's a lot of lost/wasted time and productivity for $700.

I'd say 0 out of 50 business and maybe 3 out of 50 really desperate leisure passengers but if you wanted to knock out some items on the bucket list: i.e visit Istanbul/Dubai (get a free 3-day stopover on Turkish/Emirates on the way home) and Tokyo for a 10-14 day vacation, that's the way to do it.
 
That's the price for saving 6-8 hours from a 1-stop.

What was United's fare for EWR and ORD???? Why not go through DTW instead of LAX? Don't discount using Air Canada through Toronto as well.

Also check fares to HND if you are going to Tokyo as well.

For DL, the LAX flights had the best timing (for basically the same price), and the return would be from HND.

United came in at $1600-$1650 with a pretty good schedule through EWR/ORD/IAD, although ORD-NRT is on their 744 which I've heard doesn't have IFE, so I'd probably do EWR or IAD. However at that point I'd rather pay an extra $150-200 to go direct on JAL.
 
As amazing as it would be to have Cathay Pacific here, I don't see it happening until 2016 when they start getting their A350s. The 77W is probably too much plane to start the route, unless AA is indeed planning to build up Logan.
 
As amazing as it would be to have Cathay Pacific here, I don't see it happening until 2016 when they start getting their A350s. The 77W is probably too much plane to start the route, unless AA is indeed planning to build up Logan.

I agree though they would go 4 class (First, Biz, Premium Economy, Economy) setup which would result in a 275 seat plane. How many seats will their A359's have?

They would need to make sure they grab some BOS-PVG traffic as well.
Could there be a closer link with JetBlue coming as well?

Also - are there better options for Cathay in the US? Seattle? Miami?
 
In the case of Boston and a couple other JAL 787 routes, namely San Francisco, Frankfurt and Moscow, a four seat F cabin would probably work, along with a modest decrease in the number of J seats and some premium economy. Not that I have any expectation of the configuration changing, but creating a subfleet for a few specific routes like that can get hugely problematic when weather and mechanical issues interfere. When BA rolled out their new F product they naturally attempted to concentrate it on their most lucrative routes - New York, Hong Kong and Sao Paulo. When all was going smoothly it was fine but once things got out of whack they were subbing in old F left and right and it took them days to catch up. The old F product, which is still in use on about a third of their 747s, is a perfectly good product but it's not up to the same standard and it's not what those customers were expecting. Having seen plenty of equipment substitutions where people have been downgraded to a lower class or didn't get the product they expected, I can say it's not generally a good thing for an airline to get in the habit of doing. Usually seven out of ten people take the compensation and deal with it but there are always a few who will make a stink. Unfortunately, when it's a guy who flies paid F back and forth to London fifteen or twenty times a year, you kind of have to go out of your way to ensure that he remains a happy, loyal customer.

Japan Airlines announced that they are planning to put First Class aka JAL SKY SUITE in 787's in 2015. Let's see if it comes to Boston next year.

EDIT: See Slide 10 on the link.

http://press.jal.co.jp/en/bw_uploads/Medium Term Management plan Rolling Plan 2014(summary).pdf
 

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