Logan Flight Additions

HelloBostonHi

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Delta likes to talk the talk on Logan being a hub but I couldn't help but notice that even American carries more passengers through Logan still which surprised me... (Source: USDOT)

AirlinePassengersShare
JetBlue10,714,00032.21%
American6,288,00018.91%
Delta5,003,00015.04%
United3,819,00011.48%
Southwest2,629,0007.91%
Other4,805,00014.45%
 

Arlington

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
 

jass

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
Loyalty, and also people who are scared to try new things.

They also cut a lot of costs with their labor. IE, you might get a 100% Thai crew on your flight from Boston to the UK, which gets paid a whole lot less than a plane full of brits with 30 years seniority.

Ive flown Norwegian twice. Both times great flights. They do charge for most things, including drinks, but I think you get that included in premium class.
 

Arlington

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Loyalty, and also people who are scared to try new things.

They also cut a lot of costs with their labor. IE, you might get a 100% Thai crew on your flight from Boston to the UK, which gets paid a whole lot less than a plane full of brits with 30 years seniority.

Ive flown Norwegian twice. Both times great flights. They do charge for most things, including drinks, but I think you get that included in premium class.
This is a business trip, and while policy would be to not pay for business class, I easily made the case that for $1700 it was clearly the best value-for-money (productivity upon LON arrival)

But Microecon insists that the Majors should find a way to match the lower price *somehow* Maybe I was just buying on the "wrong" (for the Majors) end of the booking curve--at a "last minute" time when they judge that their loyalty-driven customers aren't going to shop around.

For me, with about 30k of travel for 2019 (but having split it equally between JetBlue and Delta) I'm an active flyer but nobody's elite. Meanwhile my DL super-elite boss is a DTW captive and is #3 on standby for an upgrade from Y to J.

If JetBlue had been in the market, I'd have flown them. If IcelandAir had offered JetBlue elite status for flying, I'd have flown them. Being not-loyal-enough, I'm looking forward to J on Norwegian, and will fly them for about the same reason that I fly EvenMoreSpace on JetBlue.
 

JeffDowntown

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My impression is that the majors are not really trying to capture the pure BOS => LON market. They are really marketing their network, so they want you when you go BOS => LHR => XXX (Or BOS => FRA => XXX), etc. And they have a lot of frequent fliers who will fill the seats for BOS => LON almost regardless the price.
 

jass

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But Microecon insists that the Majors should find a way to match the lower price *somehow* Maybe I was just buying on the "wrong" (for the Majors) end of the booking curve--at a "last minute" time when they judge that their loyalty-driven customers aren't going to shop around.
They have been. You can find ample AA/Iberia availability between NYC and Spain for ~$250 economy round-trip.

Just 5 years ago, $~500 would have been considered an exceptional deal.
 

Lrfox

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
I think the problem with this line of thinking is that it's not an apples to apples comparison . Norwegian's Premium is a premium economy product. Delta, British Airways, and Virgin are all currently flying very similar premium economy products between Boston and London. American likely will too when they start up next year. They're generally similarly priced to Norwegian's and often less. You can't really compare any of them to today's modern transatlantic business class which has lie flat seats and a much higher level of service. I agree that business class between Boston and London is often more expensive than it needs to be, but there's a reason premium economy seats are a good deal less expensive.

That said, I like Norwegian's Premium product and have flown it a handful of times myself. I don't think the lie-flat is necessary for the BOS-London trip as it's so short. By the time you complete the dinner service and they dim the cabin lights, you're only going to get 2 hours or so to sleep (assuming you can fall asleep right way) before they turn them back on and start the breakfast service. Frankly, I think the $1,700 is still a little high. Last time i flew Premium, I paid about $900 r/t. For me personally, it was worth the additional cost over a BA economy ticket which, at the time, was about $600. I'm doing BOS-LHR in January for $375. No way I would pay even the $900 for Norwegian Premium instead. It's not nearly a big enough improvement over the standard Major airline economy product to justify the cost.

Other reasons, apart from what's already been stated, FFs would choose their normal carrier over Norwegian include:
  • Airline stability - Norwegian is frequently in the headlines for their financial hardship. It would suck to have the airline go belly-up in the middle of a trip a la Thomas Cooke, Wow, Primera, etc.
  • Infrequent service - Norwegian's limited route network and infrequent service means fewer backup plans in case of an equipment problem/delay. If something is wrong with your flight, you could be stuck 24 hours or more. With a Major carrier like Delta, you have a litany of routing options (i.e. LHR-JFK-BOS, LHR-ATL-BOS, LHR-BOS on Virgin, etc) between Delta and Virgin if there's an issue with the direct flight.
  • Equipment change - Norwegian is notorious for swapping out planes for charter aircraft due to its small fleet size and maintenance needs. This often leads to ending up on an inferior product.
  • Consistent service - Norwegian is also notorious for not hiring the best or most experienced crews. Each flight can be different.
  • Mileage and status contributions (self explanatory)
  • Upgrade potential
  • Better lounge access (with all due respect, the No. 1 Lounge that comes with a Norwegian Premium ticket is often overcrowded and underwhelming).
 
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kmp1284

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
I haven’t flown them but it’s a bit of a stretch to call this business class. It looks like more of a premium economy experience with what passed for a business class seat twenty-five years ago. I don’t think Norwegian even attempts to spin it as such

Having said that and provided you don’t experience the operational issues Lrfox outlined it still beats economy.
 

Arlington

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I haven’t flown them but it’s a bit of a stretch to call this business class. It looks like more of a premium economy experience with what passed for a business class seat twenty-five years ago. I don’t think Norwegian even attempts to spin it as such
True. It is essentially Premium Economy or Business Class 1993 (or LH Business Class 1998)

Also, what would Norwegian substitute for a 787? Two 737s with a technical stop in the middle?

But as of right now for Sunday-Friday travel next week on VS/DL prices are "Main Cabin" ~$2700, Delight/Comfort, ~$2900~$3000, and Premium $3600 ~ $4000,

vs Norwegian's $1000 Economy and $1600 Premium
 
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Lrfox

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True. It is essentially Premium Economy or Business Class 1993 (or LH Business Class 1998)

Also, what would Norwegian substitute for a 787? Two 737s with a technical stop in the middle?

But as of right now for Sunday-Friday travel next week on VS/DL prices are "Main Cabin" ~$2700, Delight/Comfort, ~$2900~$3000, and Premium $3600 ~ $4000,

vs Norwegian's $1000 Economy and $1600 Premium
Norwegian’s 737s (800 and Max) can do BOS-LGW direct w/o a stop. But what they actually do when they need to sub is sub in leased aircraft like a330s, 777s, and even an a380 (in some instances out of JFK). The a330s and 777s in particular are high density charter layouts so you lose your premium economy seat and they’re not often inclined refund passengers the difference.

Based on the scenario you have for next week, I’d definitely go with Norwegian Premium given the price difference. It’s just important to remember you’re getting an entirely economy experience with a more comfortable seat.
 

atlantaden

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atlantaden

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Old news but have to compliment Massport's aggressive moves over the past decade to intice foreign flag carriers, as well as domestic international fliers, such as Delta, to fly overseas out of Logan.
 

Lrfox

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Cool article about airlines flying out of Logan. Any of you here that fly a lot on different airlines, agree with the rankings of the ones that fly out of Logan, or others like the top four, Air New Zealand #1, Singapore #2, All Nippon, #3, Quantas #4, that don't fly out of Logan.
I'm mostly in the economy cabin and I'd put JAL above Cathay and maybe on par with Emirates (though I believe Emirates has better premium cabins, I haven't flown in business or first on them yet). I'd put Korean ahead of Lufthansa and KLM too. In fact, I'd rather fly Swiss than Lufthansa if given the choice, but Swiss doesn't appear to have made the top 20. British Airways is probably skating by on the name. I don't think any of their cabins, service, or the experience on the ground warrant a top 20 ranking. My favorite is Singapore and I'll go out of my way to fly them. As far as domestic carriers go, I've never flown Alaska, though I hear great things (especially about their loyalty program). I agree that Delta is the best of the big American 3. They've come a long way. JetBlue is great for what it is, but I think when looking at the whole picture, it's easy to see why they aren't in the top 20 (lack of premium services, relatively small route network, etc.).
 

Lrfox

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Sure, let's turn a calm, public access point on the harbor front into a noise pollution playground for the rich. Nothing wrong with that idea.
Are taxiing seaplanes really that much louder than the ferries that already arrive/depart Long Wharf throughout the day? Most of those boats leave their engines engaged at relatively high RPM to keep secure against the dock as they load/unload rather than tying up. It's anything but a quiet process. I have a hard time imagining a taxiing Cessna Caravan (or whatever small plane Cape Air will use) being much more disruptive.
 

JeffDowntown

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Are taxiing seaplanes really that much louder than the ferries that already arrive/depart Long Wharf throughout the day? Most of those boats leave their engines engaged at relatively high RPM to keep secure against the dock as they load/unload rather than tying up. It's anything but a quiet process. I have a hard time imagining a taxiing Cessna Caravan (or whatever small plane Cape Air will use) being much more disruptive.
I am not so worried about taxiing as takeoff. I am assuming the seaplanes are not going to taxi out into the outer harbor for takeoff. Takeoff noise for a seaplane (even small ones) is in the 85 to 95 dB level. Pretty loud.
 

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