Lynnport (Former GE Gear Plant) | Lynn
- Thread starter alexander
- Start date
tangent
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,789
- Reaction score
- 68
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
DMUs to Salem was exactly my point. And on the other hand if you extend blue, but are just going to two stations already served by commuter rail then that isn't as big of a benefit as going with a new Station on the Lynn waterfront side of 1A.
So I would do both ultimately. DMUs to the existing Stations up to Salem ( making riverworks public) blue along the old ROW through Revere terminating at a large scale ~5 to 10 Billion redevelopment along the Lynn waterfront. But that is getting ahead of ourselves.
In direct relation to this development and the Lynn waterfront I think you also need to talk about a road way through or around riverworks from rt 107 to 1A that is more direct. Maybe a roadway along the saugus river. Or on the other side of GE. That should be in the planning conversation. Highway access remains important.
DMUs to Salem was exactly my point. And on the other hand if you extend blue, but are just going to two stations already served by commuter rail then that isn't as big of a benefit as going with a new Station on the Lynn waterfront side of 1A.
So I would do both ultimately. DMUs to the existing Stations up to Salem ( making riverworks public) blue along the old ROW through Revere terminating at a large scale ~5 to 10 Billion redevelopment along the Lynn waterfront. But that is getting ahead of ourselves.
In direct relation to this development and the Lynn waterfront I think you also need to talk about a road way through or around riverworks from rt 107 to 1A that is more direct. Maybe a roadway along the saugus river. Or on the other side of GE. That should be in the planning conversation. Highway access remains important.
tangent
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,789
- Reaction score
- 68
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Yes, I think if this new development complements the important work being done on the other side of the tracks and isn't seen as a model for dismantling and decommissioning the rest of the riverworks someday, then that would be ideal.
Either way it is exciting to see some movement on this location. But I think the more GE remains engaged in the planning process and the more they can bring together innovation companies into the mix the better.
Yes, I think if this new development complements the important work being done on the other side of the tracks and isn't seen as a model for dismantling and decommissioning the rest of the riverworks someday, then that would be ideal.
Either way it is exciting to see some movement on this location. But I think the more GE remains engaged in the planning process and the more they can bring together innovation companies into the mix the better.
stellarfun
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 5,690
- Reaction score
- 1,506
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Not many people who live in/near Lynn appear to use CR to work in Boston.
MBTA parking garage utilization
Braintree 99%
Alewife 95%
Wonderland 85%
North Leominster 85%
Route 128 75%
Quincy Adams 74%
Woodland 72%
Salem 59% (700 spaces, opened in 2014)
Beverly 52% (500 spaces, opened in 2014)
Lynn 21% (966 spaces, opened decades ago, after Great Lynn Fire)
Source:
http://www.salemnews.com/news/local...cle_63a1a233-6f07-5d32-b36a-13a93e24d343.html
CR. 2014 Inbound boardings
Salem 2122
Beverly 2058
Swampscott 884
Lynn 662
River Works 56
Where is the cost-benefit analysis of spending $x00,000,000 for a new mass transit extension to a place for which there seems to be little pent-up demand?
Not many people who live in/near Lynn appear to use CR to work in Boston.
MBTA parking garage utilization
Braintree 99%
Alewife 95%
Wonderland 85%
North Leominster 85%
Route 128 75%
Quincy Adams 74%
Woodland 72%
Salem 59% (700 spaces, opened in 2014)
Beverly 52% (500 spaces, opened in 2014)
Lynn 21% (966 spaces, opened decades ago, after Great Lynn Fire)
Source:
http://www.salemnews.com/news/local...cle_63a1a233-6f07-5d32-b36a-13a93e24d343.html
CR. 2014 Inbound boardings
Salem 2122
Beverly 2058
Swampscott 884
Lynn 662
River Works 56
Where is the cost-benefit analysis of spending $x00,000,000 for a new mass transit extension to a place for which there seems to be little pent-up demand?
CantabAmager
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2014
- Messages
- 216
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
The BRB&L ROW north through PoP is kaput, it's not coming back in any capacity. DMUs are a viable alternative, but it's willingly depriving Lynn of true rapid transit service. That's the difference, a 20 min headway on a DMU is going to milk some of the pretty decent walk-up density around Lynn Station, but that's it. An RT extension soaks up far more and soaks up all those bus riders that currently continue past the CR station for Wonderland. It's not me saying this, it's the MPO. Blue-Lynn is about as uncontroversial a project as it gets - it's been vetted since the goddamn 1920s and, to this day, remains a "high priority" project on the PMT.
We need to stop burying our heads in the sand with the "it's already served" idea - Blue-Lynn, GLX, OL-Rozzie/Reading, nigh-on every mass transit extension that features on the PMT and in planning documents are improvements in service, not new services. That's what Blue-Lynn is, it's a massive increase in the level of service for a dense, inner-core city that should've been hooked up to the RT network a century ago.
The BRB&L ROW north through PoP is kaput, it's not coming back in any capacity. DMUs are a viable alternative, but it's willingly depriving Lynn of true rapid transit service. That's the difference, a 20 min headway on a DMU is going to milk some of the pretty decent walk-up density around Lynn Station, but that's it. An RT extension soaks up far more and soaks up all those bus riders that currently continue past the CR station for Wonderland. It's not me saying this, it's the MPO. Blue-Lynn is about as uncontroversial a project as it gets - it's been vetted since the goddamn 1920s and, to this day, remains a "high priority" project on the PMT.
We need to stop burying our heads in the sand with the "it's already served" idea - Blue-Lynn, GLX, OL-Rozzie/Reading, nigh-on every mass transit extension that features on the PMT and in planning documents are improvements in service, not new services. That's what Blue-Lynn is, it's a massive increase in the level of service for a dense, inner-core city that should've been hooked up to the RT network a century ago.
CantabAmager
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2014
- Messages
- 216
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Wonderland is the second largest garage amongst all modes (just behind Alewife), where do you think those cars are coming from and where do you think the 3.5k transit users in Lynn are going? They aren't utilizing an intermittent CR, they're hopping the bus to Wonderland, along with most transit users in the southern North Shore. Those 700 that use the CR are only a fraction of what Lynn produces for transit everyday - the majority are using RT. Look at Revere, a city with ok RT connections, it's transit modal share is 26%, compared to Lynn's 9% - there's no reason to expect that Lynn's experience will be any different. I'd argue the impacts of RT are going to be greater considering the station in Lynn is better placed than any of the RT stops in Revere, Lynn is larger, and Lynn has been hollowed out by years of deindustrialization so that it's growth/housing capacity ceilings are some of the highest in the area.
MPO scoped out the project costs at $750mil for those interested, obviously we aren't assuming that's the real cost - but this isn't, or rather this shouldn't, be near as expensive as GLX. It's one station, two at most along a clean ROW. There will be expensive bridge work and environmental mitigation, but not on the scale of GLX. The hitch isn't Lynn's capacity to host RT (with it's density that isn't really in question) nor is it with the engineering, it's with Red-Blue. Blue-Lynn dumps a lot of people into a crowded transfer matrix, that's going to be the deal breaker.
Wonderland is the second largest garage amongst all modes (just behind Alewife), where do you think those cars are coming from and where do you think the 3.5k transit users in Lynn are going? They aren't utilizing an intermittent CR, they're hopping the bus to Wonderland, along with most transit users in the southern North Shore. Those 700 that use the CR are only a fraction of what Lynn produces for transit everyday - the majority are using RT. Look at Revere, a city with ok RT connections, it's transit modal share is 26%, compared to Lynn's 9% - there's no reason to expect that Lynn's experience will be any different. I'd argue the impacts of RT are going to be greater considering the station in Lynn is better placed than any of the RT stops in Revere, Lynn is larger, and Lynn has been hollowed out by years of deindustrialization so that it's growth/housing capacity ceilings are some of the highest in the area.
MPO scoped out the project costs at $750mil for those interested, obviously we aren't assuming that's the real cost - but this isn't, or rather this shouldn't, be near as expensive as GLX. It's one station, two at most along a clean ROW. There will be expensive bridge work and environmental mitigation, but not on the scale of GLX. The hitch isn't Lynn's capacity to host RT (with it's density that isn't really in question) nor is it with the engineering, it's with Red-Blue. Blue-Lynn dumps a lot of people into a crowded transfer matrix, that's going to be the deal breaker.
tangent
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,789
- Reaction score
- 68
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Yes, many potential Lynn commuter rail riders are going to Wonderland for more frequent service or over to the Swampscott station for a nicer station. With more frequent service either through DMUs or a blue line extension Lynn station would have many more riders. More frequent service would see fewer people at Wonderland, but that is probably offset by new residents from the upcoming new developments around Wonderland station, depending on the timing there.
Either way there are recent articles on the needed repairs at that garage and the perception that causes even though it is relatively safe.
50 people a day at the GE riverworks stop is really low though. That is going to be a tough sell for the state to put any taxpayer money into a Station upgrade. But since the train already stops there it isn't a new station and that should cut down on the red tape.
Yes, many potential Lynn commuter rail riders are going to Wonderland for more frequent service or over to the Swampscott station for a nicer station. With more frequent service either through DMUs or a blue line extension Lynn station would have many more riders. More frequent service would see fewer people at Wonderland, but that is probably offset by new residents from the upcoming new developments around Wonderland station, depending on the timing there.
Either way there are recent articles on the needed repairs at that garage and the perception that causes even though it is relatively safe.
50 people a day at the GE riverworks stop is really low though. That is going to be a tough sell for the state to put any taxpayer money into a Station upgrade. But since the train already stops there it isn't a new station and that should cut down on the red tape.
The EGE
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2013
- Messages
- 1,655
- Reaction score
- 4,206
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Currently the station is only open to GE employees, on a limited schedule. (That makes it less attractive - if your shift goes a bit long, you might wait a while for another train). That makes it tough to gauge actual demand.
Currently the station is only open to GE employees, on a limited schedule. (That makes it less attractive - if your shift goes a bit long, you might wait a while for another train). That makes it tough to gauge actual demand.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
And there is nothing around it. It is literally on the GE campus and you can't get anywhere from it. I'm honestly surprised that 56 GE employees actually use it!
And there is nothing around it. It is literally on the GE campus and you can't get anywhere from it. I'm honestly surprised that 56 GE employees actually use it!
underground
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2007
- Messages
- 2,390
- Reaction score
- 3
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Eventually, it could be the anchor of a nice neighborhood bordering GE and running down towards the water. The operative phrase though is "eventually." There's a ton of brownfield and environmental remediation that needs to happen first, as well as a lot of non-conforming uses that need to find their way elsewhere.
Eventually, it could be the anchor of a nice neighborhood bordering GE and running down towards the water. The operative phrase though is "eventually." There's a ton of brownfield and environmental remediation that needs to happen first, as well as a lot of non-conforming uses that need to find their way elsewhere.
tangent
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,789
- Reaction score
- 68
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
All the issues can be dealt with pretty easily if there is a large enough redevelopment. Things could come together quickly (or not). To me you simply start by making the station not limited to GE employees and go from there.
All the issues can be dealt with pretty easily if there is a large enough redevelopment. Things could come together quickly (or not). To me you simply start by making the station not limited to GE employees and go from there.
underground
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2007
- Messages
- 2,390
- Reaction score
- 3
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
The amount of environmental remediation alone is huge. There's a water treatment plant that would need to be moved, and before that was a treatment plant, it was a sewage treatment plant that was pumping waste into the ground. It's a super fund site without the super fund program. It's going to be a massive problem for whoever goes in there to redevelop.
Then there's the natural gas tank, and that's a whole other story.
The amount of environmental remediation alone is huge. There's a water treatment plant that would need to be moved, and before that was a treatment plant, it was a sewage treatment plant that was pumping waste into the ground. It's a super fund site without the super fund program. It's going to be a massive problem for whoever goes in there to redevelop.
Then there's the natural gas tank, and that's a whole other story.
tangent
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,789
- Reaction score
- 68
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
The natural gas tank is almost a mile away from the GE Gear Plant. Also the water treatment plant is likely going to stay where it is. The capped land fill is a problem, but that is on the other side of the Walmart and I doubt that is going anywhere anytime soon.
So we are realistically talking about the gear plant parcel, and the "Club Morgan" parcel across the way on the waterfront, plus hopefully the building 19 1/2 parcel for nearer term redevelopment.
You could/should see the state chip in some Park funds for a waterfront park for the entire stretch.
The natural gas tank is almost a mile away from the GE Gear Plant. Also the water treatment plant is likely going to stay where it is. The capped land fill is a problem, but that is on the other side of the Walmart and I doubt that is going anywhere anytime soon.
So we are realistically talking about the gear plant parcel, and the "Club Morgan" parcel across the way on the waterfront, plus hopefully the building 19 1/2 parcel for nearer term redevelopment.
You could/should see the state chip in some Park funds for a waterfront park for the entire stretch.
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
For who exactly? The new developers are going to focus on the Lynnway, not the godforsaken brownfields you want to build a park on. Assuming GE stays put (as it should), then you would have a park only accessible by employees on their lunch break. This is NOT "waterfront" property by any means, it's a polluted marsh which nobody wants to hangout at.
For who exactly? The new developers are going to focus on the Lynnway, not the godforsaken brownfields you want to build a park on. Assuming GE stays put (as it should), then you would have a park only accessible by employees on their lunch break. This is NOT "waterfront" property by any means, it's a polluted marsh which nobody wants to hangout at.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
That EXACT description applied to the Back Bay before it was filled in. The Back Bay was incredibly polluted due to damming. Look at the action taken and the world class neighborhood we enjoy now.
That EXACT description applied to the Back Bay before it was filled in. The Back Bay was incredibly polluted due to damming. Look at the action taken and the world class neighborhood we enjoy now.
TheBostonian
Active Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 348
- Reaction score
- 1
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Much of this waterfront is filled tidelands subject to the Public Waterfront Act. That means that non-water-dependent projects will require public amenities at the developer's expense, such as parkland and waterfront walkways. Also, if Lynn was serious about it, development in an area like this could be supported by state and federal brownfields, infrastructure, and park grants.
Much of this waterfront is filled tidelands subject to the Public Waterfront Act. That means that non-water-dependent projects will require public amenities at the developer's expense, such as parkland and waterfront walkways. Also, if Lynn was serious about it, development in an area like this could be supported by state and federal brownfields, infrastructure, and park grants.
underground
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2007
- Messages
- 2,390
- Reaction score
- 3
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
The Back Bay was filled with 19th Century trash. The Lynn Waterfront is a modern day industrial Super Fund site. It's not really the same thing.
The Back Bay was filled with 19th Century trash. The Lynn Waterfront is a modern day industrial Super Fund site. It's not really the same thing.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2012
- Messages
- 5,078
- Reaction score
- 1,658
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
It's legally impossible to do to Lynn what was done to the Back Bay. I see your point here, but massive land-fill projects are much much more difficult to get approved these days...
It's legally impossible to do to Lynn what was done to the Back Bay. I see your point here, but massive land-fill projects are much much more difficult to get approved these days...
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Both are challenges relative to their day.
Both are challenges relative to their day.
tangent
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,789
- Reaction score
- 68
Re: GE Gear Plant - Lynn
Going back to my Park comment. I was talking more about the harbor side across along the waterfront on the other side of Rt 1A. Not the Saugus River Marshlands immediately in front of the GE Gear Plant parcel. Anything more than a walking path set far back from the wetlands would be inappropriate there.
But as it was mentioned before, a walkway that went under the bridge and then went along the waterfront could follow the waterfront all the way up until the Gas Tank and provide for a very nice harbor walk. That is what could use some state grant funding. Better to lay out a harbor walk now than to try and retrofit it in segments during or after a development. There is already a fishing pier there and much of the harbor front is along the road (except for the part of the road that has fallen into the sea through disrepair.).
Going back to my Park comment. I was talking more about the harbor side across along the waterfront on the other side of Rt 1A. Not the Saugus River Marshlands immediately in front of the GE Gear Plant parcel. Anything more than a walking path set far back from the wetlands would be inappropriate there.
But as it was mentioned before, a walkway that went under the bridge and then went along the waterfront could follow the waterfront all the way up until the Gas Tank and provide for a very nice harbor walk. That is what could use some state grant funding. Better to lay out a harbor walk now than to try and retrofit it in segments during or after a development. There is already a fishing pier there and much of the harbor front is along the road (except for the part of the road that has fallen into the sea through disrepair.).