MA Casino Developments
- Thread starter TheRifleman
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Really? Mayor Curtatone shot down the offer of a pedestrian bridge?
I think we're going to need a source link on that one.
A ped bridge from Assembly to Wynn would have to thread its way below the CR bridge (which is a highly constrained arc) while being above any boat traffic (from the Winter Hill YC on the Smvl side, and the Mystic Wellington YC).
Given its constraints and high fixed cost, Wynn'd be crazy to have offered it.
Wynn can run shuttles back and forth all day to North Station or water taxis to Assembly for a teensy fraction of the cost (and way less risk)
JeffDowntown
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High Rollers don't take the T.
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That sounds right to me: Curtatone knows that the most useful thing Wynn can offer is cash.
Were the geometry different (and there not boaters to appease and a scary/loud/steep CR bridge to pass near beneath), a bridge might have been a win-win (more valuable than cash).
As it is Wynn will offer cash and Curtatone will take it, and Wynn will offer shuttles and limos, and his gamblers will gladly take them.
{EDIT and I'm sure Jeff is agreeing that of all the modes that high rollers might arrive-car, cab, uber, limo (comp'd by Wynn), or shuttled from their office-- hoofing it from Assembly isn't one of them. Wynn can chase a car-free clientele with lots of road modes and without building a bridge to Assembly.
Having the Blue Line at Suffolk Downs hasn't exactly made it the place to go when you're feeling rich, fancy, and lucky. Nor Wonderland. Didn't see many car-free hipsters at either, did we? }
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JeffDowntown
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I am agreeing that a pedestrian bridge to a T station is not happening.
Now funding a fleet of limos -- that is Wynn's style.
BosDevelop
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LOL at those who really think the target customers of this casino will be arriving any other way than by vehicle. The number of people arriving via public transpiration will be negligible. I am trying to think of a category of people who would take the train here and I am coming up short. Parking will be free and plentiful. I suppose if you had to get there from downtown at 5pm during the week, it would be an option worth considering.
fattony
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I'll start by saying that I don't think the casino needs a strong transit connection. But you can't claim that if one existed that customers wouldn't use it. The Harrah's in New Orleans has a streetcar that pulls up to the front door and people use it.
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Nah, even then Wynn would want to make sure that you and your work buddies keep your appointment, rather than drift out of work, onto the T and decide you'll just go home.
He'll encourage you (somehow) to schedule a pickup for you and your car-free work buddies in discounted transport. It might be expensive, and he might not do it all the time, but such targeted transportation has a way better payback for him if he knows you'll end up on his property (Casinos don't gamble) than building a public amenity where the users and outcomes are uncertain.
Limos are a way better "know your customer" tool for targeting gamblers (including these hypothetical rich-but-T-addicted folks) and making sure they arrive at the Casino than a bridge where he doesn't know who you are or whether you'll actually end up on site.
FenwayResident
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Young people with good jobs who live in the city and don't have a car? That's a pretty big demographic.
Obviously not as big as the millions of suburbanites in Metro Boston, but it's big enough to pay attention to. Personally I'd much rather take the T than a cab/uber if it's an option.
bigeman312
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This. Personally, I will take the T to the Casino and spend money there, if it's an option. If the T wasn't an option...it would be another reason not to go.
I think you're a little too high roller-focused. Yes, the proverbial "whale" will absolutely not be taking the Orange Line with us regular folk and then hoofing it over a long pedestrian bridge. I would be though. So would tourists staying in downtown hotels without rental cars. Also residents of Downtown and adjacent neighborhoods.
whighlander
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Bigeman -- there used to be a joke when I lived in Austin:
Question: what arrives with a jaguar and leaves with a dog
Answer: a Texan in Vegas [the dog refers to Greyhound Bus]
I suspect that if you are going to a casino with a few of your downtown guys and gals you just call for Uber and split the tab
Might be an issue on the way home however if your luck isn't so good -- perhaps you should have a designated ride-payer
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Please simply accept the fact that Wynn's business model does not require heavy-rail transit to be successful.
Is this hard to accept?
Sure, there are heavy-rail devotee's out there, but they are few and expensive to serve. Are you telling me that your "fancy suit" and "evening out" are so precisely calibrated that they would leap at an OL-to-Assembly-to-ped-bridge routing, but somehow be entirely hostile to a OL-to-Sullivan-to-Shuttle Bus (or 104, 105, or 109 bus)? Or a bus doing the last mile from North or South Station? C'mon.
Seems to me you are defining what modes "work" for a Casino waaay to narrowly solely for the purpose of imagining that Wynn should toss some commuter-peak infrastructure your way. The reality is that there are enough people--even transit enthusiasts and multi-modalists like me--who understand that some trips are special and not made by heavy rail.
Chasing these (few) heavy-rail purists with bridges would cost more than Wynn could ever expect to make back.
Some tourists might be 100% T-based when in Boston, but enough of them pay ~$30 each to ride on circulator "trolleys" to keep a whole lot of trolleys circulating. Or an Uber which will be a short/cheap/easy trip from all tourist hubs. While car-free, they are not heavy-rail purists. They're proven bus-users.
Its going to be way way cheaper for Wynn to slip a little extra cash to the current operators or start one of his own or indeed, use Uber-style tech to dispatch a shuttle to you wherever you are. You needn't be a high roller for him to give you a directed subsidiy if he's 100% sure you're coming to his property.
Or he'll just send a big black-and-bronzy VanHool bus to wherever car-free people congregate: BCEC, Hynes, Sheraton, Copley, Long Wharf. It isn't hard to predict, and a point-to-point bus has no risk that you'll wander to some other destination along the way. You're his captive from the moment you board his bus, and he'll pay a little extra for that (and still pay way less than the mortgage payment on a bridge across the Mystic or Malden river)
Meanwhile, why should we think a Casino needs/wants/serves heavy rail patrons any differently than the Chestnut Hill Mall or South Bay Center (had been for 15 years) or any Costco or Ikea or Home Depot? There are enough patrons who have cars, or who hire a bachelorette limo, or any of a myriad of shared (bus) modes that there just isn't enough $ at stake in the I'll-only-come-by-Heavy-Rail market to actually chase it with very expensive, very un-targeted heavy rail improvements.
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BosDevelop
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Your are in the minority. How much would be Uber or cab be split between 3 people? $5-$6 each? The only reason for casino patrons to ever take the T to the casino would be to avoid traffic (i.e. faster than vehicle transportation) and not that many people MUST arrive at the casino between 4:00-6:00PM during the week.
TheRifleman
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Wynn Business Model is based on what's best for Wynn. As for somebody that lives in the area that will have to deal with ongoing buses and traffic going to the casino---A Hard-rail would help make the area more transit friendly.
The area is a mess now early morning and weekend commutes. Factor a billion dollar casino now in the area.
65 Million in infrastructure upgrades is basically coffee money for the unions.
This is the most important aspect of the development and I think they should just move Sullivan Square stop and change it to the Wynn Casino Stop Location if possible.
JumboBuc
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How much would it cost to run a ferry shuttle service across the Mystic from Assembly to docks at the casino? That's gotta be way cheaper and easier than any pedestrian connection and it serves the same purpose.
I'd be pretty surprised if Wynn doesn't provide anything to connect his casino to the T.
I'd be pretty surprised if Wynn doesn't provide anything to connect his casino to the T.
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He definitely will put a whole range of shuttles out there on both sea and land. The beauty of shuttles is that they are demand-responsive. If nobody uses them, you redeploy them. If they're crushed with demand, he'll run more. You can't do that with infrastructure...not even his own structured parking, and certainly not with bridges and rail platforms.
Structured parking will cover "base load" and "valet"--He's not going to overbuild that kind of structure either.--and surges will likely involve some kind of shuttle/circulator. But if the garage fills too often, yes, the solution will be some mix of more structured parking and more shuttles.
My educated guess is that he'll run water taxis to "fun" locations like Assembly, North Station, and Charlestown, and Aquarium, but only in-season and at peak times. If he feels the need to shuttle from Sullivan, he'll probably have to build his own"fun" welcome/marketing terminal there (no way is he going to leave casino hopefuls carrying wads of cash mixing with Sullivan's curbside bus-patron crowds) Standing shoulder-to-shoulder with tired commuters would be too much of a buzzkill, and probably a magnet for petty crime.
I'll further say that since he can't afford structured parking for his hourly staff , he'll probably run an employee shuttle to a "sad" T station like Wellington or Sullivan. He's not GM building an autopia, he just wants to make getting there cheap and easy. That's definitely a "bus" kinda thing.
Since he also can't afford structured parking for "surge crowds" (for concerts) he'll run a whole 'nother set of patron-only shuttles to some "high-end" transport node where people who are "feeling rich" can mix comfortably, like North Station, Charles-MGH, (Liberty Hotel), or Kendall (the Marriott?), or Long Wharf, or Back Bay Hotels or the BCEC. There will be PLENTY of car-free alternatives, but the capacity-flexible kind that can seek out patrons with laser-like focus: bus/uber/limo
bigeman312
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Maybe so, but you may not be coming from the same place, or going to the same place afterwards. I may be in the minority, but not a negligible subset of people who are employed, young, urban, choose to ride the T, and would go to the casino for fun on occasion.
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Dude, Hong Kong loves its rail with a passion too, but Wynn Macau "works" entirely on shuttle bus, water craft and helicopters. He's not putting you down because you ride the T, he's just telling you that you'll have to get on his (free) bus. He loves you. He just can't afford your rail addiction.
Check out Wynn Macau's dense network of shuttle buses:
http://www.wynnmacau.com/en/aboutus/directions.html He's got a fleet of 8 buses (probl $200k each) out on the streets for 14 hours a day (note to Rifleman...note that his buses don't start running until 9am and 10am...i.e.,after the worst of the AM rush has past). Even then, that's only $2m that he's laid out for bus fleet (call it 8+2 spares) compared to 5x or 50x that folks around here'd be talking for their dreams of heavy bridges and stations *that would actually serve FEWER patrons* than his buses
Ground and (nearby) Ferry Terminal
15 to 20 minute headways on trips taking 10 to 15 minutes.
Airport and (more distant)Ferry Terminal Services:
20 to 35 minute headways on trips taking ~30 miutes
Kicks the ass of every MBTA bus route except the "key" ones, and most harbor transport (and is free)
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