Manchester Infill & Small Developments

The is a little blurb in the Union Leader about a 'hospital-hotel' at the new Elliot at River's Edge today. There really isn't any information but it will be something to keep an eye on.

Interesting--good to hear of two separate projects along the riverfront. I'll try to have my dad hold onto the print copy of the story so I can get some more info next time I'm home. I really hope it's done well and as part of a larger plan--the Elliot is a great start, and the Rivers Edge area could become a great place if it's developed in a smart, urban manner.
 
I may sounds like a broken record, and I think we can all agree, even the city, yet I see little being done. There needs to be a better connection to the riverfront (on both southern Elm near the new hospital and in the mills area, especially the mills) and a better connection or path along the riverfront, ie. a completed river front walkway (and I hope bikes would be aloud too with appropriate amenities) with entry to the b-ball field, apartments, and mills with hopefully new retail and restaurants along the walkway. Until this is done, and I mean completed so one can use the entire walkway actually as a way to get around, I feel that although great, and possibly needed to complete this, all new development and existing development, and the city as a whole, are missing benefits from a potentially attractive and economic beneficial walkway / recreational trail. And in tun it will make the city all that much more appealing to its residents.

But this project does look good. Hospitals provide much needed jobs to us US citizens.
 
I may sounds like a broken record, and I think we can all agree, even the city, yet I see little being done. There needs to be a better connection to the riverfront (on both southern Elm near the new hospital and in the mills area, especially the mills) and a better connection or path along the riverfront, ie. a completed river front walkway (and I hope bikes would be aloud too with appropriate amenities) with entry to the b-ball field, apartments, and mills with hopefully new retail and restaurants along the walkway. Until this is done, and I mean completed so one can use the entire walkway actually as a way to get around, I feel that although great, and possibly needed to complete this, all new development and existing development, and the city as a whole, are missing benefits from a potentially attractive and economic beneficial walkway / recreational trail. And in tun it will make the city all that much more appealing to its residents.

But this project does look good. Hospitals provide much needed jobs to us US citizens.

No problem repeating it--you're right. It seems like the trail south of Granite Street or at least the ballpark is in pretty good shape, and what it needs now is development to bring people to it. I think the whole area between Granite St and Queen City Ave, and between the river and Elm St should be looked at in a master plan so that development going forward is driven by some sort of vision as opposed to what I see now: some good and some bad development, maybe connected to the Riverwalk.

Where the Riverwalk really needs work, and where the city will benefit the most from it, I think, is along the Millyard, though. If some apartments and more restaurants went into the Millyard, I think it would make the area much livelier, especially at night, and the Riverwalk should be a big part in that.
 
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20110820/NEWS02/708209977/-1/news02

Sad to hear, didn't even know there was a duck tour this summer in Manch.

And...

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20110820/NEWS06/708209987/-1/news02

Yet another project that lies basically outside the city in a nice non developed area (what is wrong) but better to see development than none. Is it? As the business park up north, so much unused vacant, or poorly used land in the inner city and yet forests, and fields are being developed.

New Dunkin Donuts too on corner of Page and Hanover. Cape Cod style rather than traditional. I surprisingly like this since the area feels more residential and is next to a school.
 
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20110820/NEWS02/708209977/-1/news02

Sad to hear, didn't even know there was a duck tour this summer in Manch.

And...

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20110820/NEWS06/708209987/-1/news02

Yet another project that lies basically outside the city in a nice non developed area (what is wrong) but better to see development than none. Is it? As the business park up north, so much unused vacant, or poorly used land in the inner city and yet forests, and fields are being developed.

New Dunkin Donuts too on corner of Page and Hanover. Cape Cod style rather than traditional. I surprisingly like this since the area feels more residential and is next to a school.

I'd prefer to see the Job Corps center somewhere in town, though I do like the architecture. For anyone who hasn't seen it, there's a PDF with an info on the campus on MEDO's website.

The site of that Dunkin Donuts isn't particularly important, but it is disappointing to read that there had been a proposal for a "two-story shopping center" there. Something like that, fronting Page & Hanover Streets, with shops below offices and parking in the rear, could have been a great example of infill development on small, prominent lots throughout the city.
 
Frank, I agree with you on the on the shopping center near Paige St. Do you know if any developers have plans for the old furniture world site off South Willow St./I-293 exit? Seems like a prime location for some kind of business to move right in, I'm guessing their asking too much for rent/lease agreement. I have to admit I am looking forward to the Market Baskets opening up, but you know one of the Shaws or Stop n Shops will end up closing as a result. Once the Elm St. Market Basket opens up I think there will be more foot traffic in that area of Elm which will help the other nearby businesses. What do you guys think of it? Oversaturation of supermarkets or a good thing for the local economy?
 
Frank, I agree with you on the on the shopping center near Paige St. Do you know if any developers have plans for the old furniture world site off South Willow St./I-293 exit? Seems like a prime location for some kind of business to move right in, I'm guessing their asking too much for rent/lease agreement. I have to admit I am looking forward to the Market Baskets opening up, but you know one of the Shaws or Stop n Shops will end up closing as a result. Once the Elm St. Market Basket opens up I think there will be more foot traffic in that area of Elm which will help the other nearby businesses. What do you guys think of it? Oversaturation of supermarkets or a good thing for the local economy?

Hi Sean, I feel like I remember hearing something about the Furniture World awhile ago, but I can't think of what or if anything came of it.

I think you're probably right about the foot traffic that the Market Basket will attract. Unfortunately, I think it will attract more auto traffic. I know they're using an existing building, but I really wish the city would have held a harder line there and held them to the zoning, which in that area strongly discourages street-facing parking, building setbacks and single story buildings. If the supermarket was built up to the street with parking behind or even below it, it would have been much stronger from an urban standpoint and probably would have got more people walking past other businesses in the area. As it is, most people will probably drive in and park, rather than walk 100 feet across the parking lot to get there. I'm sure people will still see all the businesses on the opposite side of Elm Street and it's better than an empty lot, but it's hardly the best use of one of the most prominent and valuable pieces of land downtown, or a truly "urban" grocery store that the city has been trying to attract. I don't want to discount what it will do for the area; I just think Manchester as a community and especially the city government needs to realize that developers and businesses want to be downtown and they will do what it takes to get there--the city shouldn't be the one bending over backwards for them.
 
Talk about clueless.. the UL has an editorial today bemoaning opposition to the state's plan to build a liquor store on the Granite Landing site at Granite & Second St on the West Side.

If residents in and around Granite Street in Manchester or others have something specific and positive in mind to put on city-owned land near the new Interstate 293 off-ramp, fine. But the idea that a state liquor store is somehow unsuitable for the area is ludicrous.

Sure, there are people who find liquor stores distasteful, period. There are also people who still revere Carrie Nation and her little saloon-smashing ax. But Prohibition is over. Alcohol is legal and, in moderation, even healthful rather than harmful for most adults, and the State of New Hampshire is in the liquor business. It remains a significant contributor to state revenues.

The state does much of its business near or right on our highways, attracting tourists to our lower-priced liquor and offering convenience to residents. A spot near the new 293 interchange (a land swap might be involved) could be a significant draw and would also replace the store that was closed some time ago near St. Mary’s Bank on the West Side.

The Union Leader, in typical fashion, misses the entire point of the opposition and utterly lacks any sense of a vision for the city, which unfortunately so do some prominent elected officials. The problem isn't that a liquor store could be located there; the problem is putting a low-density, suburban-style building in a prominent, urban location that will be increasingly valuable both in terms of real estate revenue and in promoting business on the West Side and downtown as the economy recovers. A large, mixed-use development, in which a liquor store could easily be a tenant, would do wonders in revitalizing the Granite Square area and connecting the West Side with downtown. A suburban-style liquor store will primarily serve drive-through commuters and tourists, who may quickly jump off the highway to stock up, but who probably won't venture much more into the city. And why would they when the first thing to greet them is a bland, strip mall-style development?

For those who haven't seen it, here's a much more visionary schematic rendering of what could be built on the site:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7RxorqRKAM

For anyone able to attend, Alderman Phil Greazzo, who opposes the liquor store, will be holding a meeting about the proposal next week:

Ward 10 Alderman Phil Greazzo will be hosting a ward meeting on Tuesday, Aug. 30, to discuss a proposal to put a state liquor store on Granite Street. The meeting comes after Greazzo and other aldermen objected to taking steps toward leasing city-owned land off of Interstate 293 across from the Elks Lodge to the state for a liquor store.

The meeting will be at 7 p.m. at the Elks Lodge on Granite Street.
 
I would like to point out FLM, that that proposal is on a different piece of land across the street. The city does not own the parking lot next to the house and new Elks, it is owned by some one private I believe. The large building is proposed to be built over the street next tot he glass place and in front of the field on the two city owned parking lots.

Now across the street, the past site for construction material and machinery during the 293 and bridge work, is not vacant, and I think this is where the proposed diner was for, and now the proposed liquor store.

And yes, the UL has missed the point. Was that quote (I saw the UL page) written by the author of the article or what? Who is saying this?

I think a liquor store right of the highway is a great idea, however, it should be done properly, street bordering, with nice sidewalks, and parking behind or underground. Then it should be a few stories tall to then incorporate offices and / or residential above. If there is additional space, more ground level retail or restaurants could be incorporated. But I feel that the proposed idea would be much like a Market Basket, big paved parking lot, one floor, and a set back building. I don't doubt it could be nice, but it would be suburban style and defeat the whole purpose of smart development.
 
I would like to point out FLM, that that proposal is on a different piece of land across the street. The city does not own the parking lot next to the house and new Elks, it is owned by some one private I believe. The large building is proposed to be built over the street next tot he glass place and in front of the field on the two city owned parking lots.

Now across the street, the past site for construction material and machinery during the 293 and bridge work, is not vacant, and I think this is where the proposed diner was for, and now the proposed liquor store.

And yes, the UL has missed the point. Was that quote (I saw the UL page) written by the author of the article or what? Who is saying this?

I think a liquor store right of the highway is a great idea, however, it should be done properly, street bordering, with nice sidewalks, and parking behind or underground. Then it should be a few stories tall to then incorporate offices and / or residential above. If there is additional space, more ground level retail or restaurants could be incorporated. But I feel that the proposed idea would be much like a Market Basket, big paved parking lot, one floor, and a set back building. I don't doubt it could be nice, but it would be suburban style and defeat the whole purpose of smart development.

You're right about the property being different. I forgot about that. It's owned by the Manchester Development Corporation, which according to the City website is a "non-profit corporation closely affiliated with the City of Manchester", so I think the City definitely has some sway here, but MDC needs to hear from the mayor and aldermen, as well as the community, that it wants something urban-appropriate on the site.

I completely agree that a liquor store here would be fine if it's done as you described. With the big stores just a few miles up on I-93, I don't think there's a need for a ton of people jumping on and off the highway to stock up here, but residents, workers and visitors of downtown and central Manchester should be able to buy wine and liquor without trekking out to the suburbs and outskirts. It would also bring some pedestrian retail traffic to Granite Square. If it was done with a welcome center as a component--something that I believe was considered but nixed with the state budget cuts--and as part of a larger, urban-scale development, I think it would be great.

The even bigger danger is the precedent that building a suburban-style store would set: the rendering for across the street is much more likely to become a reality if the city improves the zoning in the area, holds developers to a high standard, and actively promotes the area. Selling out to the first bidder is something Manchester officials do far too often.

The first quote is from the editorial (not sure who wrote it); the second about the meeting is from the UL's "City Hall" column by Beth Lamontagne Hall.
 
The original proposal which was done in compliment with the larger proposal across the street was for a diner with large parking. Although this is not urban oriented and it could be better, I think diners are nice to have in cities, but that niche is already taken by the red arrow.

You are right that it may not be needed (a liquor store) in the heart of the city, but one thing that many do want and i agree is more diversity within the downtown and especially Elm St. area in terms of different retail and shops. A liquor store would be a nice addition as something a bit different (not a salon, barber, or restaurant/bar)
 
On the Cube 3 website they have done plans for the Elliot Hospital, not the new river's edge, but the original. The plans are for a $65 million expansion and renovation of the original facilities.
 
So I have no idea (i forget) if this was ever talked about here, or on another thread, but

http://www.outletsyes.com/

Apparently, they actually broke ground on this and I saw in the Union Leader online that Saks (some clothing store) will be going in there, first in NH. As much as these outlets are in a reasonably good location off of a main road, and will bring jobs to southern NH, I wish that Simon put more effort (and money) into the current three malls in Salem, Nashua, and Manchester. I think all three of these malls are reasonably blah as they are getting older (over 20 years I believe) and could use some sprucing up and promoting to get more stuff going on at each. Hopefully Simon will move onto the malls after the outlets. but the Mall of NH destroyed the Bedford Mall and I would hate to then see that mall waste away.

I also dislike how these outlets (not a surprise though) seem to be being built in yet again, a nice forest rather than some run down buildings or lots of land. But I have to admit (yet i say again concepts always look better) the concept drawings of the shopping area look nice. But they always add more people than in reality as these are usually car oriented spots. Again, an environmental impact rather than smart development. But all in all, good to have this going on in a bad economy.


Biking update for Manchester, I road the Piscataquog Trail through Manchester and followed the Goffstown Rail Trail all the way to their town center (small but nice) then back. The Goffstown rail trail I was disappointing how many out bridges and the trail quality until I looked up the amount of work they have done and planned work on their website. Apparently most of it is new, and the bridge from the Piscataquog trail in Manchester connecting to the Goffstown Rail Trail will be fixed / built next year in 2012. So after reading all of this, I felt better. The one thing that both trails lack are nice benches for breaks. And the Goffstown Rail Trail could feature a nice scenic area look out as it does go by some nice ponds, but it does not. Once connected I bet Goffstown will get a boost of trail goers as the trial in Manchester is VERY VERY busy. I later went on the river walk across the bridge, and although nice, it is VERY short and I was surprised so many people were on such a short trail. It really just needs to be expanded. And the park that the Elliot is supposed to be building (nothing going on yet) should be a very nice addition.
 
Hey, FLMike may know, but I was looking at the city maps (zoning) and the area on Granite Street near the proposed Granite Landing and the controversial liquor store is "general business zoning" which is basically, South Willow Street. If the city wants to basically expand the downtown area, whey not make the zoning more appropriate so everyone is on the same note rather than have it zoned one thing and want another.

Because I thought it was the Economics departments idea to expand the downtown urban feel onto Granite Street there.

Know anything about this FLMike?

IMO Granite Street right now is actually a nice area, it just lacks the purpose for one to walk there. But all the sidewalks are redone, some nice trees and plantings. Now all it needs are some better developments to make more purpose to the area and one way to do this is some more dense, street side development with retail and food on street level.

And looking through the zoning map, I question whether or not it is up to date? Some areas seem to be zoned funny.
 
Hey, FLMike may know, but I was looking at the city maps (zoning) and the area on Granite Street near the proposed Granite Landing and the controversial liquor store is "general business zoning" which is basically, South Willow Street. If the city wants to basically expand the downtown area, whey not make the zoning more appropriate so everyone is on the same note rather than have it zoned one thing and want another.

Because I thought it was the Economics departments idea to expand the downtown urban feel onto Granite Street there.

Know anything about this FLMike?

IMO Granite Street right now is actually a nice area, it just lacks the purpose for one to walk there. But all the sidewalks are redone, some nice trees and plantings. Now all it needs are some better developments to make more purpose to the area and one way to do this is some more dense, street side development with retail and food on street level.

And looking through the zoning map, I question whether or not it is up to date? Some areas seem to be zoned funny.
Most cities in America need to overhaul their zoning codes to achieve decent urbanism, so don't think it's just Manchester. And yes, it probably does look funny...zoning sometimes is the cumulative effect of an original and outdated plan's implementing arm revised several times without regard for earlier changes. The result? Look around.
 
Oh yeah I know it is not just Manchester. But I am looking specifically at an area where they want to promote the expansion of urban style development yet the zoning is different.

Whey do cities and towns not change their zoning more easily? It always seems to be in the way of what they want to do.
 
Oh yeah I know it is not just Manchester. But I am looking specifically at an area where they want to promote the expansion of urban style development yet the zoning is different.

Whey do cities and towns not change their zoning more easily? It always seems to be in the way of what they want to do.

There are usually legal requirements that zoning has to be consistent with comprehensive plans (at least in Maine, which I suspect may also be the case in NH). If it is totally contradictory, it may not even be valid. The case may be, as was the case here (Portland) with respect to the Bayside neighborhood, that an urban vision was put in place and the zoning was amended a while later. Sometimes it takes a while to catch up. You need to know the vision before you build the framework that supports it. Perhaps you could petition for a zoning change?
 
Patrick, living here in Manchester and driving around the city you almost get the feel that zoning was a "dirty word" until maybe 10-15 years ago. Manchester almost has the attitude similar to Houston, TX which is "it's my land I can do whatever I want with it." Someone brought up a great point that the downtown Market Basket does not reflect an urban supermarket at all, but it is located in the urban core of the city. When you drive down South Willow St. in Manchester you sense there was very little planning involved with the commerical buildings (signage, street scape, land of parking lots, ect.).
Don't get me wrong, Manchester is an up and coming city for younger people/families as it continues to grow faster than any other New England city, but it seems they rush projects thru the pipe line hoping they don't pull out.
A side note, I heard from a buddy of mine that they are in the process of billing Manchester as a destination city... a place where you would spend a weekend shopping, going out to dinner, ect. I guess there is a push to keep the bars open until 3am which I think is not a bad thing, esp. with the state motto "Live free or die" . Has anyone else heard anything about this?
 
Biking update for Manchester, I road the Piscataquog Trail through Manchester and followed the Goffstown Rail Trail all the way to their town center (small but nice) then back. The Goffstown rail trail I was disappointing how many out bridges and the trail quality until I looked up the amount of work they have done and planned work on their website. Apparently most of it is new, and the bridge from the Piscataquog trail in Manchester connecting to the Goffstown Rail Trail will be fixed / built next year in 2012. So after reading all of this, I felt better. The one thing that both trails lack are nice benches for breaks. And the Goffstown Rail Trail could feature a nice scenic area look out as it does go by some nice ponds, but it does not. Once connected I bet Goffstown will get a boost of trail goers as the trial in Manchester is VERY VERY busy. I later went on the river walk across the bridge, and although nice, it is VERY short and I was surprised so many people were on such a short trail. It really just needs to be expanded. And the park that the Elliot is supposed to be building (nothing going on yet) should be a very nice addition.

Great to hear about the trail—I still haven’t checked it out personally, though the Hands Across the Merrimack bridge is usually full of people lately. Goffstown’s village is really nice, and I think it feels much farther away from downtown Manchester than the few miles it actually is (it makes me think of the small villages around Monadnock). Once the rail is complete, especially with scenic overlooks and other amenities like you mentioned, it will be a great asset. I believe a lot of people who live around Goffstown village commute into Manchester, so hopefully some will choose the rail trail in good weather. Obviously, a regional transit system that offered at least hourly commuter bus service between places like Goffstown, Bedford, Londonderry and other surrounding towns into downtown would help in getting people to commute into town without a car.

but the Mall of NH destroyed the Bedford Mall and I would hate to then see that mall waste away. I also dislike how these outlets (not a surprise though) seem to be being built in yet again, a nice forest rather than some run down buildings or lots of land.

I’m glad the Bedford Mall is being redeveloped, though I would have preferred something a bit denser—still building up to the road as they’re doing is an improvement over the old mall. That said, there is so much underused land along the older strip corridors in Manchester and the suburbs that should be redeveloped before new malls, outlet centers or “power centers” are built on open space.

Hey, FLMike may know, but I was looking at the city maps (zoning) and the area on Granite Street near the proposed Granite Landing and the controversial liquor store is "general business zoning" which is basically, South Willow Street. If the city wants to basically expand the downtown area, whey not make the zoning more appropriate so everyone is on the same note rather than have it zoned one thing and want another.

Because I thought it was the Economics departments idea to expand the downtown urban feel onto Granite Street there.

Know anything about this FLMike?

IMO Granite Street right now is actually a nice area, it just lacks the purpose for one to walk there. But all the sidewalks are redone, some nice trees and plantings. Now all it needs are some better developments to make more purpose to the area and one way to do this is some more dense, street side development with retail and food on street level.

The way Granite Square (along with the McGregor Street area) is zoned seems like a huge oversight to me. Like you said, the city wants to expand the downtown to the West Side area there (as several planning studies have recommended) and Granite Street has been spruced up quite a bit, and while I wish it hadn’t been widened, I agree that the street itself is quite nice now. It’s just entirely lacking anything to make people want to walk along it—on both sides of the river really. In the 1970s and 80s, the city demolished the great, urban buildings that made Granite Square a sort of downtown for the West Side, while also widening and realigning Granite Street between the river and Elm Street, in the process removing at least a dozen buildings and transforming the street from an urban gateway to more of a commuter-focused one. As you drive or walk up Granite Street from the river now, it’s really an approach to downtown rather than a part of it. This could easily change given the great visibility of land along the street on either side of the river. It just needs to be zoned properly and developers given the proper incentives to add urban-appropriate projects there. What is strange to me is that all the “B-1 Neighborhood Business” districts, which are a great idea, were added in the last few years. I think Granite Square should be zoned CBD (same as downtown), but why it wasn’t included in the new B-1 districts instead of keeping it zoned for largely suburban use is beyond me.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure zoning is ultimately determined by the mayor and aldermen. I’m not sure how much the planning department has pushed for better, more urban zoning, but the 2009 Master Plan is basically all good stuff. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any part of it that has been implemented by the BMA. I wonder if giving the planning department greater control—maybe just giving the BMA more of an up-or-down vote, or giving the Master Plan, once approved by the BMA, the force of law—would help? Of course, it was more powerful planning agencies 40 years ago that gave us many of the problems we’re now trying to solve.
 

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