MBTA Buses & Infrastructure

[Tallguy]

This is a big middle finger to JP and the Emerald Necklace Conservancy! 700k sf for 200 buses? PVTA put 150(including some 60fter space) into 280k sf, for 1/8th the price!

 

[millerm277]

This is a big middle finger to JP

Uh, how? They're getting 8 acres of land that's currently parking lot to redevelop and should make Washington St a vastly more coherent place, a better street grid, and a wider natural buffer for the sidewalk/bike path than currently exists.

What exactly were you expecting here?

and the Emerald Necklace Conservancy!

They don't exactly sound opposed or like they were expecting any significant portion of the Arborway site to become park.

(Karen Mauney-Brodek, President of the Emerald Necklace Conservancy)

“We believe that a bus facility, plus at least 8 acres of housing and other community amenities, including housing for the formerly homeless and associated services, can all be accommodated on the (Arborway) site,” she told StreetsblogMASS.

Neighbors Have High Hopes for Redevelopment of Arborway Yard

“This will be one of the most transit-rich spots in the city with more than 18 acres of public land that can be utilized in a way that meets community needs,” says Karen Mauney-Brodek, …

mass.streetsblog.org

700k sf for 200 buses? PVTA put 150(including some 60fter space) into 280k sf

So at "PVTA" square footage, that'd be 373k sf for 200 buses. This appears to include an underground employee parking garage, and that seems like it could be another 100k sf as well.

But really, if they're overbuilding the size of the facility relative to what they currently intend to use it for, I'd be thrilled that they're building facilities with room to grow further in the future, not opposed.

for 1/8th the price!

I don't see a budget listed here at all? Do you have one?

 

[Tallguy]

Uh, how? They're getting 8 acres of land that's currently parking lot to redevelop and should make Washington St a vastly more coherent place, a better street grid, and a wider natural buffer for the sidewalk/bike path than currently exists.

What exactly were you expecting here?



They don't exactly sound opposed or like they were expecting any significant portion of the Arborway site to become park.

(Karen Mauney-Brodek, President of the Emerald Necklace Conservancy)

Neighbors Have High Hopes for Redevelopment of Arborway Yard

“This will be one of the most transit-rich spots in the city with more than 18 acres of public land that can be utilized in a way that meets community needs,” says Karen Mauney-Brodek, …

mass.streetsblog.org

So at "PVTA" square footage, that'd be 373k sf for 200 buses. This appears to include an underground employee parking garage, and that seems like it could be another 100k sf as well.

But really, if they're overbuilding the size of the facility relative to what they currently intend to use it for, I'd be thrilled that they're building facilities with room to grow further in the future, not opposed.



I don't see a budget listed here at all? Do you have one?

The have stated $400M in earlier presentations

 

[Tallguy]

Uh, how? They're getting 8 acres of land that's currently parking lot to redevelop and should make Washington St a vastly more coherent place, a better street grid, and a wider natural buffer for the sidewalk/bike path than currently exists.

What exactly were you expecting here?



They don't exactly sound opposed or like they were expecting any significant portion of the Arborway site to become park.

(Karen Mauney-Brodek, President of the Emerald Necklace Conservancy)

Neighbors Have High Hopes for Redevelopment of Arborway Yard

“This will be one of the most transit-rich spots in the city with more than 18 acres of public land that can be utilized in a way that meets community needs,” says Karen Mauney-Brodek, …

mass.streetsblog.org

So at "PVTA" square footage, that'd be 373k sf for 200 buses. This appears to include an underground employee parking garage, and that seems like it could be another 100k sf as well.

But really, if they're overbuilding the size of the facility relative to what they currently intend to use it for, I'd be thrilled that they're building facilities with room to grow further in the future, not opposed.



I don't see a budget listed here at all? Do you have one?

So the 700k figure does not include the basement.

Calling a 20 ft wide sidewalk an "Emerald Necklace"? The earlier agreement with the city involved green space. That is not green space.And I dont see how you could consider this a bigger buffer.

40ft blank walls right up to the sidewalk is, indeed giving any neighborhood the finger. And you may think that lying to the public to get what you want is "thrilling", but I have another word for it.

 

[Tallguy]

Uh, how? They're getting 8 acres of land that's currently parking lot to redevelop and should make Washington St a vastly more coherent place, a better street grid, and a wider natural buffer for the sidewalk/bike path than currently exists.

What exactly were you expecting here?



They don't exactly sound opposed or like they were expecting any significant portion of the Arborway site to become park.

(Karen Mauney-Brodek, President of the Emerald Necklace Conservancy)

Neighbors Have High Hopes for Redevelopment of Arborway Yard

“This will be one of the most transit-rich spots in the city with more than 18 acres of public land that can be utilized in a way that meets community needs,” says Karen Mauney-Brodek, …

mass.streetsblog.org

So at "PVTA" square footage, that'd be 373k sf for 200 buses. This appears to include an underground employee parking garage, and that seems like it could be another 100k sf as well.

But really, if they're overbuilding the size of the facility relative to what they currently intend to use it for, I'd be thrilled that they're building facilities with room to grow further in the future, not opposed.



I don't see a budget listed here at all? Do you have one?

I know Karen, and you conveniently ignore the part where she talks about community programs and structured housing. The Conservancy is most definitely not happy with this plan

 

[Tallguy]

and I expect a plan that is realistically sized and planned with both Washington AND Arborway having integrated curbsides.

 

[fattony]

I’ve been frustrated with very irregular headways for buses for quite a while and I was hoping this latest schedule update would show some improvement for my morning commute on the 89. It didn’t. Can anyone explain why buses are scheduled to be bunched from the get-go? I certainly understand sending an extra bus at the highest demand time, but I don’t understand headways like 8min, 15min, 2min, 13min, 7min. That could have been consistent 9min headway or 11 minute headway with the one slot doubled up (the extra bus). I’m sure there is something about operations that I simply don’t understand.

 

[Wash]

I’ve been frustrated with very irregular headways for buses for quite a while and I was hoping this latest schedule update would show some improvement for my morning commute on the 89. It didn’t. Can anyone explain why buses are scheduled to be bunched from the get-go? I certainly understand sending an extra bus at the highest demand time, but I don’t understand headways like 8min, 15min, 2min, 13min, 7min. That could have been consistent 9min headway or 11 minute headway with the one slot doubled up (the extra bus). I’m sure there is something about operations that I simply don’t understand.

Per the schedule changes meeting the other t day, some of that could be for school dismissals/arrivals, especially at certain times of the day.

 

[FK4]

I agree LRV is usually preferable to BRT in cities, but transit funding is mighty scarce, to say the least. Even just surface LRV on a reservation in a roadway is much more expensive to construct than BRT on dedicated lanes. It's like the phrase, perfect is the enemy of good. If we were to forego BRT and hold out for LRV, that would be a decades-long wait in most cases. Besides, dedicated BRT lanes can be converted to LRV when the funding becomes available, probably more easily so than if BRT wasn't there, because the automobile lanes and parking would already have been removed for the BRT.

Also
1. Who knows that transit needs are gonna be post pandemic. Maybe we end up not needing such condensed travel capacity because we never go back to 9-5

2. One other benefit of BRT - subtler - it’s cheaper and can be built now, but mentally conditions people to be more accepting of other mass transit projects if you show it works and you make it visible.

 

[millerm277]

You can make multiple quotes in a single post, FYI. A lot easier to read.

The have stated $400M in earlier presentations

Went looking some more, found this: https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/files/2021-04/2021-04-26-fmcb-bus-transformation-update.pdf

Looks like Quincy is budgeted at $305m for a stated capacity of 150 buses.

$400m for 200 buses seems pretty much exactly in line with Quincy's costs.

The PVTA garage looks to have been built on an empty lot in an industrial park, and of course, at Springfield's much lower labor/everything rates. The Arborway garage project is also going to require demolishing an ancient office building that's probably full of asbestos, the current Arborway garage + CNG fueling stations, and various other site work. On the same note, is the PVTA garage fully equipped for a full electric fleet? Or is it just equipped for the ~20 they have now? Lot of difference in electrical work between that. I'm not suggesting that covers the whole of the cost difference, but there are potentially significant differences here.

So the 700k figure does not include the basement.

Sounds odd to list the square footage of a building that isn't...the square footage of the building.

Calling a 20 ft wide sidewalk an "Emerald Necklace"? The earlier agreement with the city involved green space. That is not green space.

Looked to me like it was another 20ft above the existing sidewalk, is that not the case?

40ft blank walls right up to the sidewalk

Do we have a render or any sort of more detailed plan to suggest that's the intention? Your PVTA example has a fairly attractive frontage.

I know Karen, and you conveniently ignore the part where she talks about community programs and structured housing. The Conservancy is most definitely not happy with this plan

Yes, that's what the 8 acres are for. Nothing else in the quotes in that article sound like opposition. If they are opposed, it's certainly not obvious from the comments they've made.

 

[Equilibria]

Slides are up on Arborway:

https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/files/2021-12/2021-12-09-arborway-bus-facility-proj-public-mtg-accessible_0.pdf

 

[BostonUrbEx]

MBTA bike and bus lanes have been striped on Centre St in downtown Malden, with more markings going down. Here's a page showing the final layout with the grants they received: https://www.cityofmalden.org/853/Lane-Changes-and-Signal-Improvements-on-

Hopefully this paint-only project will be successful enough that the whole street can someday be fully rebuild with center-running bus lanes and above-the-curb cycletracks.


Here's one segment (follow the link above for more)...

 

[Charlie_mta]

MBTA bike and bus lanes have been striped on Centre St in downtown Malden, with more markings going down. Here's a page showing the final layout with the grants they received: https://www.cityofmalden.org/853/Lane-Changes-and-Signal-Improvements-on-

Hopefully this paint-only project will be successful enough that the whole street can someday be fully rebuild with center-running bus lanes and above-the-curb cycletracks.


Here's one segment (follow the link above for more)...

View attachment 19652

Center-running bus lanes should have been painted. The curbside bus lanes will be used as parking by delivery trucks and people "temporarily" parking.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Centre St in Malden, but it doesn't really make sense for people to park in the Centre St bus lanes. Most of the road is lined with strip malls set way back from the street. I don't think it will be much of an issue. A grant that only provides enough for paint isn't going to be enough to rip out the median, build new bus stops, change the drainage, rearrange the stoplight setups, etc.

 

[HenryAlan]

This looks like it will be quite good for bikes, as riders will presumably ride in the bus lane most of the time, rather than the car traffic adjacent green lanes. Really, the green paint is more of a buffer than a usable lane, but as I said, the bus lanes will work well for bike riders.

 

[lainpimicaja]

Center-running bus lanes should have been painted. The curbside bus lanes will be used as parking by delivery trucks and people "temporarily" parking.

Agreed that it should be center-running for sure, but that's really hard to do with a quick-build pilot in a smaller city. Infrastructure along that road is rough, so hopefully a successful pilot sets them up for a center-running project like Columbus Ave down the line.

 

[sm89]

MBTA bike and bus lanes have been striped on Centre St in downtown Malden, with more markings going down. Here's a page showing the final layout with the grants they received: https://www.cityofmalden.org/853/Lane-Changes-and-Signal-Improvements-on-

Hopefully this paint-only project will be successful enough that the whole street can someday be fully rebuild with center-running bus lanes and above-the-curb cycletracks.


Here's one segment (follow the link above for more)...

View attachment 19652

I find the bike lanes sandwiched between the travel lane and the bus lane to be very peculiar. That can't be very comfortable from an all ages and abilities standpoint. I would much rather worry about an occasional bus merging into a bus stop than to have vehicles passing on both sides of me for the entire corridor.

 

[Charlie_mta]

Agreed that it should be center-running for sure, but that's really hard to do with a quick-build pilot in a smaller city. Infrastructure along that road is rough, so hopefully a successful pilot sets them up for a center-running project like Columbus Ave down the line.

I just worry about a precedent and political inertia setting in when a phase one is painted with curbside bus lanes. Washington Street in the South End has had curbside bus lanes for several decades with apparently no movement happening to switch them over to center bus lanes. The political thinking seems to be that if a street already has bus lanes, let's spend scarce transit funds on establishing new bus lanes elsewhere, rather than redo ones that already exist. But I also understand the need to get a phase one painted in now rather than wait years ahead for the full build.

 

[stick n move]

With $15m federal grant in hand, city set to move on Blue Hill Ave. re-design

“A rendering from early in 2020 of what a center-lane bus configuration might look like on Blue Hill Avenue in Mattapan.”

“City planning officials told the Greater Mattapan Neighborhood Council (GMNC) at a Monday meeting that after receiving a $15 million federal grant, they are ready to move toward the next level of re-designing Blue Hill Avenue from Mattapan Square to Warren Street while renewing discussions with the community once again…”
https://www.dotnews.com/2021/15m-federal-grant-hand-city-set-move-blue-hill-ave-re-design

 

[HenryAlan]

I really hope the neighborhood is more receptive to the idea than they were in 2009-10. That said, even if I were generally opposed, I would support pretty much anything if it involved a redesign of Mattapan Square so that buses don't have to go to Milton to turn around and come back to the station. That alone adds 5 minutes to the trip and is completely unnecessary. So, my take is build it as rendered, and fix the Mattapan Station access, and this will be a huge win for bus transit in that neighborhood.

[edit]
Also, Seaver St. is definitely going to need to get this same treatment. That would give us a BRT corridor all the way from Mattapan Square to Jackson or even further.