MetroMark Apartments (née The Commons @ FH) | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills

It's "under construction" but that starts with all the environmental clean up.

 

[fattony]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

That's right, property values are plummeting across Boston with every new building.

Idiot.

 

[Archibald "Harry" Tuttle]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

The following article is about 3371 Washington, but there is no general JP thread to be found, so I figured this is close enough.

The quotes in the JP Gazette are equally ridiculous.

Shane O’Brien, who lives on Union Avenue next to the proposed site, was on the verge of tears when speaking against the project. He said that the density of the project was the issue he and his neighbors had against the proposal.

“It hasn’t changed in two years,” said O’Brien. “They can give something up. They don’t want to. I can’t see that as acceptable.”

He said that the neighbors are trying to “protect our rights” and that “no one is listening.”

“We are asking to give stuff up and get nothing in return,” said O’Brien.

- See more at: http://jamaicaplaingazette.com/2014...oject-divides-community/#sthash.OdYJPrBB.dpuf

 

[Randomgear]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

I actually feel sorry for the developer's in the Forest Hills area, they clean up contaminated sites, at no small cost to them, to build housing for the community. A project can't be LEED certified if it places residential units directly on top of even a decontaminated site and it is likely that a bank won't lend money for same - no one wants wants to be sued if a kid comes down with cancer. So the developers build grade level shops at street side and garages in back, still not something that likely produces much profit and yet the neighbors think that the whole thing can somehow work with two floors of housing on top.
The older buildings in the neighborhood are frequently 4 stories, it's mostly infill from the 70's and later that are lower. This neighborhood is finally on the verge of recovering, let's not stop it dead in it's tracks.

 

[FK4]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

You know, you people on here are so harsh toward anyone who dares to oppose developments - speak out against a neighborhood change and be instantly crucified on archboston. For the record, I am in favor of the city overriding residents to build tall buildings and change neighborhoods... in most cases. But - seriously - saying things like "idiots" about these neighbors? Have you ever even seen Union Ave? It's a tiny side street with a few nice old houses. It's actually a real oasis, a little street I've always admired. Most people that live in this neighborhood have been here since before they moved the Orange Line. I can't blame someone for wanting to keep their small side street and their view the way it is. People pick a neighborhood for a reason, and stay in it for a reason. And don't just say "Well, they should go live in the country if they want a yard/view/peace and quiet etc" - they chose to live here because that is what the street offered, and opposing change is their right just as it would be in a suburb. Go look on a satellite map, or better yet, go to the street and see the fact that the abutters currently face a wall of trees in their backyard that will come down for this project. If I were them, it would suck to have a big ass building chucked into their backyard, and I would fight it too. Seriously - who owns a home with an unshaded yard and a bunch of trees to look at and then embraces a developer who will cut down the trees and erect a 4 story building directly east of your property? Come on.

You can argue that a city needs to expand and the priority should be the sacrifice of the individual for the greater good - I think that often that is true - but please, be civil toward the people these things affect. Someone who lives in a completely static neighborhood for 30 years DOES have a voice and they MAY and probably DO have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. Whether or not WE want more housing for Boston or taller buildings because they're cool or fit OUR personal concepts of what urbanity is or what is "cool" has nothing to do with the real lives these people live. They DO have a voice. I even empathize with the Harbor Towers people; even though the logic of their attempted argument is ridiculous and they should be overruled, they still are losing out and I can't blame them for fighting a view-ruining development. Maybe this project in JP should be overridden by the BRA. But what the neighbors say is not unreasonable.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

FK4 you are spot on, thank you. Too many people here are so divorced from the reality of building in Boston, on either side, and fetishize the urban form. The world is not black and white and not everyone who opposes a development is some shadow fearing foamer. Name calling and demonizing doesn't get us anywhere and only feeds the us-vs-them development mentality that Boston is notorious for. The point of this forum is to have a conversation about development and architecture. If you care so much about something then go to the meetings, talk with both sides and maybe try to affect change.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

You know, you people on here are so harsh toward anyone who dares to oppose developments - speak out against a neighborhood change and be instantly crucified on archboston. For the record, I am in favor of the city overriding residents to build tall buildings and change neighborhoods... in most cases. But - seriously - saying things like "idiots" about these neighbors? Have you ever even seen Union Ave? It's a tiny side street with a few nice old houses. It's actually a real oasis, a little street I've always admired. Most people that live in this neighborhood have been here since before they moved the Orange Line. I can't blame someone for wanting to keep their small side street and their view the way it is. People pick a neighborhood for a reason, and stay in it for a reason. And don't just say "Well, they should go live in the country if they want a yard/view/peace and quiet etc" - they chose to live here because that is what the street offered, and opposing change is their right just as it would be in a suburb. Go look on a satellite map, or better yet, go to the street and see the fact that the abutters currently face a wall of trees in their backyard that will come down for this project. If I were them, it would suck to have a big ass building chucked into their backyard, and I would fight it too. Seriously - who owns a home with an unshaded yard and a bunch of trees to look at and then embraces a developer who will cut down the trees and erect a 4 story building directly east of your property? Come on.

You can argue that a city needs to expand and the priority should be the sacrifice of the individual for the greater good - I think that often that is true - but please, be civil toward the people these things affect. Someone who lives in a completely static neighborhood for 30 years DOES have a voice and they MAY and probably DO have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. Whether or not WE want more housing for Boston or taller buildings because they're cool or fit OUR personal concepts of what urbanity is or what is "cool" has nothing to do with the real lives these people live. They DO have a voice. I even empathize with the Harbor Towers people; even though the logic of their attempted argument is ridiculous and they should be overruled, they still are losing out and I can't blame them for fighting a view-ruining development. Maybe this project in JP should be overridden by the BRA. But what the neighbors say is not unreasonable.

Fantastic post. Know that you're not alone with this opinion of not branding anyone who opposes a development as idiots or other slurs (demonizing them) that get thrown around here. It's just that the people who hate on residents who are simply expressing their opinions make the most noise on here. It is also the reason that the people who are throwing these sorts of insults and insensitive comments are mostly not involved in the architecture or development professions. They are far divorced from reality of real world design guidelines and process. An idiot is someone who says the sun can cast shadows south, not someone who simply makes their case for reducing a 4 story development to 3 on a quiet street.

 

[fattony]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

That's right, property values are plummeting across Boston with every new building.

Idiot.

The guy claims his property value is going to fall if the building is built. It is not going to. At worst (from his self interest), his property value increase will slow from rapid increase to healthy appreciation.

So the guy either knows this and disingenuously claims his property value will fall or he doesn't know in which case he is an idiot for spouting off garbage when he doesn't know what he's talking about. So you have a choice - he's and asshole or an idiot. In either case he's hysterical and impossible to take seriously. If that is too callous then perhaps he is ignorant, rather than an idiot.

Anyone can present a reasoned argument for or against. They can share their opinion, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But when someone is spouting nonsense there is no virtue in indulging them. You politely listen, consider what they said, and ignore it if it isn't reasonable. I wouldn't call the guy an idiot to his face. He got his chance to say his piece. But the city's policy, rightly so, is to greatly expand the supply of housing and do it quickly. His irrational rant has been heard and overridden.

 

[Matthew]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

I'm going to push back a bit here as well. I agree with you that there is such a thing as "reasonable NIMBYism" that is not bad, and that such thoughtful critiques have a place. However, that is not the case here. This is a case of pure, shrill, anti-development, primal hatred being expressed on the part of the local NIMBYs.

If some of us are a bit strident in expressing our displeasure at these kinds of NIMBYs, remember that it has been the NIMBY voices that have caused so much dysfunction and so many problems in the city for decades. It is unfortunately the case that NIMBYs have learned that throwing temper tantrums gets them what they want from the city. They deserve very heavy opprobrium in response.

Someone who lives in a completely static neighborhood for 30 years DOES have a voice and they MAY and probably DO have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

There is no right to live in a completely static neighborhood, it's unhealthy for the city, the lack of change in the last 30 years had more to do with messed up policy and politics than anything else. This is exactly the kind of vested interest that must be pushed back against because it is dragging everyone down. As you well know, I understand.

 

[FK4]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

The guy claims his property value is going to fall if the building is built. It is not going to. At worst (from his self interest), his property value increase will slow from rapid increase to healthy appreciation.

So the guy either knows this and disingenuously claims his property value will fall or he doesn't know in which case he is an idiot for spouting off garbage when he doesn't know what he's talking about. So you have a choice - he's and asshole or an idiot. In either case he's hysterical and impossible to take seriously. If that is too callous then perhaps he is ignorant, rather than an idiot.

Anyone can present a reasoned argument for or against. They can share their opinion, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But when someone is spouting nonsense there is no virtue in indulging them. You politely listen, consider what they said, and ignore it if it isn't reasonable. I wouldn't call the guy an idiot to his face. He got his chance to say his piece. But the city's policy, rightly so, is to greatly expand the supply of housing and do it quickly. His irrational rant has been heard and overridden.

Im not sure the guy is wrong. While making an area more desirable by filling it up with condos may eventually increase property values, turning a woodsy view into a brick wall will lower the value in the short term. Yes, it will - it happened to my dad (who didn't fight the development, but that's another story).

At any rate, the details of what the man says are actually irrelevant here. He doesn't want the change to happen and he's using whatever arguments work in meetings and, if necessary, in court to make his voice heard. That's the way our system works. The bottom line is that he doesn't want this, and nobody can tell him - I mean him, personally - that he is subjectively wrong. Yes, we can override him in the interest of the greater good, but we need to be careful about doing that blithely, for that is the same mentality that was used to tear down the West End, Roxbury, and countless other hurtful decisions in the past.

Edit-

I'm going to push back a bit here as well. I agree with you that there is such a thing as "reasonable NIMBYism" that is not bad, and that such thoughtful critiques have a place. However, that is not the case here. This is a case of pure, shrill, anti-development, primal hatred being expressed on the part of the local NIMBYs.

If some of us are a bit strident in expressing our displeasure at these kinds of NIMBYs, remember that it has been the NIMBY voices that have caused so much dysfunction and so many problems in the city for decades. It is unfortunately the case that NIMBYs have learned that throwing temper tantrums gets them what they want from the city. They deserve very heavy opprobrium in response.




There is no right to live in a completely static neighborhood, it's unhealthy for the city, the lack of change in the last 30 years had more to do with messed up policy and politics than anything else. This is exactly the kind of vested interest that must be pushed back against because it is dragging everyone down. As you well know, I understand.

Some of this is true, but the wrath should be directed at the policymakers, not the people. And while there may not be a "right" to a static neighborhood, they have the right to argue for it since they do live there and their voices should be heard. Whether they win or not is an entirely different matter.

And lastly, JP has changed immensely in the past 15 years. Many old JP residents have been pushed out due to rising rents. In the short term, this development is probably only going to make this area (in general, maybe not our man's property) MORE expensive and further the process. Does the fact that inexorably altering the whole neighborhood and driving out everyone to fill it up with yuppies and maybe in 20 years when we really expand the housing supply to bring down prices matter to this guy who will be in an assisted living facility by then, unable to reap the benefits of cheaper housing? Bring this logic to the Hispanic family who's gotten pushed from Hyde Square to Roslindale and now having to move again. I am not arguing against development itself, or this one - I support both. But you can't just lambast the people that actually make up the neighborhood.

 

[davem]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

^Ideally, the demand for new residents to live in Forest Hills (or Hyde Park, or wherever) would be equal to the pace of new development. That way existing residents rent's could stay the same, while demand would be satisfied elsewhere. Of course, that isn't happening.



The other thing is Matt and I have a unique perspective living in Allston. Just two or so years ago, what seemed like the entire community was vehemently anti-development; of any kind. I remember going to the first New Balance meeting around 2008 or so, right after they defeated Lowes from moving to town, and the entire public comment process was people standing up yelling at clouds. The ACA is still a pain when it comes to businesses wanting to stay open later, but in general (as can be seen with the recent Mass Pike meetings), the tides have changed. And it's not really that the old opinionated people have been forced out.

Education on the development process, and what can be done to craft it to the needs/wants of the community, are paramount. Developers wanting to come into the neighborhood are now largely seen as an opportunity to create wide reaching benefits for everyone, not an enemy that must be kept at bay at all costs (which, of course, is impossible).

The real question is how to translate this attitude to the other neighborhoods. Instead of fighting an unwinnable battle against development (which will have negative consequences no matter who "wins"), Forest Hills, et al, need to quickly figure out what they want, and how to get it.

 

[Hutchison]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

property values do not = a protected right

 

[coleslaw]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

I live a block from this site these people are idiots. There are 4 story buildings all round this site. This little stretch of Washington is a dead zone if this can help it is worth building so build the damn thing.

 

[underground]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

Sorry, but blocking FOUR stories that block your "woodsy" view in FORREST HILLS? Yeah, that is in fact idiotic. Full. Stop. If your woodsy view is so important to you, buy that land or move somewhere that you can buy your own woodsy view. If you live in a city, your view isn't protected. I live next to a park. I'm "pretty sure" my view won't change in my life time. That doesn't mean I'm not full aware that it could. Why is that? Because I don't own the fucking park. Seriously, if you can't handle change, then the city just isn't for you. If this guy was blocking something incredibly out of scale, built on his own property, or built on some property that was guaranteed to be open space, yeah, I could see his point of view. Unfortunately for him, none of those criteria are met. Plus, he's in a city, not the country, AND he's complaining about FOUR STORIES. He's in no way defensible.

 

[coleslaw]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

Sorry, but blocking FOUR stories that block your "woodsy" view in FORREST HILLS? Yeah, that is in fact idiotic. Full. Stop. If your woodsy view is so important to you, buy that land or move somewhere that you can buy your own woodsy view. If you live in a city, your view isn't protected. I live next to a park. I'm "pretty sure" my view won't change in my life time. That doesn't mean I'm not full aware that it could. Why is that? Because I don't own the fucking park. Seriously, if you can't handle change, then the city just isn't for you. If this guy was blocking something incredibly out of scale, built on his own property, or built on some property that was guaranteed to be open space, yeah, I could see his point of view. Unfortunately for him, none of those criteria are met. Plus, he's in a city, not the country, AND he's complaining about FOUR STORIES. He's in no way defensible.

This also isn't in forrest hills it is Brookside

 

[underground]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

Fair enough. I've lived in Boston for 33 years and never actually heard of "Brookside."

 

[Kinopio]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

I live a block from this site these people are idiots. There are 4 story buildings all round this site. This little stretch of Washington is a dead zone if this can help it is worth building so build the damn thing.

I live 2 blocks from this site and I don't see the problem with this project either. Right now that gross parking lot and the rundown single family home on Green Street are eyesores. Not sure why anyone would cry about losing a view of that. The planned 4 story brick building will obviously fit better since that is what most of Green Street is on that block already. When you live next to two commercial streets you shouldn't expect a woodsy view.

 

[pixelsand8]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

Im not sure the guy is wrong. While making an area more desirable by filling it up with condos may eventually increase property values, turning a woodsy view into a brick wall will lower the value in the short term. Yes, it will - it happened to my dad (who didn't fight the development, but that's another story).

Taking out the legal issues, whether or not we should care about this depends a lot on other facts. Such as, when did he buy this property? Back in the 70's? In which case I'd say you'd have no real right to be making the argument about falling property values considering the appreciation that has occurred over the past four decades. What if he bought it in 2000? 2010? Earlier this year? Well then things get a little more complicated, because at a certain point you are talking about a genuine net loss of your total assets. Even still, when you make a purchase, it's your responsibility to check out the zoning of the surrounding lots.

It's also your responsibility to educate yourself on the political climate of the area to try and determine whether or not those laws might change. I think if you buy into a rapidly gentrifying neighborhood, it's reasonable to assume that zoning changes can occur to accommodate more housing. If such changes are proposed, than that's the time to attend meetings and voice your view on the matter - not well after that point when development is about to happen and you suddenly realize your trees are going to get cut down.

I live next to a park. I'm "pretty sure" my view won't change in my life time. That doesn't mean I'm not full aware that it could. Why is that? Because I don't own the fucking park.

Buying property is always going to be a bit of a gamble. In this case, a park is generally always going to stay zoned as a park, so it's kind of a safe bet. In the case of Union Ave, it's kind of silly to assume that a one story commercial strip will always remain such if the area is in fact zoned for something bigger. I don't know the zoning history of this parcel, but I would assume it hasn't changed in a long time considering what's proposed here doesn't seem out of scale with other buildings in the neighborhood.

Of course it's all a lot to keep track of, buying property itself is stressful and involved even independent of these matters. So I do have some sympathy for these Union Ave residents. On the other hand, one could do a lot worse than to own a piece of real estate in JP near a rapid transit stop. A lot of people with bigger problems in the world - such as those who don't have any housing at all.

 

[Matthew]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

And lastly, JP has changed immensely in the past 15 years. Many old JP residents have been pushed out due to rising rents. In the short term, this development is probably only going to make this area (in general, maybe not our man's property) MORE expensive and further the process. Does the fact that inexorably altering the whole neighborhood and driving out everyone to fill it up with yuppies and maybe in 20 years when we really expand the housing supply to bring down prices matter to this guy who will be in an assisted living facility by then, unable to reap the benefits of cheaper housing? Bring this logic to the Hispanic family who's gotten pushed from Hyde Square to Roslindale and now having to move again. I am not arguing against development itself, or this one - I support both. But you can't just lambast the people that actually make up the neighborhood.

The reason that "many old JP residents have been pushed out due to rising rents" is precisely because of anti-development NIMBY sentiment.

That's what frustrates me the most. I'm arguing against this NIMBY not because I like development for development's sake, but because further development is the only way out of the "displacement trap" where values go up and people get pushed out due to rising rents.

It's no coincidence that the places, like JP, where the local residents can halt development so easily are also the places that experience this displacement the most.

And honestly, I'm not so sure it's unintentional on their part.

 

[HenryAlan]

Re: The Commons at Forest Hills | 3593-3615 Washington St | Jamaica Plain

You know, you people on here are so harsh toward anyone who dares to oppose developments - speak out against a neighborhood change and be instantly crucified on archboston. For the record, I am in favor of the city overriding residents to build tall buildings and change neighborhoods... in most cases. But - seriously - saying things like "idiots" about these neighbors? Have you ever even seen Union Ave? It's a tiny side street with a few nice old houses. It's actually a real oasis, a little street I've always admired. Most people that live in this neighborhood have been here since before they moved the Orange Line. I can't blame someone for wanting to keep their small side street and their view the way it is. People pick a neighborhood for a reason, and stay in it for a reason. And don't just say "Well, they should go live in the country if they want a yard/view/peace and quiet etc" - they chose to live here because that is what the street offered, and opposing change is their right just as it would be in a suburb. Go look on a satellite map, or better yet, go to the street and see the fact that the abutters currently face a wall of trees in their backyard that will come down for this project. If I were them, it would suck to have a big ass building chucked into their backyard, and I would fight it too. Seriously - who owns a home with an unshaded yard and a bunch of trees to look at and then embraces a developer who will cut down the trees and erect a 4 story building directly east of your property? Come on.

I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. There are three or four tall buildings on Union Ave. itself, and the backyards mostly abut industrial structures or parking lots. I don't think this proposal is replacing some kind of special view.

You can argue that a city needs to expand and the priority should be the sacrifice of the individual for the greater good - I think that often that is true - but please, be civil toward the people these things affect. Someone who lives in a completely static neighborhood for 30 years DOES have a voice and they MAY and probably DO have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. Whether or not WE want more housing for Boston or taller buildings because they're cool or fit OUR personal concepts of what urbanity is or what is "cool" has nothing to do with the real lives these people live. They DO have a voice. I even empathize with the Harbor Towers people; even though the logic of their attempted argument is ridiculous and they should be overruled, they still are losing out and I can't blame them for fighting a view-ruining development. Maybe this project in JP should be overridden by the BRA. But what the neighbors say is not unreasonable.

Agree with this, but as you note regarding the Harbor Towers folks, the rest of the city doesn't exist specifically for the pleasure of certain residents in certain buildings. The Forest Hills area needs more and bigger housing developments. People here have their eye on that ball, and stopping 20 units because somebody prefers his view of a parking lot doesn't seem like good land use planning.

ETA

I agree with you that discussion needs to be respectful. But I do think these Union Ave. residents are wrong.