Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

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Re: Filene's

Do you really believe Menino cares about Downtown or the rest of the city now? I think at this point he is just trying to swindled as much as possible before he leaves office.

I think that's a misread.

More likely the Mayor is running for another term and wants this embarrassment to go away already.

At this point, he and the BRA have taken a beating for the project. Vornado's game-playing is troublesome.

I'm not clear why the BRA hasn't pulled the approval for the project, eliminating new density and land use rights and let Vornado walk with the existing as-of-right zoning. The article suggests a friend of Menino is a partner with Vornado, that might explain what's going on behind the scenes.

We probably know a fraction of the story.
 
Re: Filene's

To clarify, the friend of Meninio's is a partner with Vornado in the Suffolk Downs casino proposal, not the Filene's cite.
 
Re: Filene's

I think that's a misread.

More likely the Mayor is running for another term and wants this embarrassment to go away already.

At this point, he and the BRA have taken a beating for the project. Vornado's game-playing is troublesome.

I'm not clear why the BRA hasn't pulled the approval for the project, eliminating new density and land use rights and let Vornado walk with the existing as-of-right zoning. The article suggests a friend of Menino is a partner with Vornado, that might explain what's going on behind the scenes.

We probably know a fraction of the story.

In Boston Class A real estate demand seems to be outpacing supply. Vornado at this point could build the tower and make money. If you read the article I find this interesting point made.

"More recently, Vornado has approached the city with word they are in “serious discussions’’ with “a credible company’’ to build an even larger residential and retail complex on the property than the 39 floors initially proposed, according to an industry official with knowledge."

So basically since Vornado just left a hole in the city they can build the tower as high as they want according to FAA Regulations. They just completely biapassed anytype of BRA process that was ever in motion.
Great city planning if you ask me. They should probably do this planning more often. There is just a seperate set of standards for some of the developers but not others. No consistency from city officials

So VORNADO will get a green light to do whatever they want as long as something is built. In terms of you can either give us taxpayers money or we are going to build as high as we can.

Roth knows what he is doing. The Mayor is a complete moron and the facts remain that his friend is partners with Vornado in the casino bid, so that means they will owe the Mayor a couple of favors if this gets passed.

The Mayor doesnt care about Downtown at this point, he cares about his greedy fat pockets. Just like the Fan Pier situation. Do you really believe he got nothing from Fallon after promoting this location to Vertex with the help of city & state taxpayer funds? You know the only reason Deval Patrick won his race was because of the Mayor and that is why there is so much taxpayer money going into the cities projects.
 
Re: Filene's

Do you really believe Menino cares about Downtown or the rest of the city now? I think at this point he is just trying to swindled as much as possible before he leaves office.

I think he strongly cares about the Filene's hole not being his legacy. Say what you will about the man, but if nothing else, he cares about his reputation. The hole needs to be gone by the time he leaves office, and I believe he's fairly desperate to make it happen. On the other hand, see my thoughts bellow:

To clarify, the friend of Meninio's is a partner with Vornado in the Suffolk Downs casino proposal, not the Filene's cite.

Vornado has Menino by the balls. He knows Menino needs a resolution on Filene's, and he knows Menino is corrupt enough to do what it takes to help his friend get the casino. There is a quid pro quo in all this, which will get construction going at Filene's in order to line the pockets of Menino's crony at Suffolk Downs. In some ways, the end result is just fine, if it gets something built, but the question regarding a casino in Eastie shouldn't be linked to who owns what. Either a casino belongs there or it doesn't, regardless of other considerations.

And to Beton Brut, after reading your arguments, I've spent some time looking at the area, and I agree that it is not remotely the optimal site within Boston. I hope the neighborhoods that will get to vote on this turn it down.
 
Re: Filene's

I think he strongly cares about the Filene's hole not being his legacy. Say what you will about the man, but if nothing else, he cares about his reputation. The hole needs to be gone by the time he leaves office, and I believe he's fairly desperate to make it happen. On the other hand, see my thoughts bellow:



Vornado has Menino by the balls. He knows Menino needs a resolution on Filene's, and he knows Menino is corrupt enough to do what it takes to help his friend get the casino. There is a quid pro quo in all this, which will get construction going at Filene's in order to line the pockets of Menino's crony at Suffolk Downs. In some ways, the end result is just fine, if it gets something built, but the question regarding a casino in Eastie shouldn't be linked to who owns what. Either a casino belongs there or it doesn't, regardless of other considerations.

If he cared about his reputation then I would not let them play me like a Fool. I would stick it to them.

For all the business's paying BID it's a slap in the face to them.

When a major development leaves unfinished construction sites in the city for a numerous years your telling me that the city can't fine them for safety and regulation issues? Vornado at this point should be paying fines for leaving unfinished construction site at Filenes.

The BRA is that stupid not to have a contract in place with a major development about a TIME FRAME for unfinished construction in the city?

^^^That is common sense......This would have forced Vornado to sell the site for a loss or pay a big penalty each year until this was built.

How can the city not have a penalty clause in unfinished construction on a major development?

The BRA reminds me of the SEC.....People that really don't have real skills for the real world and can't find real jobs in the private sector but have some politically connected family that gets them a job to sit in an office all day with their fingers up their ass. That is a good definition of the BRA employees.

Roth & Wynn back up my definition for the BRA planning agency.
 
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Re: Filene's

I don't think there is anything illegal about a developer not developing. As long as it meets safety requirements, I suppose Vornado could leave it that way indefinitely. There is the blighted eminent domain option, but there's no guarantee that would go any better than the softer approach.
 
Re: Filene's

I don't think there is anything illegal about a developer not developing. As long as it meets safety requirements, I suppose Vornado could leave it that way indefinitely. There is the blighted eminent domain option, but there's no guarantee that would go any better than the softer approach.

That's not true. If the city had a clue anytype of development deal should be held accountable for unfinished construction per a certain TIME-FRAME.

I have seen these types of contract agreements when private developers purchase a large parcel of land and sell off the parcels to land owners that want to live in private community.
The developer can force the investor who bought in the private community to either finish the exterior of the construction or sell the parcel to somebody who can build it or force them into bankruptcy back to the orginal developer.

The city of Boston should have sometype of restrictions for unfinished construction especially in the city of Boston and start charging penatly's for the hole in the middle of the city. The problem is the BRA does not have that many bright people actually negotiating for the best interests of the taxpayers against tycoons like ROTH, WYNN even Fallon got his........The BRA are just a bunch of Puppets.

The solution the city officials proposed........BID. Take from the succesful companies because the inept have no clue.
 
Re: Filene's

"More recently, Vornado has approached the city with word they are in “serious discussions’’ with “a credible company’’ to build an even larger residential and retail complex on the property than the 39 floors initially proposed, according to an industry official with knowledge."

So basically since Vornado just left a hole in the city they can build the tower as high as they want according to FAA Regulations. They just completely biapassed anytype of BRA process that was ever in motion.


I agree that this is ridiculous, and I have nothing good to say about Vornado. However, a taller tower on this site (rather than the shorter "let's just get something built" proposals that were on the table) would be a VERY GOOD result, assuming it isn't value engineered into a piece of junk. There is not enough room left in downtown to keep building stubby towers.
 
Re: Filene's

I agree that this is ridiculous, and I have nothing good to say about Vornado. However, a taller tower on this site (rather than the shorter "let's just get something built" proposals that were on the table) would be a VERY GOOD result, assuming it isn't value engineered into a piece of junk. There is not enough room left in downtown to keep building stubby towers.

I actually love the idea that Vornado thinking taller. But my point is not about Smaller or taller building its just about what happened to the city planning process?

Once Vornado blew that hole into the ground everything that the city officials & planners planned got thrown right out the window.

Roth has enough money under his personal mattress to build a stellar tower for Filenes. I think his thinking was.... blame it on the economy so we can get Green lights for
#1 Tax breaks (which didn't happen...the Mayor has stuck to his guns on this one)
#2 Change the entire Building to whatever they want....A Bigger Tower
#3 Position themselves for the Casino Bid.

Roth is 10 steps ahead of the political hacks.
Can you really blame Roth for his actions on Filenes. The BRA basically let them get away with this.

I actually like the guy. I do expect Vornado will build something of signifance for the city in the end.
 
Re: Filene's

He may be a savvy prick, but I think if he was smart enough to see the financial collapse coming he would have been smart enough to know that pissing off the almighty mayor would be a negative for business even in the end he gets in on a casino and a taller tower.

Imagine, if he didn't knock it down, he'd be in the good graces of the mayor, would see all the other new build starting and go into menino's office and say- listening i can build this but I need another 100 feet and 200 apartments to make the economics work. Once this gets built I can put the return into the suffolk downs casino we both want. They share a hearty laugh, firm handshake, and skip out the door.
 
Re: Filene's

If he didn't knock it down it would probably still be empty.
 
Re: Filene's

He may be a savvy prick, but I think if he was smart enough to see the financial collapse coming he would have been smart enough to know that pissing off the almighty mayor would be a negative for business even in the end he gets in on a casino and a taller tower.

Imagine, if he didn't knock it down, he'd be in the good graces of the mayor, would see all the other new build starting and go into menino's office and say- listening i can build this but I need another 100 feet and 200 apartments to make the economics work. Once this gets built I can put the return into the suffolk downs casino we both want. They share a hearty laugh, firm handshake, and skip out the door.

Roth doesn't even think of the Mayor at nights......... Vornado will make the Mayor look good if Menino pushes with all his power the Suffolk deal going through.

The writing is on the wall. Are you serious about Roth not seeing a financial collaspe. For Christ Sake I saw that coming.....believe me ROTH knew it was coming like everyone else that has made alot of money in the industry. 2005 the bankers proposal to Congress was to change the bankruptcy laws against the middleclass from Chap 7 liquidation to force them into chap 11 restruction first. So they get something. Anybody with a half of brain knew a financial collaspe was coming. Gotta love Bush when he signed this bill into power. "Americans need to be held accountable for their financial situation" Okay then he bailsouts the bankers.

Once Vornado starts building and gives Downtown a new light......people will forget about the last 3 painful years for downtown. And they will pump up the Mayor ego like he was the reason why this development got built right before his next election bid.

This is how I see this playing out. The Mayor vs Roth is nothing more than NOISE to make the Mayor look good.
 
Re: Filene's

getting a little beyond menino. I think it still stands to reason that if Roth was so omnipotent as you seem to think then he wouldnt have paid $200 million for a building that after doing initial demolition and excavation and with permits for 40 stories can only get bids of $50- $100 million on the market. Sounds like he dug himself into a $100 million hole. The primary issue is, he doesn't mind waiting it out and the mayor and city do. that's where his leverage comes from, but make no mistake a hole in the ground for 2 years was not his initial plan.
 
Re: Filene's

I still wonder how the BRA could approve demolition permits without requiring financing to be locked down for the project.

It's one thing to approve a project without properly checking the financing. It's another to allow a demo to proceed on this scale.

Maybe some of the anger is due to what Roth showed the BRA in terms of financing to secure demolition approvals.
 
Re: Filene's

I still wonder how the BRA could approve demolition permits without requiring financing to be locked down for the project.

It's one thing to approve a project without properly checking the financing. It's another to allow a demo to proceed on this scale.

Maybe some of the anger is due to what Roth showed the BRA in terms of financing to secure demolition approvals.

I don't think you can ever get 100% financing for the project before the demo. But at least find out if the developer was committed to 50% financing from the bank or investors to build the foundation and exterior before the demo process.
Like I said the BRA is a show of puppets that have no clue


Sounds like he dug himself into a $100 million hole. The primary issue is, he doesn't mind waiting it out and the mayor and city do. that's where his leverage comes from, but make no mistake a hole in the ground for 2 years was not his initial plan.

And instead of leaving Filenes as it was and wait out the recession why not blow a hole into the ground to see what options our political hacks will give us. Like I said Roth is 10 steps ahead and has every scenario covered.

#1 No taxes breaks from the city.....
Looks like I go with option #2
#2 Big Tower, More residents, Retail space as the economy is picking up steam again.
Also get my casino license approval.

A WIN WIN for Roth. Did you ever doubt him?
 
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Re: Filene's

That's not true. If the city had a clue anytype of development deal should be held accountable for unfinished construction per a certain TIME-FRAME.

I have seen these types of contract agreements when private developers purchase a large parcel of land and sell off the parcels to land owners that want to live in private community.
The developer can force the investor who bought in the private community to either finish the exterior of the construction or sell the parcel to somebody who can build it or force them into bankruptcy back to the orginal developer.

The city of Boston should have sometype of restrictions for unfinished construction especially in the city of Boston and start charging penatly's for the hole in the middle of the city. The problem is the BRA does not have that many bright people actually negotiating for the best interests of the taxpayers against tycoons like ROTH, WYNN even Fallon got his........The BRA are just a bunch of Puppets.

The solution the city officials proposed........BID. Take from the succesful companies because the inept have no clue.

I didn't realize the city owned the parcel and sold it to Vornado. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not what happened. If it were the case, they could have built such a covenant into the sale agreement. At any rate, Sicilian's subsequent question about more due diligence by the BRA deserves an answer. I don't know whether the BRA could have foreseen that he'd run short on financing, but more to the point, I doubt they could have placed any meaningful leverage over performance. I suspect that it's very unlikely that any arrangement would be accepted by a developer placing them on the hook to complete construction if their investors pull out. That's far too great a risk, and such a requirement would pretty much kill all development.
 
Re: Filene's

Before accusing others of having no clue, one ought to have a clue themselves.

Vornado and Alexander's in New York.

The district was once known for its battling department stores, Bloomingdale's and Alexander's. But Alexander's closed in 1992 and the area was dominated for years by the store's gloomy facade until the building was demolished in 1999.

That was followed by years of construction, when shoppers wandered along 59th Street from the Plaza Hotel, at the southeast corner of Central Park, to Bloomingdale's, three blocks to the east, but not much farther.

Building on the Alexander's site was completed in 2004, so 12 years from the store being emptied until a replacement. Even his mother was reputedly pissed at him.
________________________

MARKET_SQUARE_010.jpg

Vornado walks away from a $200 million mortgage in High Point NC.
http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-c...eveloper_defaults_on_furniture_mart_loan.html
 
Re: Filene's

I didn't realize the city owned the parcel and sold it to Vornado. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not what happened. If it were the case, they could have built such a covenant into the sale agreement. At any rate, Sicilian's subsequent question about more due diligence by the BRA deserves an answer. I don't know whether the BRA could have foreseen that he'd run short on financing, but more to the point, I doubt they could have placed any meaningful leverage over performance. I suspect that it's very unlikely that any arrangement would be accepted by a developer placing them on the hook to complete construction if their investors pull out. That's far too great a risk, and such a requirement would pretty much kill all development.


I'm pretty sure the city did not own the site. All I'm saying is that major developments throughout the city should be required as part of the permitting process is that they should have to file sometype of disclosure form about financing and timeframe for projects that protect the city from unfinished construction just sitting in open sites for years. This will at least help the city protect itself with penalty payments and force developers to make moves not just sit their and take tax breaks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filene's_Department_Store
 
Re: Filene's

What makes you think there isn't disclosure? That doesn't guarantee clairvoyance.
 
Re: Filene's

from 1988 Filene's was owned by May's Dept stores of St. Louis although previously Filene's along with some other major Dept stores ( Abraham & Straus and Lazarus ) had been a founder of Federated Dept. stores of Cincinnati (1929)

Jordan Marsh had joined another chain of chains called Allied Dept. Stores (1928 or 1935 depending on the names) -- Allied eventually merged with Federated (newly emerged from bankruptcy in 1988) and then merged with Macy's 1994 and dispensed with the Jordan Marsh name in 1996

In 2005 in a bizarre "homecoming' -- Federated -- acquired May Dept stores and Filene's came home to Federated

Presumably the real estate of both Jordan Marsh and Filene's was then owned by Federated

Meanwhile Federated renamed itself as Macy's and all the other names disappeared thus ending the 100 year plus Jordan Marsh and Filene's names and giving Macy's / Federated 2 locations across Summer St. from each other

despite Menino's desire to have the Filene's building be the sucessor -- Macy's/ Federated/May/Allied (etc) -- decided to consolidate into the newer Jordan Marsh / Macy's and the Filene's site was surplus -- eventually it was sold to Vornado

http://bostonrealestateobserver.com/vornado-roth-deliberately-stalls-filenes/

" Vornado Realty Trust acquired the Filene’s Basement building in Downtown Crossing in July 2006 for $100 million after Federated Department Stores closed it. Filene’s Basement remained in operation at the site on a sublease until fall 2007, when the store was closed to make way for the $700 million mixed-use redevelopment of the site into a 38-story tower, including 1.2 million square feet encompassing office, condo, and hotel space. Filene’s Basement had expected to open a new store twice its previous size there (along with Target and Zara), in spring 2009 upon the project’s projected delivery. Vornado made its first Boston real estate acquisition in September 2005 with the $96 million purchase of the Boston Design Center in South Boston from the Davis Cos. The Filene’s Basement building purchase placed Vornado as landlord and co-developer with Gale International Realty. "

There is also something called Boston Global Investors which was listed on the One Franklin website

Thus the BRA and the City never had any ownership of the Filene's site

The only connection of the BRA was with permitting of the project as originally proposed (1.2 million sq ft.)

ironically the Jordan Marsh flagship store which was torn down in 1975 to make way for the current Macy's encompassed over 1.7 million sq. ft. in several interconnected buildings (tallest was 14 stories)

from Wikipedia:

" After World War II, the management of Jordan Marsh announced that it would build a new store in downtown Boston. Jordan's five older buildings would give way to a new building that would take up a full city block. Covering an area larger than Harvard Stadium, it would have two stories under ground; another 14 would rise into the air. It would have all the latest technology, including air conditioning, automatic doorways, block-long show windows, and radiant-heated sidewalks.[1] After the addition of the "new building" in 1949, the Jordan Marsh Complex was split into four distinct units; the 1949 new store, the original main store, annex, and bristol building. The Boston redevelopment authority estimated the complex's total retail space at 1,700,000 sq ft (160,000 m2), which made it overwhelmingly the largest retail venue in Boston "
 
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