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Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

I think we are overestimating the importance of gate admissions to the Revs/Kraft revenue model. I believe that Kraft will not build in Somerville/Revere/Everett unless he is given the land outright and a subsidy to boot. Why would he buy or lease the land? Then what business extension does he get? In a city stadium, the fans buy a ticket, a snack and a beer and then they leave.

From a fan perspective and an urbanism perspective, believe me I vastly prefer an urban site. It is the Fenway model: I would jump on a blue line after work (Wonderland), go grab a beer at a soccer cask and flagon style bar that would inevitably pop up, go in the stadium, grab another beer, and leave at the end. That is good for me but not a winning model for Kraft.

He is better with the Disney model where everything you do benefits him. He already owns the land in Foxborough. He has the amenities (and even a tunnel under route 1) to have fans spend a lot more time at other operations like restaurants and shopping that benefit his business. He is better off when I go to Red Robin on his property, my wife and kids go to Reebok on his property, I go to his pro shop, we leave our crap in our car that we had to take, and then head off into the game. All Kraft, all the time.

Additionally, at this time he is under no particular pressure to provide a top product. The most successful teams will eventually necessitate a TV contract and that is where they will really make money - revenue share from TV rights. Until that time, all he has to do is hold out and provide a passable product at lowest possible cost.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

Honestly, a mall at Wonderland around a Revs stadium would be pretty great.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

Semass said:
I think we are overestimating the importance of gate admissions to the Revs/Kraft revenue model. I believe that Kraft will not build in Somerville/Revere/Everett unless he is given the land outright and a subsidy to boot. Why would he buy or lease the land? Then what business extension does he get? In a city stadium, the fans buy a ticket, a snack and a beer and then they leave.

From a fan perspective and an urbanism perspective, believe me I vastly prefer an urban site. It is the Fenway model: I would jump on a blue line after work (Wonderland), go grab a beer at a soccer cask and flagon style bar that would inevitably pop up, go in the stadium, grab another beer, and leave at the end. That is good for me but not a winning model for Kraft.

He is better with the Disney model where everything you do benefits him. He already owns the land in Foxborough. He has the amenities (and even a tunnel under route 1) to have fans spend a lot more time at other operations like restaurants and shopping that benefit his business. He is better off when I go to Red Robin on his property, my wife and kids go to Reebok on his property, I go to his pro shop, we leave our crap in our car that we had to take, and then head off into the game. All Kraft, all the time.

Additionally, at this time he is under no particular pressure to provide a top product. The most successful teams will eventually necessitate a TV contract and that is where they will really make money - revenue share from TV rights. Until that time, all he has to do is hold out and provide a passable product at lowest possible cost.
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tHAT'S ALL WELL AND GOOD, BUT YOU ARE AWARE HE OWNED fOXBORO AND THE pATS WELL BEFORE ALL THOSE OTHER AMENITIES ON HIS PROPERTY. And was doing quite well. Just wanted more, and who could blame him.

A 68,000 stadium and parking lot to suit, takes up a lot of space that is not often generating enough revenue.

A soccer only stadium, with 43,000 less seats, and a lesser ratio of parking due to location, takes much less land. Much less land to pay taxes on, or to watch not make money.

Also, the soccer gate is not nearly the whole picture with what, 17-20 home games? It's much easier to fit outdoor music into a 20-25,000 seat stadium than find anyone who can hope to fill Foxboro. That gate is huge, and a major concession money grab to boot (but that's the concessionaire's money, though I'm sure a pretty penny of it goes to Kraft as well.)

Again, just don't go over the top spending money to build it, and you can make loot without building a Disneyland.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

[the Red Bulls] Playing in NJ means that they are out of sight, out of mind, even though they have a gorgeous stadium
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has this been a problem for the Jets or Giants? I guess it was for the Nets, since they decided to move to Brooklyn.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

Ron Newman said:
has this been a problem for the Jets or Giants? I guess it was for the Nets, since they decided to move to Brooklyn.
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Nope. But the NFL is so huge it doesn't matter. For almost anything else, crossing the river to NJ is a big deal. It seems silly to a non-New Yorker like me, but it's just the way it is.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

underground said:
Soccer isn't a niche sport anymore. 2011 attendance was better or comparable to the NBA and NHL. Professionally, it's a high growth sport, and the fact that the Revs are stuck where they are is a testament to the Krafts, not soccer/MLS in general.
http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-mls-surpasses-nba-and-nhl-in-attendance-2011-11
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That's a somewhat misleading statement, requiring some very specific rules about what is meant by "better attendance." Per game average attendance is slightly higher, but the NHL and NBA both play more than twice as many games. I don't know that soccer would draw that level with, say 68 games instead of the current 34.

That said, I agree that it is gaining in popularity, and has certainly achieved the necessary threshold for longevity as a major professional sport in this country.

Here are a few thoughts I've had while reading through the thread, some in response to specific things, but mostly just random ideas popping in to my head:

  • For soccer, Gillette does not work for Kraft in the same way that it does for him with the Patriots. He doesn't even charge for parking, which indicates to me that the Revs crowd is willing to pay the game admission and not much more. I've never noticed significant activity at Patriot place before or after the game, it's almost all tailgating, and why wouldn't it be, as the parking is free, and there is plenty of room to set up your gear. This makes me think there is not a significant opportunity cost to moving the team elsewhere.
  • Though it is in the suburbs, Gillette's location is not what kills things, it's the size of the stadium. The drive down from Boston for a game attended by 15,000 is not remotely painful. Of course, I live in Roslindale, so I'm closer than many, but the key point is that there is no traffic whatsoever, as the approach is designed to handle football games, with three to four times the vehicle level.
  • Main conclusion -- if Kraft wants an SSS, he doesn't really lose anything financially by placing it elsewhere, but there is not any real downside for him by building one on site.
  • If he is a soccer fan, though, he should build in an urban setting near transit. I'd say one of the proposed Somerville locations, or alternatively, in Roxbury between Melnea Cass and Ruggles. That was one of the locations pushed for a football stadium at one time, and it would be quite close to a substantial fan base.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

Tying this thread together with another ... I wonder if all that empty land between Alewife station and Russell Field in Cambridge is big enough for an MLS stadium? You couldn't ask for better transit access, and it's right on Route 2.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

The land I'm referring to is in Cambridge, nowhere near Belmont. East of Alewife station, not west.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

Belmont takes a nutty anytime anything is proposed even remotely near Belmont. They have fought many building and road projects in the Alewife area.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

Doesn't $84 million for an 18,000 seat stadium seem a bit low? I would have expected in the $140-160 million range.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

Open air stadiums are much cheaper than arenas.
If I recall correctly, We did a 50,000 seat college football stadium for $290 million total.

If there is no upper bowl, I could see it being much cheaper. Also, the above stadium was built in a very strong Union city. Typically cheaper to build down south.

Either way, I'd guess closer to your numbers than $84mil.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

If I were Mayor Curtone, I'd be willing to give tax breaks and then some to get that stadium. If ever Somerville want's to truely stand out of Cambridge's shadow this is it. Foxborro is a who-gives-a-fuck kind of place and is known all over the US. A nice soccer stadium in that city would put it on the map and be the exclamation point to what Somerville has become. To me it's a no brainer to do what it takes to get it done.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

No. I'm for a stadium, but it should be privately financed, without handouts from the city.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

^^ Then it might not happen, and it would be a net loss, and over the long term a big net loss.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

BostonObserver said:
Belmont takes a nutty anytime anything is proposed even remotely near Belmont. They have fought many building and road projects in the Alewife area.
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I think this is far enough away that I'd let them take a nut, it wouldn't matter. As for the land Ron is referring too, I walk by it pretty frequently. It's been looking pretty flooded lately. Don't see how that bodes well for stadium construction. Russell Field though, that looks like it'd be a nice place for a soccer stadium. Let the kids use it when the Revs aren't. It'd be good PR for Kraft, though I'm not sure if that parcel is big enough without moving the Alewife Linear Path.

Realistically I'm more on board with the Assembly Square proposal. In a perfect world they'd nix the redundant Home Depot and put it there. I don't care at all about soccer but the right stadium in the right place would probably make me a fan.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

SeamusMcFly said:
Also, the soccer gate is not nearly the whole picture with what, 17-20 home games? It's much easier to fit outdoor music into a 20-25,000 seat stadium than find anyone who can hope to fill Foxboro. That gate is huge, and a major concession money grab to boot (but that's the concessionaire's money, though I'm sure a pretty penny of it goes to Kraft as well.)
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The juxtaposition of these two points on the previous page (the music and the concessions) got me to thinking that the biggest opponent of an SSS might well be Jeremy Jacobs. The Kraft Group, as far as I can tell, handles its concessions in-house. A direct competitor to the Garden for music bookings that wouldn't be feeding into Jacobs' sweet sweet Delaware North concessions empire? Should make for an entertaining intra-billionaire d-swinging match.
 
Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium

looks awful. What's all that green space for? Besides that space is too valuable for stadium use, it should be office or residential. Move the stadium to where the Home Depot is and have it abut the highway where it's negative effects on the urban atmosphere will be mitigated.
 
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