New Red and Orange Line Cars

[Texasian]

The Red Line was built to larger dimensions (I believe they matched what is now the B division of NYC Subway). Every non-Red tunnel built since 1912 - the 1914 Boylston Street Subway, 1932 Kenmore extension, 1941 Huntington Avenue Subway, 1952 Revere Extension, 1971 South Cove Tunnel, 1975 Haymarket North Extension, 1987 Southwest Corridor, 2004 Waterfront Tunnel, and 2005 North Station tunnel - has been built to Red Line dimensions for futureproofing.

Whoa, seriously? That's some impressive foresight, but I wonder if we'll ever see any of that extra width put to use.

 

[HenryAlan]

Not that I think it wasn't a good idea for post 1912 construction to follow the larger dimensions, but how exactly would we ever use it, considering all of those features attach to central subway tunnels that are too narrow for anything other than Green or Blue line style trains?

 

[The EGE]

The 1914 and 1932 Green Line tunnels were built under the assumption that they would be converted to heavy rail, so at that point there was a realistic expectation that the Tremont Street Subway would have its walls bumped out and curves realigned to support that. (Such conversion did happen in 1924 with the Blue Line, but the cars were built to the smaller Green Line loading gauge).

While it's unlikely that any of the other post-1912 tunnels will ever see largely equipment, it's a relatively small additional cost (RL is about 9 inches wider than OL) for never having to worry about clearance issues. (Except for the dumb spot where clearances were messed up anyway.)

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

They were all built over-dimension for the cars because the 'experimental' era in HRT subway-building was pretty much over by the end of the first decade of 20th century. Blue, as noted, was a trolley tunnel...and a very early one at that with prelim engineering starting before the Central Subway had even opened. Orange Line was another early one, with the three Els and temporary Tremont St. tunnel routing all opening 1901 and setting the rolling stock + tunnel dimensions for the subway completed 1908. Small-dimension PATH, which is the nearest match to Orange dimensions, opened in NYC in 1900 after more than a decade of construction fits-and-starts, and just happened to be the nearest and most readily available comparison the BTC could glean from to inform some of its design choices.

But by the time the Red Line was being planned you had dizzying rates of new tunnel construction going on in NYC, in Europe...all around the world. All with a good 10+ years of prior operating builds to glean from. Rolling stock in all these new systems, where the builders were sharing info and best practices from city to city, had converged on ballpark-Red Line dimensions as a de facto standard with only minor deviations such as the choices made by the separate companies that built NYC's A and B divisions. With all that worldwide tunnel construction going on, it was way easier and cheaper engineering to stick to the de facto standard dimensions rather than making everything custom. And that included a lot of trolley tunnels where the large dimensions would never be exploited. A lot of the same contractors moved from city to city to work on different subway projects, so it became a design efficiency to do these digs with as little deviation to the engineering as possible.


Future HRT conversions were a helpful coincidence that did play in the backs of the BTC's collective minds. But it wasn't driving their construction choices. Scale was; don't mess with construction standards the widest range of subway builders know how to build.

 

[Justin7]

See post #283.

This is a downside of having an historical organically grown system, opposed to a fresh build system (like WMATA in the 70s). The specs are going to be all different because the platforms, tunnels, stock, etc are from different eras in transit design.

Ah, thanks. Would be worth losing the added length/width to use the same cars, but the platform height obviously makes that financially impossible.

 

[whighlander]

See post #283.




This is a downside of having an historical organically grown system, opposed to a fresh build system (like WMATA in the 70s). The specs are going to be all different because the platforms, tunnels, stock, etc are from different eras in transit design.

Data -- try the London Underground -- the old stations and trains are -- well as if they were from the 19th C

Russell Square Underground station, London by andy hebden, on Flickr

Balham Underground station, London by andy hebden, on Flickr

BUT at least while cramped as many are deep underground they did serve well as protection for the public during the "Blitz"


while the Jubilee Line is right out of the "Jetsons" or at least Norman Foster's Atelier

Canary Wharf Station

 

[Jahvon09]

The center platform looks very narrow!

 

[datadyne007]

Data -- try the London Underground -- the old stations and trains are -- well as if they were from the 19th C

Jesus christ. None of what you said has any relevance to varying rolling stock dimensions or even this thread in general.

 

[shmessy]

Jesus christ. None of what you said has any relevance to varying rolling stock dimensions or even this thread in general.

Is this a surprise?

It's just Whiggy being Whiggy.

The man is the walking definition of Internet Tourette's Syndrome.

 

[swtat]

Here's some optimistic news.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Here's some optimistic news.

2019 is a long ways away to be buying stock in "On-time...book it, done!". While it's nice they haven't already started racking up delays, it's still so early on you can't so much as throw a dart at the wall guessing what month of what calendar year you're going to get your first "new car smell" ride on the Orange Line.

 

[bolehboleh]

Good article on the ground breaking but I think that Baker should have invited Patrick to the ground breaking ceremony. After all, he was governor when this deal was signed.

 

[Jahvon09]

2019 is a long ways away to be buying stock in "On-time...book it, done!". While it's nice they haven't already started racking up delays, it's still so early on you can't so much as throw a dart at the wall guessing what month of what calendar year you're going to get your first "new car smell" ride on the Orange Line.

What I am trying to find out is will the co be taking over the old building that stands behind them and converting it into the rail car plant? Or will they tear it down and construct a new one?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

What I am trying to find out is will the co be taking over the old building that stands behind them and converting it into the rail car plant? Or will they tear it down and construct a new one?

They're only building new on the bare concrete slab: https://goo.gl/maps/6zasHgF3M8E2. The 2 parcels of crud in the back abutting I-291 are some sort of trucking/landscaping company, and a scrap yard served by CSX carloads of construction debris via the active freight spur off the B&A that runs behind the property.

Don't think that lone street-facing building of ex-Westinghouse offices that was left behind is part of the deal. That building looks well-kept and either partially occupied or very recently occupied, so ownership must've been parted out from the rest of the site decades ago. Street View's Oct. 2015 imagery refresh of Page Blvd. shows a contractor sign for Consigli, Inc. hung on the fence in front of it for start of some new renovation (apartment/condo conversion? revamped office space?). It's a pretty nice building...would work well for some law/doctor's offices or something, and if it weren't for the railcar plant going up in the backyard could've made for a nice residential conversion.

The info placards are up for what's about to get erected on that slab. Click around on Street View up and down that block of Page Blvd. and you can read what each of them says.

 

[CSTH]

^ Chinese company operating in Springfield, boasts that subway cars are 'tomorrow's technology'.

It must be the future (and I kind of like it)

 

[Jahvon09]

^ Chinese company operating in Springfield, boasts that subway cars are 'tomorrow's technology'.

It must be the future (and I kind of like it)

The new rail cars DO look more stylish, fresh, high-tech & sophisticated than anything that the T has ever purchased before.

The long-awaited GPS & automatic station announcements & display panels on the ceilings in the new cars will be a very welcome change for the Orange Line. The other lines have it - The Orange Line is the last one to get it.

 

[CantabAmager]

No new news concerning the RL/OL order, but CSR/CNR has committed to a 400+ car order for CTA and cars to be manufactured in Chicago (ChicagoBJ, open incognito if you're at the limit). Optimistically, CSR/CNR tentacles in two of 8 major rail markets and 2 of 4 major regional markets offers hope that the North American push is for real.

 

[underground]

That sort of puts a damper in the hope that Springfield becomes their manufacturing or at least assembly hub.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

That sort of puts a damper in the hope that Springfield becomes their manufacturing or at least assembly hub.

Not necessarily. It's a given that dealing with the Chicago political machine is going to require a factory build of its own. Springfield they are outfitting to produce wider variety of products than just the Red/Orange cars. Based on the money they're getting from Chicago, it doesn't sound like this is going to be equipped out-the-gate to handle much more than the 800+ "L" cars on a fast startup. If they make a follow-on push to expand its capacity/variety, then there's some question of where Springfield fits in the pecking order. But from what little we can extrapolate about the short startup timing and money appropriated this Chicago facility sounds an awful lot like a single-tasking assembly plant for that one order.

Albeit one that's going to be in business for a very long time with how huge this order is. Also entirely possible they're angling for the next Metra coach order. Majority of their gallery cars are antiques, with only 1 new order (a relatively middling-size Nippon Sharyo batch) in the last 20 years. While their fleet's longevity can be attributed to being better cared for over the years than virtually every other commuter rail operator on the continent...you can only punish stuff from the 1950's and 1960's for so long before metal fatigue starts wearing out the frames. Metra could be procuring several hundred replacement coaches by the time CNR's on the backside of this subway order. It's not far-fetched to see a 15-year lifespan for that Chicago plant in just its single-tasking local configuration if they get lucky on more upcoming orders.

 

[CantabAmager]

That sort of puts a damper in the hope that Springfield becomes their manufacturing or at least assembly hub.

The Springfield plant is still tops for the Northeastern market, especially if, as F-Line alludes to, the plant is equipped to handle a variety of stock orders. NYC, Philly, Boston, NJ Transit et al is the major concentration of market players in the US (probably throw DC on that list as well, I don't know how well a New England plants plays out for that market, but as I understand it DC Metro is serviced mostly by the already-existing plants in PA, upstate NY, so the Dirty shouldn't be too much of a jump). Chicago has heft, but not many neighbors. The Pacific Coast has heft and neighbors, but I doubt there's much a threat to Springfield's long-term prospects from the West Coast. It's still something to keep an eye on, but a forceful entrance into the NA market from CSR/CNR could be more boon than bust for the Valley.