New Red and Orange Line Cars

The T uses SurveyMonkey for all of their surveys. They probably shouldn't.

Funny part is that Dave was right - the trend is very clear from the early days of the survey. They got their data fine, they just failed to clean it properly before publishing it. Just say in the announcement why you only took the first 2 days of responses, and announce A for all the lines. You might get some pushback, but there were pretty few responses for the rest of the period, and the Orange Line shows that the distribution didn't change.

In fact, you don't even need to do that - just clean your data and don't share it. Announce A, say it was a clear favorite, and be done with it. Who cares?

It's disappointing that they didn't bother to analyze the responses, though. SurveyMonkey will do that for you on the freaking web site.
 
Wait... I get the Casablanca reference, but I don't get the comparison... Massachusetts has veiled vote rigging problems that I don't know about?

Two that were unveiled during this century:

Stephen Smith:

http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/201...voter-fraud/g9cBs3OJdeGsaSa9EmUiRI/story.html

Tom Finneran:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoma..._of_justice_in_legislative_redistricting_case

OK, I grant you that neither of these is the thing we usually think of as vote rigging wherein large numbers of (sometimes no longer living) people are managing to “vote early and vote often.” These are cases of politicians gaming the system, or (in Finneran’s case) lying about how he gamed the redistricting. Still counts as vote rigging as I keep score. Your scoring system may differ, as you please.

I do not perceive MA as being at the far worse end of the scale in the US (Chicago, anyone?). We are perhaps even far from the worst. But innocent angels we ain’t. Any veiled irregularities still ongoing? Well, if I knew about them they wouldn't count as veiled, cause I am not an insider on that sort of thing - I'd find out about it in the news like everyone else. But I'm confident we still have some dirty pols in this state.

Come to think of it, the way the Speaker of the State House is allowed to manipulate procedures in the House constitutes something very akin to vote rigging. Not really veiled, though, is it?

And Jeff Downtown, fully agreed: it's hard to work up any non-sarcastic outrage over an online web poll getting hacked. Has any web poll ever not been hacked, I wonder?
 
Nothing like consistency in public opinion. I don't even understand why the trains need to be color coded -- it is not like they run on the same line so there might be confusion.

Hello Jeff...

There needs to be some sort of color coding or number/letter designation or it becomes too confusing. Let me give you an example that we have here in Kuala Lumpur.

Currently we have two "LRT" lines. One line is called the "Kelana Jaya Line". Of course that line terminates on one end at Kelana Jaya and the other end Gombak. So depending on the direction it's going you might call it the "Gombak line."

The other LRT line branches kind of like the Red Line in Boston and the two areas it branches to are Sri Petaling and Ampang. Sometimes it's called the "Sri Petaling Line" other times it's called the "Ampang Line" and other times it's called the "Sri Petaling/Ampang" line - all of these names also seem to forget that the other of the line terminates in Sentul Timur. Also, some people often refer to this line as the MRT, even though it's run by LRT corporation. It runs more like the 7 train in NYC or the trains down in Singapore, so it's hart to believe that this would be called "Light Rail," but that's what it is.

Now, the city is building two more lines by a private company called MRT. Some websites are referring to the new lines as MRT 1 and MRT 2, but even their own website refers to them as the "Sungai Buloh-Kajang Line" and the "Sungai Buloh - Serdang-Putra Jaya Line."

http://www.mymrt.com.my/

Everytime I get an update on the construction of the lines, I keep hoping that they'll give them simple names like the "1", "A" or "Blue" lines.
 
I don't get why people are having a problem with them being painted the color of the line. They can't be transferred between lines anyway and it is pretty good branding to paint each line to match it's name it also is helpful to people new to the area and tourists which isn't necessary but is a convenient feature.
 
That said, painting the green line cars orange would make less sense.

http://www.universalhub.com/2014/when-green-line-trolleys-were-orange

The headline on that Universal Hub post is misleading / ahistorical / silly. The MBTA formed in 1947, and the color-branding of lines was in the 60s sometime. So that video from the 40s is not a video of "When Green Line Trolleys Were Orange", it's a video of when the MBTA's predecessor's (BERy, I think?) trolleys were orange. Where the hell's an editor when we need one? Oh, right, a place like Universal Hub only has "self-editing" a/k/a no editing at all.

I like having the paint schemes match the line names.

I also like the idea of soliciting public opinion on which scheme to go with, but not via a web poll. I'd vote for making it into a class project for some high school or college, canvas T riders with live poll-takers, something like that. If you pick the right teacher / professor, you can get the thing structured with some degree of statistical and procedural rigor, a few kids get some experience doing that sort of thing (however modest a life experience it might be), it could generate a bit of buzz amongst riders (OK, not as much buzz as a good winter performance, but still...), perhaps get a broader cross-section of opinion than the self-selection of a web poll, and no one can hack it with a computer program.
 
Hello Jeff...

There needs to be some sort of color coding or number/letter designation or it becomes too confusing. Let me give you an example that we have here in Kuala Lumpur.

Currently we have two "LRT" lines. One line is called the "Kelana Jaya Line". Of course that line terminates on one end at Kelana Jaya and the other end Gombak. So depending on the direction it's going you might call it the "Gombak line."

The other LRT line branches kind of like the Red Line in Boston and the two areas it branches to are Sri Petaling and Ampang. Sometimes it's called the "Sri Petaling Line" other times it's called the "Ampang Line" and other times it's called the "Sri Petaling/Ampang" line - all of these names also seem to forget that the other of the line terminates in Sentul Timur. Also, some people often refer to this line as the MRT, even though it's run by LRT corporation. It runs more like the 7 train in NYC or the trains down in Singapore, so it's hart to believe that this would be called "Light Rail," but that's what it is.

Now, the city is building two more lines by a private company called MRT. Some websites are referring to the new lines as MRT 1 and MRT 2, but even their own website refers to them as the "Sungai Buloh-Kajang Line" and the "Sungai Buloh - Serdang-Putra Jaya Line."

http://www.mymrt.com.my/

Everytime I get an update on the construction of the lines, I keep hoping that they'll give them simple names like the "1", "A" or "Blue" lines.

I understand why the LINES need to be color coded. But the actual trains only run on one of the color coded lines. And we do not try to color code the branches of the lines here in Boston -- no difference between a Braintree and an Ashmont train other than a sign. No difference between a B, C, D or E trolley other than a sign.

Color coding of train sets based on branches would actually be useful (but not practical due to usage patterns). Color coding of train sets that are fixed on a line (Red Line, Green Line, Orange Line, Blue Line) is superfluous. The platforms are color coded; the trains do not need to be so. If you are standing on a platform, surrounded by red columns, red stripes, red signs, red direction information and you cannot figure out that you are on the RED LINE, then you probably should not be out of your home on public transit.
 
The headline on that Universal Hub post is misleading / ahistorical / silly. The MBTA formed in 1947, and the color-branding of lines was in the 60s sometime. So that video from the 40s is not a video of "When Green Line Trolleys Were Orange", it's a video of when the MBTA's predecessor's (BERy, I think?) trolleys were orange. Where the hell's an editor when we need one? Oh, right, a place like Universal Hub only has "self-editing" a/k/a no editing at all.

.

Minor correction, MTA was formed in 1947 and took over Boston Elevated Railway, MBTA was formed in 1964 and took over MTA. But as you note, color coding and the "T" logo came along in the 1960s after the MBTA was formed.
Prior to that by 1947, most "surface lines equipment" (streetcar, bus, and trackless trolleys) were painted in the orange and cream scheme. The orange paint was introduced in 1924 to increase visibility and reduce accidents.
 
The lines received their color names in 1965 as part of systemwide rebranding which also renamed stations (1964-1967), gave the Green Line branches letters (1967), etc. The rolling stock was not recolored until rather later for the most part. (I welcome corrections here.)

The Orange Line stock was already in M.T.A. orange; the #12 cars arriving in 1979-1981 appear to have changed that color but only slightly. The Blue Line's similar new cars at the same time arrived blue. I believe the Red Line was not colored properly until the rebuilds and new arrivals in the late 1980s. The Green Line lasted a while with a mixed group of colors; here's an orange and grey consist in 1976:

Green_Line_trolley_next_to_Central_Artery.jpg

(Photo by Peter H. Dreyer, available from Wikimedia Commons under Creative Commons Attribution license.)
 
The lines received their color names in 1965 as part of systemwide rebranding which also renamed stations (1964-1967), gave the Green Line branches letters (1967), etc. The rolling stock was not recolored until rather later for the most part. (I welcome corrections here.)

When the MBTA took over from the MTA in August 1964, all buses, trackless trolleys, and streetcars were painted in some version of the orange scheme (the newest busess from the early 60s were painted in an orange and white scheme, with unpainted silver aluminum in sections while the paint scheme on older buses, trackless trolleys, and PCC streetcars was the full orange and creme with a silver roof and maroon belt rail scheme). The equipment on the Cambridge-Dorchester (Red) Line was a new fleet of cars built in 1963, funded with money from the state, and painted in the "state colors" of blue and white with gold trim. The East Boston tunnel (Blue Line) had cars from 1924 that were repainted in a two-tone grey with orange belt scheme in 1951 when they were overhauled and another group of cars built in 1951 and delivered in that scheme. The MTA started repainting some of the 1951 East Boston cars blue and white, to match the paint of the 1963 Cambridge-Dorchester cars. The Main Line elevated (Orange Line) fleet consisted of 100 cars built in 1957-1958 that came painted in a grey and orange scheme. Some older equipment on the Main Line El and the Cambridge-Dorchester lines were also repainted from olive green or dark brown into this orange/grey scheme in the 1950s, but all of these cars were retired before 1964.

Cambridge Seven proposed that all new and refurbished equipment be painted in a grey and white scheme with bright yellow doors. As mentioned in another thread, several hundred new buses came delivered in this scheme, some older buses and 1 trackless trolley were repainted in this scheme, numerous PCC sreetcars were repainted, and six Orange Line cars.
This "grey ghost" scheme did go over well, it showed dirt easily and made equipment hard to see in snow and fog. In 1969, the new "South Shore" Red Line cars were delivered in unpainted silver aluminum with a thin red stripe.

In 1971, the grey ghost scheme was abandoned and the decision was made to paint equipment in the color of the assigned line. Buses would be painted yellow.

PCCs began appearing repainted green in 1972 and the Boeing LRVs were delivered green starting in 1976. It took a long time to repaint PCCs green, some were running on the Green Line with orange paint as late as 1984, just a year before the Arborway line closed and PCCs were retired from the Green Line.

The 1951 Blue Line cars were already painted in a blue and white scheme to match the 1963 red line cars, but the 1924 Blue Line cars were repainted from1950s two-tone grey to blue and white in the early 1970s. The 1957 Orange Line cars were repainted into a brighter orange and white scheme from the original 1957 orange and grey scheme. The present fleet from 1979-81 were delivered in a scheme that matched the repainted 1957 cars they replaced.

Aside from the thin red stripe on the 1969 cars, the Red Line was the last to see any cars painted into the color of the line, as the 1963 cars got red and white paint as they were rebuilt in the 1979-84 time period, and the 1969 cars were repainted in their present red and white scheme when they were rebuilt in 1985-88. In 1977, the PCCs assigned to the Mattapan-Ashmont line were repainted red. This was a short lived scheme, as the group of cars repainted in 1977 were retired in 1981 and replaced by another group of PCC cars which had recently been rebuilt and were painted green. Green PCCs remained at Mattapan until the cars were rebuilt again in 1999-2005 and came back repainted in the original orange and cream scheme that the cars were delivered in.
 
Minor correction, MTA was formed in 1947 and took over Boston Elevated Railway, MBTA was formed in 1964 and took over MTA.
Thanks for the correction. I tend to blank the MTA right out of my mind, despite having been reminded of its existence numerous times. Blind spot.
 
The T has declared option 1 the winner across the board. No supergraphic.

In order to get a more accurate measurement of voters' opinions, the MBTA removed all responses seemingly generated by a computer program. Because each of these responses were recorded in less than ten seconds, the MBTA deemed the votes invalid and subsequently nullified the unreliable data. The MBTA regrets any confusion created by the previously announced results, and takes full responsibility for failing to properly monitor the survey responses. This will not happen again. The MBTA thanks the thousands of people who had a genuine interest in helping the MBTA select a new look for its new subway and trolley cars

http://blog.mass.gov/transportation/mbta/mbta-new-subway-cars-exterior-designs-update/

MBTA-New-Green-Line-Car-Design.jpg


MBTA-New-Red-Line-Car-Design.jpg


MBTA-New-Orange-Line-Car-Design.jpg
 
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The MBTA regrets any confusion created by the previously announced results, and takes full responsibility for failing to properly monitor the survey responses. This will not happen again.

Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretti nasti...
 
Someone please remind me why red and orange use different cars.
 
Someone please remind me why red and orange use different cars.

The mechanical pieces of the new cars we are buying should be similar. However, the tunnels and platforms have different clearances, and the platforms have different lengths; so the body of the cars has to be different between the Orange and Red.
 
Someone please remind me why red and orange use different cars.

See post #283.

From Reddit:
RED LINE: Cars are 69 feet long and 10 feet 3 inches wide; station height is 4 feet 1 inch from rails to platform.

ORANGE LINE: Cars are 65 feet long and 9 feet 3 inches wide; station height is 3 feet 9 inches from rails to platform.

BLUE LINE: Cars are 48 feet long and 9 feet 3 inches wide; station height is 3 feet 5 ½ inches from rails to platform.


This is a downside of having an historical organically grown system, opposed to a fresh build system (like WMATA in the 70s). The specs are going to be all different because the platforms, tunnels, stock, etc are from different eras in transit design.
 
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The Orange Line operated through the Green Line's Tremont Street Tunnel - a tight fit even for streetcars. The Blue Line tunnel was a streetcar tunnel from 1904 to 1924 - including the Bowdoin loop. So both of their rolling stock fit in streetcar loading gauge (height, width, clearances) and bigger stock would not fit through their downtown tunnels. The Orange and Blue lines have identical loading gauges except for car lengths; the old Blue and current Orange cars shared a lot of parts (and the current Orange fleet uses old Blue parts to keep moving).

The Red Line was built to larger dimensions (I believe they matched what is now the B division of NYC Subway). Every non-Red tunnel built since 1912 - the 1914 Boylston Street Subway, 1932 Kenmore extension, 1941 Huntington Avenue Subway, 1952 Revere Extension, 1971 South Cove Tunnel, 1975 Haymarket North Extension, 1987 Southwest Corridor, 2004 Waterfront Tunnel, and 2005 North Station tunnel - has been built to Red Line dimensions for futureproofing.

The new Orange and Red cars will probably have very similar to identical trucks, propulsion, frames, etc. They run on the same track width and same power supply. Only the top-half shells will be different to match the different tunnel sizes.
 
The Orange Line operated through the Green Line's Tremont Street Tunnel - a tight fit even for streetcars. The Blue Line tunnel was a streetcar tunnel from 1904 to 1924 - including the Bowdoin loop. So both of their rolling stock fit in streetcar loading gauge (height, width, clearances) and bigger stock would not fit through their downtown tunnels. The Orange and Blue lines have identical loading gauges except for car lengths; the old Blue and current Orange cars shared a lot of parts (and the current Orange fleet uses old Blue parts to keep moving).

The Red Line was built to larger dimensions (I believe they matched what is now the B division of NYC Subway). Every non-Red tunnel built since 1912 - the 1914 Boylston Street Subway, 1932 Kenmore extension, 1941 Huntington Avenue Subway, 1952 Revere Extension, 1971 South Cove Tunnel, 1975 Haymarket North Extension, 1987 Southwest Corridor, 2004 Waterfront Tunnel, and 2005 North Station tunnel - has been built to Red Line dimensions for futureproofing.

The new Orange and Red cars will probably have very similar to identical trucks, propulsion, frames, etc. They run on the same track width and same power supply. Only the top-half shells will be different to match the different tunnel sizes.


Which it has surprised me that the new Orange Line cars has their shells tapered upwards slightly toward the roof with a curve near the bottom, while the new Red Line cars have straight-up shells from the curve at the bottom to the roof.
 

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