Official Gun Control Debate Thread

But again, why not just remove the freaking machines that enable someone to do this kind of killing?

Personally, I believe the 2nd amendment should be abolished in its entirety, but I realize that's my extreme left position and that sensible restrictions are more reasonable. People who legally and responsibly use guns would not be affected by any of the restrictions that are being proposed.
 
Agreed. Tax prohibited by First Amendment. Tax prohibited by Second Amendment?
The taxing power is vast and rarely challenged(hence Justice Robert's ruling on Obamacare, and why the dissenting conservatives avoided calling it a tax), and definitely extends to both guns and the media (if applied in a non-censoring / non-favoring way)

I think the Supremes would rule 9-0 that the Feds can do an excise tax or sales tax on weapon transactions so long as isn't grossly biased in favor of one group affording guns vs another.
 
Because law-making is about the art of the possible.

We've done an assault weapons ban before. I and every other lawmaker in favor of this are not advocating to end gun ownership altogether. There would be a list of hundreds of exceptions of handguns, low-capacity rifles, etc.
 
We've done an assault weapons ban before. I and every other lawmaker in favor of this are not advocating to end gun ownership altogether. There would be a list of hundreds of exceptions of handguns, low-capacity rifles, etc.
Did the Assault Weapons ban have any benefits or did it just feel good? I want to work just as hard (or harder) on the "crazy people" side of the problem---something we haven't tried (that I'm aware of).
 
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More people favor banning semi-automatics than "assault weapons"? Are there assault weapons that are not semi-automatic?
 
An interesting thing I heard last night was that many of the people taking these polls believe there are already sufficient measures on background checks and prevention for people with mental illnesses (when there are in fact not). That is how many of these issues get such overwhelming bi-partisan support. Many believe the lies that the NRA tells constantly, while they lobby AGAINST background checks and establishing a central database. According to the election, the Democrats only have around a 53% standing, meaning that a large percentage of Republicans must also be voting in favor of these measures.
 
More people favor banning semi-automatics than "assault weapons"? Are there assault weapons that are not semi-automatic?
I found that strange as well.

I'm fairly certain that all Assault style rifles are semi-automatic whereas only some handguns, hunting rifles and shotguns are semi-automatic (I own one, a Remington 1100). In fact, semi-automatic is the only variation of assault-rifles legal in the U.S. Many of them are designed to allow multiple shooting modes. Automatic (hold the trigger for constant fire), Burst (hold the trigger for a multiple round burst), and semi-auto (one shot per trigger squeeze). but only assault rifles limited to semi-automatic firing are legal.

I'd wager that there's likely confusion among people who don't know anything about firearms. They're probably assuming that semi-auto is actually the same thing as automatic. Otherwise, that doesn't seem to make sense to me as just about every assault weapon would included in a ban on semi-automatic weapons.
 
I found that strange as well.

I'm fairly certain that all Assault style rifles are semi-automatic whereas only some handguns, hunting rifles and shotguns are semi-automatic (I own one, a Remington 1100). In fact, semi-automatic is the only variation of assault-rifles legal in the U.S. Many of them are designed to allow multiple shooting modes. Automatic (hold the trigger for constant fire), Burst (hold the trigger for a multiple round burst), and semi-auto (one shot per trigger squeeze). but only assault rifles limited to semi-automatic firing are legal.

I'd wager that there's likely confusion among people who don't know anything about firearms. They're probably assuming that semi-auto is actually the same thing as automatic. Otherwise, that doesn't seem to make sense to me as just about every assault weapon would included in a ban on semi-automatic weapons.

I think they were testing semantics because that's what this legislation is going to come down to: foolish semantics.
 
I'd wager that there's likely confusion among people who don't know anything about firearms.
There's also a ~3% margin of error in the Pew Poll, so I wouldn't try to parse the difference between 58% and 55% too closely. The best/clearest takeaway is that about 55% support an "assault/semi-auto" ban and 40% oppose it.

I think the key chart is this one, which examines areas where gun owners and non-owners agree (or don't):
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I'd see racing ahead on anything that has the support of 60%+ of gun owners (and hope that budgetary constraints nix armed school guards) I see I'm aligned with the gun owners (though I am not one) on the question of not letting crazy people get guns (90% of owners favor). What's with the gap though? (on the next-to-last line, above) Why do only 76% of non-owners think this is a good idea?

Israeli airport security has taught us that the best strategy is to look for killers (who are easy to spot if you're looking) and not weapons (which are everywhere).
 
I think they were testing semantics because that's what this legislation is going to come down to: foolish semantics.
Without a doubt that's what it will come down to.

There's also a ~3% margin of error in the Pew Poll, so I wouldn't try to parse the difference between 58% and 55% too closely. The best/clearest takeaway is that about 55% support an "assault/semi-auto" ban and 40% oppose it.

I think the key chart is this one, which examines areas where gun owners and non-owners agree (or don't):
1-14-13-8.png


I see I'm aligned with the gun owners (though I am not one) on the question of not letting crazy people get guns (90% of owners favor). What's with the gapthough? (on the next-to-last line, above) Why don't non-owners think this is a good idea?

Interesting poll. I'm a gun owner, but not your typical gun owner. I grew up in a house with guns (shot guns and hunting rifles) and inherited a number of my father's guns. I've never purchased my own. I have zero interest in really anything gun related. I'll never hunt or go to a shooting range on my own and I don't for one second feel that I'm "safer" with a gun nearby. I certainly don't believe that I need to have a gun in case of a necessary coup. That said, I grew up hunting and target shooting and understand the appeal.

Here's how I stand:
Ban on Assault Rifles: Torn. I don't see the need or desire to own one, but the desire is certainly there among many law abiding citizens. I guess a compromise would be to only allow purchase and use of assault rifles (inc. those with burst and automatic capability) at/by licensed ranges. That way people can still have fun using them and they can be locked up tight in a secure location. They're designed to kill and have no business in a home.

Federal Database: Absolutely.

Ban on High Capacity Ammunition Clips: What's "high capacity?" I can't see a need to have more than 7 rounds in a clip. I think anything over 10 is obscene. High capacity clips should be allowed at ranges with assault rifles, but locked and kept there.

Ban on Semi-Automatic Weapons: No way. There are too many types of semi-automatic weapons. My 1100 holds 5 rounds (incl. the one in the chamber) and gets jammed up after about 10+ rounds of shooting. Pump action shotguns aren't technically semi-auto, but they can be equally if not more dangerous (less jamming than many of the semi's). Semi-auto with small capacity clips can be useful in hunting, target shooting and even self defense (although I don't believe in guns for that). I think a ban on semi-automatic weapons would be a major blow to lawful gun owners everywhere and do little stem gun violence.

Ban on Online Sales of Ammunition: Eh, I don't know. Maybe monitor it better? Minimize the number of rounds that can be purchased online within a certain period of time? Limit bulk-buying of rounds to in-store purchases. There has to be a way to make online sales safer without a complete ban.

Background Checks at Gun Shows and Private Gun Sales: Absolutely. Self explanatory. It's a major loophole.

Armed Security Guards or Police at Schools: No. But increased random "drop-ins" by police wouldn't be a bad idea. If you must have an armed person in the school at all times, disguise the armed officer as the "full-time" DARE cop, an Air Marshal type person (maybe these rotate through school districts on a weekly/monthly basis) who blends in as someone with a guest pass or a visiting parent? Even at the high school level, have your armed guard or officer teach 2 periods of criminal justice or something. I hate the idea of elementary, middle and high school kids walking past an armed guard every morning. It would really put a damper on the carefree tone of school and detract from education. Even as an adult, I have a hard time "getting used" to the armed officers walking through the airport when I'm there. Kids won't get used to an armed guard, especially if he's carrying the type of firepower required to stop a lunatic with assault rifles, shot guns and hand guns.

I don't know that a single armed guard will prevent some mentally ill person from going postal in a school. If the school is 100,000 square feet, one guard may have a hard time doing really any good if the gunman with an assault rifle enters the opposite end of the school. Besides, the challenge of taking on an armed guard may be incentive for some nut jobs. The problem with these school shootings is that they're random and few and far between. There's no way to predict them, and there's (unfortunately) no way to defend them without compromising the entire educational process.

Laws to Prevent Mentally Ill From Owning:

Yeah. Definitely.

More Armed Teachers:

No. I think that having armed teachers creates an even more dangerous situation. One in which many non-professionals (which they are even if they get additional training) are now wielding guns. As they're non-professional, we can't know how they will react in a Newtown like situation. Bystanders could easily be shot (do you have any idea how inaccurate hand guns are? Especially in the hands of a recreational user?). Furthermore, you'll see more "accidents" like a teacher misplacing his gun, a student walking off with it, and potentially a crazy person previously without access to a gun getting one from a teacher and turning it on the class. Arming more teachers has the potential to be a disaster.


I'd see racing ahead on anything that has the support of 60%+ of gun owners (and hope that budgetary constraints nix armed school guards)

Israeli airport security has taught us that the best strategy is to look for killers (who are easy to spot if you're looking) and not weapons (which are everywhere).

I agree on both counts.


Re: why more non-gun owners don't support banning sales to mentally ill people. I'd imagine that it has something to do with a lot of non-gun owners being extreme bleeding hearts and can't bring themselves to "discriminating" against the mentally handicapped. I could be wrong though.
 
Statists love gun control as it removes the ability of the individual to defend themselves and empowers the state as the sole arbiter of protection. Since the state cannot protect the individual without being omnipresent, eventually individuals frustrated by an inability to be adequately protected will acquiesce to an increasingly powerful intrusive state. Power flows not only from strength but dependency. Do not trust any politicians which want to curtail the strength of individuals or foster dependency. Rarely do they "mean well" in what is most often nothing more than a path to greater power

The Bill of Rights amended to the Constitution were explicitly written to limit the power of government and protect citizens from abuses. It is very foolish of citizens to willingly surrender these protections.


"Re: why more non-gun owners don't support banning sales to mentally ill people. "

When the state can declare anyone it sees fit mentally ill without appeal for a defacto ban what's the point of legal ownership? I wouldn't put it past the maniacal likes of Bloomberg et al to declare all gun owners mentally ill and demand confiscation.
 
"Re: why more non-gun owners don't support banning sales to mentally ill people. "
When the state can declare anyone it sees fit mentally ill without appeal for a defacto ban what's the point of legal ownership? I wouldn't put it past the maniacal likes of Bloomberg et al to declare all gun owners mentally ill and demand confiscation.
Who said mental determinations would be "without appeal"?

But really, depending on where you live in Mass, your town's police department is applying a much more restrictive and much more arbitrary standard for gun permits already-they are free to ask "why do you want one? / why do you need one? / where will you keep it?" in the interview. The line between crazy and sane is actually much brighter and gun-friendlier than these questions (or than they appear).

I support such interviews (or some similar mechanism) because that *is* how the Israeli airport security establishes who the crazies are: Easy questions like:
- Why are you flying today?
- How long is your stay?
- How many in your party?
- Whom are you visiting?
- Where will you stay? What's the name of your hotel / tour group?
- Do you have any [random item] in your bags?

It isn't that any of these are criteria for fly/no-fly, its that people with homicidal reasons for flying give themselves away when they have to answer them with the same even demeanor or normal light jitters that sane/innocent people can.

And the courts are actually pretty good at sorting through things like "legally competent" (to stand trial, to direct own medical care, etc. etc.) if it comes to appeals.
 
LOTS of great breaking news today!

New York has passed strict gun control laws requiring background checks, preventing the sale of magazines larger than 7 bullets as well as assault weapons, and grandfathering in existing assault weapons owners, but requiring them to register their guns with the state. Anyone found in possession of a clip larger than 7 bullets or with an unregistered assault weapon will have their weapon ceased immediately.

This is very exciting legislation to see happening and more governors are looking to Cuomo as an example. Maryland has just recently expressed that it wants to enact the same laws.

Also...

Breaking from NBC News: Pres. Obama will call for universal background checks, ban on high capacity magazines and renewal of assault weapons ban Wednesday.
 
Because Chicago is the safest city in the US thanks to the same laws

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I'm so glad the War on Terror and War on Drugs have gone so well that we now can spend untold billions declaring war on simple boxes with springs holding more than some arbitrary number of cartridges.

In about a year I'm sure record number of black teenagers finding themselves in federal prison due to these laws is going to somehow be ignored like the real unemployment and economic statistics.
 
Israeli security practice doesn't support your case, as it involves profiling that wouldn't pass scrutiny in this country. (You can argue among yourselves whether that is a good or bad thing, but it explains why the harmless looking 80 year old white lady at Logan gets the rubber glove treatment.)

I'm sure our local hacks will be falling all over themselves to "one up" NY in the gun control sweepstakes.

An anecdote about local legislative expertise: at a 2012 Memorial Day event I was standing next to a state rep who last week grabbed some headlines on gun control. When the Civil War reenactors discharged their replica black powder Springfields in a salute (i.e. muzzles pointed skyward), he turned to me and asked in all seriousness "where do all the bullets go?" This Einstein is writing our new gun control laws.

Get ready to receive your rubber glove injection. It is only a question of how many fingers.
 
Re: Because Chicago is the safest city in the US thanks to the same laws

32723593.jpg


I'm so glad the War on Terror and War on Drugs have gone so well that we now can spend untold billions declaring war on simple boxes with springs holding more than some arbitrary number of cartridges.

In about a year I'm sure record number of black teenagers finding themselves in federal prison due to these laws is going to somehow be ignored like the real unemployment and economic statistics.

Your crazy side is showing.
 
I am not for banning all guns, but are for restrictions, such as assault weapons, background checks, training. The common refrain about gun owners protecting huge new power grabs by the federal government, which is held in check from turning into a ruthless dictatorship, by gun owners.

The argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny in my case. One, I think we have plenty of other systemic checks in place to stop this from happening. Two, I am much more worried about some gun owner having a bad day and shooting randomly, or say a person's kid who is depressed or mentally ill and breaks into his mother's gun safe and shoots in an elementary school, than I am about the government stripping people of basic freedoms. (Sorry, while we all hate taxes, a democratically elected official passing a law with a majority of support from a democratically elected legislature is not tyranny, no matter how much you hate the law itself).
Third, the recent regime overthrows in Tunisia and Egypt happened in countries without high gun ownership rates (<1 gun per person). We will never get to that point.
 

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