Quincy Center Redevelopment

[jdrinboston]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

I work across the street from this site and I knew something was wrong when they boarded up the site last week. Feels eerily like what Vornado did with Filenes .

Question: How can "rising construction costs" detail a project like this, yet the major projects downtown/Seaport seem to be going strong? It seems either StreetWorks didn't do their due diligence, or they are blowing smoke up Quincy's a**.

 

[617]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Filenes 2...I've heard that street works owes money to a couple ad firms...not sure what happened with that.

 

[Ron Newman]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

StreetWorks already failed to deliver on their promise to restore and reopen the Wollaston Theatre. That should have been a giant warning sign.

 

[jdrinboston]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

As I stare at the dead construction site across the street and think about this project, the more irritated I'm becoming. The low-rise building that was demolished - while butt ugly - was a viable commercial structure with most, if not all, of it's storefronts occupied. There were multiple doors with people walking in and out at various times of the day. If StreetWorks can't get their act together and get this built - based on the otherwise lack of construction activity in Quincy Center - this site will likely go empty for the next 5, 10, maybe 20 years or longer.

I'm a firm believer in urban infill development and bringing residents and new business opportunities into a lagging downtown area. But I think these projects need to be undertaken with a something of a homage to the Hippocratic oath: First do no harm. If the developer can't get this building started, they - along with the city that greenlighted the demolition - will have done just that.

For the life of me, I will never understand why cities issue demolition permits for viable buildings without proof of financing or a performance bond guaranteeing the new building's construction. Have we learned nothing from the Filene's project?

 

[underground]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Down scaling housing in this market definitely smells like something's going on. Everyone else is building as fast and furious as they can while rents keep rising, and this guy's cutting units? Yeah....

 

[choo]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

When they say construction costs go up, what exactly is going up? Obviously demand is high, but there still seems to be labor market slack without full employment. So is it capital equipment costs-cranes, cement capacity? Steel is a global commodity and has always been imported to MA, so I imagine those aren't skyrocketing compared to say 2005 costs. Anyone have any idea about the main drivers.

And yes, this is all a shame. I thought the whole development needed more housing from the get go and it would fill up.

 

[BarbaricManchurian]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Smells like bullshit!

 

[jdrinboston]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

For the record, StreetWorks has had a record of decent mixed-use development. They did a very nice development in West Hartford, Conn. that has been pretty successful. Something just seems off here.

 

[bobthebuilder]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

maybe they stumbled on an Indian burial ground?

Construction costs can easily go up for a number of reasons, but I would think that it could be figured out without slashing the scope of the project.

Quincy center is a great location with a TON of potential, and with a rebuilt quincy center station, all the shops/bars/restaurants in the area, residences would be in high demand.

Conspiracy theory: Fish has decided he wants construction stalled to somehow help him in his Olympic bid.

 

[Bergeron37]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

When they say construction costs go up, what exactly is going up? Obviously demand is high, but there still seems to be labor market slack without full employment. So is it capital equipment costs-cranes, cement capacity? Steel is a global commodity and has always been imported to MA, so I imagine those aren't skyrocketing compared to say 2005 costs. Anyone have any idea about the main drivers.

And yes, this is all a shame. I thought the whole development needed more housing from the get go and it would fill up.

Materials. The more demand for certain materials, the higher prices they can charge. Rising construction costs throw every developer for a loop on their proformas. A lot of people attribute rising construction costs as a bullshit excuse and while they may be right 50% of the time, the other 50% it can be a legitimate concern for the developer.

 

[whighlander]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Quincy shouldn't try to be a mini-Boston (Worcester and Providence handle that just fine). I'd be perfectly happy to end up with a South Shore version of Cambridge, Brookline or Evanston, IL for that matter.

AmFL -- What is the connection between "Cambridge, Brookline or Evanston, IL " -- and how is Cambridge any less than Worcester or Providence

I think the idiots who proposed and the idiots who bought into the scheme believed that just be cause they had a Red Line stop -- that they had a Kendall Sq. in the making

The reality of Cambridge / Boston is as much Cambridge as Boston -- or more properly -- Cambridge-Boston or vise versa

Cambridge-Boston is unique in the US -- its not:
Dallas -- Fort Worth
Minneapolis -- St. Paul
or even San Francisco -- Berkeley

The closest model in the US is San Francisco -Berkeley - Palo Alto -- an established important city with all that implies -- combined with two of the Worlds Greatest Universities

But even more integrated because of proximity --- Quincy is just a smaller version of Oakland -- its near-by -- But not really part of the discussion

 

[fattony]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Quincy is just a smaller version of Oakland -- its near-by -- But not really part of the discussion

wut?

Sounds like you haven't been to Oakland in the last 10 years. Or ever?

 

[whighlander]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

wut?

Sounds like you haven't been to Oakland in the last 10 years. Or ever?

As little as humanly possible -- mostly just passing through and mostly underneath

Kinda like Newark -- the only time I ever drive there except in passing through is by accident

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Just drive up Mulberry in Newark instead of Broadway. Big difference.

Boston-Cambridge should really be not that big of a difference than Boston-Quincy.

You said that this area is unique, and you're 100% right. It wasn't unique before NYC incorporated all of the boroughs. If they were separate still, you'd have two very similar areas. Quincy from a macro standpoint should really be one of Boston's "boroughs" and allowed to excel like NYC's have been able to.

Just overlay the footprints, and all of the "cities" surrounding Boston could easily be a part of it. It's neat that they are not, but also creates issues, and one of them is perception. Some of the Quincy perceptions are very much of the insular Bostonians from years gone by or a north shore/metro west perceptions that "Quincy? What is that, down the cape? Or isn't that down on the south shore?"

The major difference is that Kendall is right on the border with Boston, and you need to pass through 5 T stops before Quincy Center, and there isn't much of note along the way. It really is perception if you ask me. It's so much better connected to the city than most or all of Boston's neighbors to the north and west aside from Cambridge.

All that mess said. I like any city councilor who is complaining that you took away the nifty, tall building and gae us a suburban sprawl mess. It'd be nice to see the city government push them on issues like this.

 

[bobthebuilder]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Just drive up Mulberry in Newark instead of Broadway. Big difference.

Boston-Cambridge should really be not that big of a difference than Boston-Quincy.

You said that this area is unique, and you're 100% right. It wasn't unique before NYC incorporated all of the boroughs. If they were separate still, you'd have two very similar areas. Quincy from a macro standpoint should really be one of Boston's "boroughs" and allowed to excel like NYC's have been able to.

Just overlay the footprints, and all of the "cities" surrounding Boston could easily be a part of it. It's neat that they are not, but also creates issues, and one of them is perception. Some of the Quincy perceptions are very much of the insular Bostonians from years gone by or a north shore/metro west perceptions that "Quincy? What is that, down the cape? Or isn't that down on the south shore?"

The major difference is that Kendall is right on the border with Boston, and you need to pass through 5 T stops before Quincy Center, and there isn't much of note along the way. It really is perception if you ask me. It's so much better connected to the city than most or all of Boston's neighbors to the north and west aside from Cambridge.

All that mess said. I like any city councilor who is complaining that you took away the nifty, tall building and gae us a suburban sprawl mess. It'd be nice to see the city government push them on issues like this.

Have you heard of any such councilman? I haven't. Just curious, cause I'd like to read what they're saying if its out there.


Regarding the idea of treating the communities just outside of Boston as "boroughs", I think is a great idea. I mean, Brookline was already once part of Boston, why not again? Just seems like an opening that's looking for the last puzzle piece. Annex, Cambridge, sommerville, Quincy, Chelsea, all the areas that you already associate as loosely being part of Boston. One of the biggest benefactors would be the Taxi industry, they could be more uniform across all reaches and you could take cabs from Boston/Cambridge without pissing off the cabby.

Perhaps this would also give a more "team" approach to how we address our public transit issues, and give more push to get things done, or maybe I've just completely lost it.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

There is no political reason for the surrounding cities and towns in the metro-Boston area join the City of Boston, and a million reasons for them not to. New England has always been into hyper-local politics and that shows no signs of changing.

It would be nice if there was more coordination within the metro-Boston area. Normally that's a county level duty. Of course in Massachusetts, counties are more or less powerless entities that manage the jails. Even that doesn't help us because the metro-area is divided up into four counties. Short of annexation by Boston (which really, what's in it for the towns and cities involved?), if you want to get more regional cooperation in metro-Boston first you have to break that centuries-old tradition of hyper-local town-meeting self-governance that most of the suburbs operate by (good luck with that). Then you have to completely reorganize the county structure in the state. Put all of metro-Boston in one county, and remove power from individual municipalities and give it to that county structure.

Of course it will never happen. I'm not even advocating it happening. But that's probably what would have to happen.

 

[Hutchison]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Have you heard of any such councilman? I haven't. Just curious, cause I'd like to read what they're saying if its out there.

From the Patriot Ledger - "Quincy Center project 'paused,' councilors ask why"

Although Heapes and members of Mayor Thomas Koch’s administration asserted that the pause in construction is no cause for concern, City Councilors Doug Gutro and Brian McNamee were more skeptical. Both raised concerns about the developer’s decision to abandon its plan for a 15-story steel-framed apartment building on Chestnut Street, and build a six-story, wood-framed complex instead.

“You had a beautiful 15-story building that would have offered vistas of the Blue Hills, Quincy Bay and Boston, and we stepped away from that,” McNamee said. “I can’t think of anything that’s more saleable than that kind of a structure to set a perfect tone for this development. When you propose smaller structures, wood structures, it’s starting to look like the the Weymouth Air Station housing model.”

For a fairly complete overview of what is happening you should check out the Patriot Ledger's most recent article - Developer says Quincy Center project will get back on track http://www.patriotledger.com/news/x919107578/Developer-says-Quincy-Center-project-will-get-back-on-track#ixzz2lJ2sIE4b

 

[nico]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Seamus, I feel like you just said that there is no difference between Quincy and Cambridge, and then listed the differences between Quincy and Cambridge. Cambridge has better proximity to the parts of Boston that people want to be close to. In addition, Cambridge is itself a generator rather than just a taker. The same cannot be said for Quincy - certainly not to the same degree.

As for Quincy being "so much better connected to the city than most or all of Boston's neighbors to the north and west aside from Cambridge." Hmm. Quincy is connected to outer parts of Boston, so I might equate Quincy to Revere, but Quincy is certainly not as "connected" to the city as Cambridge or Somerville. While bordering Dorchester means that Quincy borders a place with a Boston zip code, it does not mean that this proximity is as valuable an asset as greater access to the Back Bay, DTC, Waterfront, etc. That is, technically bordering Boston does not make Quincy any closer to where you want to be in Boston than Medford or Malden, which have as good or better access to DTC and immediately surrounding areas than Quincy.

If you're not generating value (the way that Cambridge does, separately and in addition the benefit it receives from its proximity to Boston) what matters is what part of the city you are close to. Parts south were annexed whereas parts north, for the most part, were not. Refer to the Ferdinand thread where Dudley is identified as the geographic center of Boston. With that in mind, consider that if you live just north of Boston, you are closer to the South End than someone living just south of Boston. That is, people living just north of Boston are closer to all of the places in Boston that make Boston desirable - the places and institutions that people want to get to.

Finally, I would argue better public transit to the north. As for driving, consider that you hit the Boston line just before coming over the Zakim bridge going south. Now consider driving north on 93 from the South. You leave Quincy and still have a quite long way to go before you're "in the city."

 

[Czervik.Construction]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

This thread is 4 years old and still nothing. Is this plan too ambitious?

 

[DominusNovus]

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Seamus, I feel like you just said that there is no difference between Quincy and Cambridge, and then listed the differences between Quincy and Cambridge. Cambridge has better proximity to the parts of Boston that people want to be close to. In addition, Cambridge is itself a generator rather than just a taker. The same cannot be said for Quincy - certainly not to the same degree.

As for Quincy being "so much better connected to the city than most or all of Boston's neighbors to the north and west aside from Cambridge." Hmm. Quincy is connected to outer parts of Boston, so I might equate Quincy to Revere, but Quincy is certainly not as "connected" to the city as Cambridge or Somerville. While bordering Dorchester means that Quincy borders a place with a Boston zip code, it does not mean that this proximity is as valuable an asset as greater access to the Back Bay, DTC, Waterfront, etc. That is, technically bordering Boston does not make Quincy any closer to where you want to be in Boston than Medford or Malden, which have as good or better access to DTC and immediately surrounding areas than Quincy.

If you're not generating value (the way that Cambridge does, separately and in addition the benefit it receives from its proximity to Boston) what matters is what part of the city you are close to. Parts south were annexed whereas parts north, for the most part, were not. Refer to the Ferdinand thread where Dudley is identified as the geographic center of Boston. With that in mind, consider that if you live just north of Boston, you are closer to the South End than someone living just south of Boston. That is, people living just north of Boston are closer to all of the places in Boston that make Boston desirable - the places and institutions that people want to get to.

Finally, I would argue better public transit to the north. As for driving, consider that you hit the Boston line just before coming over the Zakim bridge going south. Now consider driving north on 93 from the South. You leave Quincy and still have a quite long way to go before you're "in the city."

When you look at the number of stops, they're pretty much the same; 6 for Cambridge (including Davis) and 5 for Quincy (including Braintree), and both on the same line, which happens to be probably the best line, in terms of usefulness (the blue line's cars are in better condition, but its of limited utility compared to the Red). I don't see how Downtown crossing is much of an issue; Quincy goes right to it on the Red line.

Now, granted, abutting Dorchester across a river isn't as good for property values as abutting Back Bay and Beacon hill across a river, but its not the worst part of Dorchester, and Quincy is mashed together with Milton along 93. And it doesn't have Harvard or MIT, but Umass doesn't hurt.