Quincy Center Redevelopment

Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

nico said:
Seamus, I feel like you just said that there is no difference between Quincy and Cambridge, and then listed the differences between Quincy and Cambridge. Cambridge has better proximity to the parts of Boston that people want to be close to. In addition, Cambridge is itself a generator rather than just a taker. The same cannot be said for Quincy - certainly not to the same degree.

As for Quincy being "so much better connected to the city than most or all of Boston's neighbors to the north and west aside from Cambridge." Hmm. Quincy is connected to outer parts of Boston, so I might equate Quincy to Revere, but Quincy is certainly not as "connected" to the city as Cambridge or Somerville. While bordering Dorchester means that Quincy borders a place with a Boston zip code, it does not mean that this proximity is as valuable an asset as greater access to the Back Bay, DTC, Waterfront, etc. That is, technically bordering Boston does not make Quincy any closer to where you want to be in Boston than Medford or Malden, which have as good or better access to DTC and immediately surrounding areas than Quincy.

If you're not generating value (the way that Cambridge does, separately and in addition the benefit it receives from its proximity to Boston) what matters is what part of the city you are close to. Parts south were annexed whereas parts north, for the most part, were not. Refer to the Ferdinand thread where Dudley is identified as the geographic center of Boston. With that in mind, consider that if you live just north of Boston, you are closer to the South End than someone living just south of Boston. That is, people living just north of Boston are closer to all of the places in Boston that make Boston desirable - the places and institutions that people want to get to.

Finally, I would argue better public transit to the north. As for driving, consider that you hit the Boston line just before coming over the Zakim bridge going south. Now consider driving north on 93 from the South. You leave Quincy and still have a quite long way to go before you're "in the city."
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Read the actual words and not the ones you want. I said they shouldn't be that different, not that they aren't. The connection specifically excluded Cambridge for the exact reasons you mentioned. And you really just backed up the perception thing. I also believe highway access is better from the south and more direct to get where you want to go, coupled with the Red and commuter lines. Surface roads IMO are easier to cross the border than in some places such as Chelsea & Revere.

I think the north is better served by the commuter line, but would much rather take the Red to DTX than the Orange(although I ride both every week at some point or another), but I fail to see how the Orange is better access to DTX than Red aside from a couple less stops. The commuter rail from south also brings you to either back bay or south station or both. Much preferred to North Station at this time. Working in Kendall I find this a huge benefit as I work with people from the North who will not take mass transit specifically because of the limited connection from here to North Station.

Much of this I attribute to the better industrial uses north of the city in decades past. That has chopped many of those communities up and separated them from the city in many places, with too many highways everywhere. Again, this is the south shore guy perspective, but I see this very visibly whenever I am north of the city, and have noticed it for 20 years.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

It's the closest thing to the right kind of ambitiousness around here you will find, and I might say not ambitious enough.

But in the land of union labor, it becomes difficult to turn a profit in a quick enough time for lenders and developers. Because, even though the area should be a "can't miss" it is a risk and scares people around here.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

What's the evidence that union labor is the problem here?

I'm also not sure this is a "can't miss" area, at least not for a developer looking for a good ROI. Prices are up across the board, but we're still seeing the same old price drop patterns as usual. You can still get a single family detached house in Dorchester for a reasonable amount. Quincy Center is even further from Downtown, and not exactly considered either historically desirable or even up and coming. That's not to trash on Quincy, which is a great place to find moderate priced housing, but we're either still developing parcels or have parcels to be developed in the Seaport, Southie proper, Fenway, the South End, East Cambridge, North Cambridge, Somerville, Charlestown, the Fairmount Corridor, etc. Get those places finished and Quincy Center gets a lot more interesting, but I think we're pretty far away from that happening.
 
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Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Well..... I don't think Quincy as it's own city with it's own bills cares to let some other municipality get something that they think they can get. As an area it's all connected, but a city needs to look out for its own.

It is not the problem. It's a factor. That drives up all construction costs here, especially close to the city.

There's no reason for a sizeable city with good transit to make itself more appealing to the up and coming professionals who want city living, but cannot afford it.

I also think my definitions of reasonable priced homes or good priced homes is quite different than yours.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Poor Quincy. I had a monorail for sale, I'd definitely approach City Hall.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

^ Ha, ha.

Can we get a casino to open here? That, I could support.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

But main streets still all cracked and broken.....
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

Seamus, I agree, "this is the south shore guy perspective."
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

BussesAin'tTrains said:
There is no political reason for the surrounding cities and towns in the metro-Boston area join the City of Boston, and a million reasons for them not to. New England has always been into hyper-local politics and that shows no signs of changing.

It would be nice if there was more coordination within the metro-Boston area. Normally that's a county level duty. Of course in Massachusetts, counties are more or less powerless entities that manage the jails. Even that doesn't help us because the metro-area is divided up into four counties. Short of annexation by Boston (which really, what's in it for the towns and cities involved?), if you want to get more regional cooperation in metro-Boston first you have to break that centuries-old tradition of hyper-local town-meeting self-governance that most of the suburbs operate by (good luck with that). Then you have to completely reorganize the county structure in the state. Put all of metro-Boston in one county, and remove power from individual municipalities and give it to that county structure.

Of course it will never happen. I'm not even advocating it happening. But that's probably what would have to happen.
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Busses -- there is a method which could be very beneficial and yet preserve local government -- that is the creation of a Metro County with real power -- I proposed such and tried to get it accepted as a newspaper op-ed in the Glob a few years ago when the Middlesex and the rest of the original counties were being emasculated by the legislature

After the creation fo Metro County -- The rest of the external Counties can chose to continue in their rump status and be joined by the Rump Middlesex, Rum Essex, Rump Norfolk -- Suffolk is entirely absorbed -- although Worcester County might want to follow the Metro Model

Metro County would be drawn so that all of I-495 is enclosed and all towns extending beyond I-495 are included

Metro County would have a Legislature with two chambers:
and upper chamber - -1 senator per city or town
a lower chamber divided by population districts -- about 10,000 per representative

There would be an executive and the existing courts within would be incorporated

The real reason for the Metro County is that the Commonwealth would transfer:
MBTA
Massport
BCEC & Hynes
Community Colleges within the Metro County
Parking Authority
All Parks and Recreation facilities within the Metro County

The Commonwealth can concentrate on Commonwealth-wide responsibilities

Metro County would be the one-stop-shopping point for everything Metro

The Cities, Town and even Neighborhoods could manage and control their local issues that didn't cross any boundaries
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

JohnAKeith said:
^ Ha, ha.

Can we get a casino to open here? That, I could support.
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John,

Quincy once was a major driver of employment for the entire South Shore

A fe decades ago there a was a very thriving shipbuilding facility with state-of-the-art technology [largest bridge crane in a shipyard in the world]. etc. There were surrounding supporting industry such as Raytheon Divisions connected with the Navy

Then the Shipyard went down the drain, the others left and Quincy was left with a nice old ship USS Salem permanently moored as a Shipbuilding Museum

They got a small consolation prize in a temporary and then permanent usage of part of the shipyard to support the Deer Island Sewage Treatment Plant

Today Quincy is mostly known for:
1) Granite Link Golf Course -- another byproduct this time from the Big Dig
2) Presidents {J. Adams, J.Q. Adams} not too far from hometown of GHW Bush [Milton]
3) USS Salem
4) what used to be called State Street South -- Quincy Center T Station
5) Wollaston Beach and Quincy Shore Drive
6) Chickatawbut Observation Tower

Certainly not the downtown
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

The idea of a 'metro' county does sound like a good idea to me; what if the counties were reorganized to better represent reality, and then delegated some actual authority?
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

DominusNovus said:
The idea of a 'metro' county does sound like a good idea to me; what if the counties were reorganized to better represent reality, and then delegated some actual authority?
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EDIT: I like when threads stay on topic and my post was not.

To bring this back to Quincy; the city of Quincy would be in "Boston" County, as it is clearly a core part of the urban area. This project had a chance to further incorporate Quincy into the urban core. This project stalling could have long-term consequences for a city that is denser than Worcester and more populous than Somerville
 
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Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

For future posts on county structure:

DominusNovus made a thread in Design a Better Boston for this discussion.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

bigeman312 said:
EDIT: I like when threads stay on topic and my post was not.

To bring this back to Quincy; the city of Quincy would be in "Boston" County, as it is clearly a core part of the urban area. This project had a chance to further incorporate Quincy into the urban core. This project stalling could have long-term consequences for a city that is denser than Worcester and more populous than Somerville
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Bigeman --- if the City of Quincy wants an important role to play in the New Boston / Cambridge -- let the CofQ fix its schools to meet suburban standards

Then with relatively large amounts of housing conducive to families coupled with good T axis to core Boston / Cambridge -- CofQ could become a popular place for families in the less than top income range of the New Knowledge Economy
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

whighlander said:
Bigeman --- if the City of Quincy wants an important role to play in the New Boston / Cambridge -- let the CofQ fix its schools to meet suburban standards

Then with relatively large amounts of housing conducive to families coupled with good T axis to core Boston / Cambridge -- CofQ could become a popular place for families in the less than top income range of the New Knowledge Economy
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What are you talking about? This already describes Quincy. If you can't afford Newton or Brookline, but want a semi-urban suburban experience, good T "axis(?)" with pretty good schools, Quincy is on the short list.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

bigeman312 said:
What are you talking about? This already describes Quincy. If you can't afford Newton or Brookline, but want a semi-urban suburban experience, good T "axis(?)" with pretty good schools, Quincy is on the short list.
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Thats why I moved here.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

bigeman312 said:
What are you talking about? This already describes Quincy. If you can't afford Newton or Brookline, but want a semi-urban suburban experience, good T "axis(?)" with pretty good schools, Quincy is on the short list.
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Not including the reference to Suburban-quality schools

If you want to try to attract the Top-level Knowledgeworker young families with school-age kids you need to approach top 25 school districts in Greater Boston

From Boston Magazine 2012 50 Best Greater Boston High Schools
1 Weston High Weston
2 Lexington High Lexington
3 Dover-Sherborn Regional High Dover
4 Concord-Carlisle High Concord-Carlisle
5 Wellesley Senior High Wellesley
6 Wayland High Wayland
7 Newton South High Newton ---- Top suburb on the subway
8 Sharon High Sharon
9 Acton-Boxborough Regional*High School Acton
10 Bedford High School Bedford
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
11 Newton North High Newton
12 Belmont High Belmont
13 Westwood High Westwood
14 Needham High Needham
15 Brookline High Brookline --- top inner suburb
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
20 Boston Latin Boston --- top city
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
25 Manchester Essex Regional High School Manchester*Essex Regional
_______________________________________________________________
30 Norwell High Norwell


35 Cambridge Rindge and Latin Cambridge

40 Arlington High Arlington

42 Foxborough High Foxborough
43 Burlington High Burlington
44 Ipswich High Ipswich
45 Canton High Canton
48 Walpole High Walpole
49 Swampscott High Swampscott
50 Millis High School Millis
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If you are not on the Top 50 list -- No Knowledgeworker with aspirations to have a "next-gen" family primed for moving up the scale will even consider a place such as Quincy unless they can afford private education

Note that none of the Subway T-connected inner suburbs except for Cambridge, Brookline and Newton could crack that list -- and only Brookline and Newton made it into the relatively rarefied Top 25 and only one of the two Newton HS broke into the elite Top 10

Watertown, Sommerville, Malden and Medford were not even in the running.

I don't think Quincy is in the top 100 school districts in Eastern MA -- they need to get into that level even to have a shot at the 2nd tier Knowledgeworker families
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

These rankings clearly show that Weston students are 1 better than Lexington students, and 2 better than DS students. And I guess that means something to someone, because it really seems like the ranking to ranking difference should mean something quantifiable with regards to educational outcomes.

Or they don't.

And that assumes the people of Quincy have even a shred of desire or need to be Weston.
 
Re: $1 billion development proposed to reshape downtown Quincy

One can argue about the accuracy and utility of any ranking til the cows come home--lots to poke holes through. But if it is not clear/obvious that by some standard Quincy schools are competitive, I think whighlander's observation is an accurate one in terms of attracting young families.
 
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