Radian (Dainty Dot) | 120 Kingston Street | Chinatown

[DZH22]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Hey dude, you said this:

"It seems clear that forumers like joebos and nm88 don't care that the majority of major projects slated for Boston end up failing,..."

I'm not bothering. You're a joke.

It was a clear response to "DZH22 just proved NM88's point. Height seems to be the only thing that matters to him."

I too can take something and twist it to serve my purpose. However, as a wise man named John Rambo once said, you drew first blood. At least I attempt to defend a position instead of just pointing a finger and then walking away.

I also think my extensive knowledge of projects around the world adds a particular element to my disappointment that many of you don't understand. Our city has among the most arduous processes on earth to get buildings built, and then we end up with the destruction of the dainty dot for a low quality tower, and Waterside Place, and the Kensington's hideous glass/crown/wash st frontage, and a giant black wall fronting the common. So yes, I'm disappointed. At least I state reasons for my opinions.

I'm the one who shouldn't be responding. You haven't brought anything new to the table. "DZH22 is a joke". Thanks for your valuable insight.

 

[kz1000ps]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Holy cow you guys.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Oh I thought there was something going on here. Nevermind.

 

[shawn]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Oh hi I thought I was on Archboston, not Skyscrapercity.com. My mistake, damn Chrome.

 

[atlantaden]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Is your "period" key broken? Otherwise you may want to lay off the coffee, or sugar, or coke, or whatever has you spazzing out. Just saying.

Haha, DZ, It's the Italian in me! I guess I use the exclamation points in place of my hand gestures! I reread my posts and damn, you're right, I don't see one period!! Having said that, my explanation points are quite gentle compared to the barbs and insults that I've just seen thrown around here on this thread.

 

[jdrinboston]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

I was in Montreal last week and took a walk around one morning to see some of their building projects. They have 7 buildings in various stages of site prep/construction, with 2 of them being over 500-feet. (The city has a cap of roughly 700' to prevent buildings from topping Mount Royal) For me, it's a fascinating, if somewhat frustrating city from an urban experience perspective. The problem for me is that despite the fact that their new developments are higher than Boston's (Filene's exluded), I always come back feeling like Boston has a better future ahead of it - that the fundementals of our urban core and economy are much better, yet they are building higher right now.

I'm excited about the prospect of Filene's and Copley Tower rising and I hope the Christian Science Project happens. But if you told me we would never see an 800 or 900 footer in the city, I'm not sure I would be heartbroken. I'm admittedly conflicted.

 

[617]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

I think the only plot of land in the city left that would support an 800-900 footer is Winthrop sq...otherwise we may never see one.

Back to topic - just walked by 120 Kingston, is this thing topped off? It looks like it but I only counted 25 floors

 

[Downburst]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

I think the only plot of land in the city left that would support an 800-900 footer is Winthrop sq...otherwise we may never see one.

Back to topic - just walked by 120 Kingston, is this thing topped off? It looks like it but I only counted 25 floors

Wasn't there an 800' proposal over the South Bay interchange at some point? (Would that be cut by the FAA if it was ever seriously pursued?)

Anyways, yes, I believe it's topped. I haven't seen the project for myself in a few weeks but recent pictures haven't shown any more steel beams rising.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

The Dainty Dot was lost when the developer decided to put the underground parking garage -- originally proposed for 180 spaces -- above ground. What then happened was a development version of three card monte, with the developer being the dealer, the BRA the shill, and the public the mark. When Shen mumbled about not wanting an iconic building, that's was said, IMO, because the developer was already moving away from an iconic building.

Preserving the facade made sense when there was leasable space behind the facade. But now, this is a building that doesn't relate to Chinatown, doesn't relate to its neighbors other than reflecting their images, --it might as well be in Woburn or Worcester. And IMO, a worse result than the Kensington. The Kensington will be largely hidden from view when all is said and done, --there is no hiding this mediocrity.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

The Dainty Dot was lost when the developer decided to put the underground parking garage -- originally proposed for 180 spaces -- above ground. What then happened was a development version of three card monte, with the developer being the dealer, the BRA the shill, and the public the mark. When Shen mumbled about not wanting an iconic building, that's was said, IMO, because the developer was already moving away from an iconic building.

Preserving the facade made sense when there was leasable space behind the facade. But now, this is a building that doesn't relate to Chinatown, doesn't relate to its neighbors other than reflecting their images, --it might as well be in Woburn or Worcester. And IMO, a worse result than the Kensington. The Kensington will be largely hidden from view when all is said and done, --there is no hiding this mediocrity.

I think this assessment is spot on, but I don't think it's wise to fault Shen here. My sense is that when a developer doesn't like Shen's or any other BRA planner's position, he/she talks to the Mayor or upper management in the economic development wing, and Bob's your uncle.

 

[KentXie]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

The Dainty Dot was lost when the developer decided to put the underground parking garage -- originally proposed for 180 spaces -- above ground. What then happened was a development version of three card monte, with the developer being the dealer, the BRA the shill, and the public the mark. When Shen mumbled about not wanting an iconic building, that's was said, IMO, because the developer was already moving away from an iconic building.

Preserving the facade made sense when there was leasable space behind the facade. But now, this is a building that doesn't relate to Chinatown, doesn't relate to its neighbors other than reflecting their images, --it might as well be in Woburn or Worcester. And IMO, a worse result than the Kensington. The Kensington will be largely hidden from view when all is said and done, --there is no hiding this mediocrity.

When did the developers decide to switch from underground to above ground parking? Was this before Shen made the iconic remark or after and how far in the process were the developers at that point in redesigning the tower? I'm just wondering because it seems like you have some kind of inside information regarding this project.

 

[617]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Basically the BRA let Chinatown ruin this building based on their non-stop criticism...the developer had to make numerous concessions.

That being said I still like it...much better than Kensington and waterside, on par with Exeter. Wish it was 100ft taller though.

 

[KentXie]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Basically the BRA let Chinatown ruin this building based on their non-stop criticism...the developer had to make numerous concessions.

That being said I still like it...much better than Kensington and waterside, on par with Exeter. Wish it was 100ft taller though.

IIRC and I believe I do, Chinatown was in support of the original proposal, not against. It was Kairos Shen and the BRA that was against it.

 

[617]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

I went back and re-read some of the first few pages of the topic and it sounded like Chinatown wasn't going to support more luxury housing.

 

[atlantaden]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Beautiful, But Tall...
...Say Residents About Proposed Housing Tower
by Adam Smith
Apr 20, 2007


The developer said his proposed 29-story housing tower for Chinatown would be more than a building, it would be a work of art, iconic.

Several people at two recent meetings about the proposal agreed. Compliments of the tower's design included "beautiful" and "cool."

But the building proposal has at least two major problems, say some community activists. The high-rise's height is about three times that allowed by zoning. Also, the building's development would destroy much of a historic brownstone, the Dainty Dot Hosiery building at 120 Kingston St. Built in 1889, the Dainty Dot is one of the oldest remaining wholesale buildings in Boston's central business district.

The proximity of the tower to the future Chinatown Park also has some residents concerned that the green space, part of the Rose Kennedy Greenway, will become nothing more than the building's backyard.

But developer Ori Ron, who's proposing the 180-unit tower, promises that he's a respectable developer who won't run from the demands of abutters and neighborhoods; instead, he'll seek to work with them.

"With Chinatown, this project will fly; without, this project will go nowhere," Ron said at a meeting earlier this month, after acknowledging that "some groups support us and others don't."

One group that has already expressed strong concerns over the project is the Chinese Progressive Association, which protested several previously-proposed high-rise luxury housing towers in Chinatown. The association, along with several residents, fear that the neighborhood is quickly losing its cultural identity and historic character, as expensive glass-and-steel towers replace old low-rise buildings.

One longtime Chinatown resident, Marie Moy, who attended an April 12 public meeting about the tower, fought back tears as she told of the changes in the neighborhood, and of her concerns about Ron's project. "We'd like to have some parts of Chinatown preserved," she said.

Stephanie Fan, who volunteered in the design of the Chinatown Park, said that though she feels Ron's building is "very beautiful," she wished "the size and scale was smaller."

As it's now proposed, she said, the Chinatown Park will "look like it's the backyard of the project."
Link

The community as a whole certainly didn't help the original design. Granted this isn't the whole article but all you have to do is go to the first page on this thread and scroll down to see it.

 

[KentXie]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

I went back and re-read some of the first few pages of the topic and it sounded like Chinatown wasn't going to support more luxury housing.

Yes, but there were a few in Chinatown that supported it, saying it was beautiful, and some even wanted it to be taller. I would hardly say that Chinatown ruined it with "non-stop criticism," at least compared to the rabid level you see in projects proposed elsewhere in the city.

 

[KentXie]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

The community as a whole certainly didn't help the original design. Granted this isn't the whole article but all you have to do is go to the first page on this thread and scroll down to see it.

Yes but you only need to read the next article after that to see support for it as well.

The developer said his proposed 29-story housing tower for Chinatown would be more than a building, it would be a work of art, iconic.

Several people at two recent meetings about the proposal agreed. Compliments of the tower's design included "beautiful" and "cool."

...

A few people who attended the April 12 meeting appeared to support the tower without condition.

"I think that this building should be taller," said Tony Yee, president of Chinatown Main Street. "Boston is like the corn fields compared to every other city."

Of the historic Dainty Dot building, Yee said: "If I had my way, I'd take a bulldozer and plow it down."

 

[atlantaden]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

Kent, of course, I get that, that's why, if you read my comment, I said the community as a whole didn't help the original design. And to see the whole article, just go to the first page of the thread, I just didn't want to post the whole article but wanted to show that Shen/BRA wasn't totally to blame for the original design being scrapped. It's an absolute shame that the original proposal didn't fly.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

The game of three card monte as played on the sidewalk of 120 Kingston

1.) Original proposal, March 2007.
180 residential units on floors 4 through 29, ground floor lobby and retail (or possibly restaurant) space, and up to 160 enclosed accessory parking spaces (both above and below grade) within building. The new building will rise behind the preserved portions of the Auchmuty Building, set back diagonally to a depth of 40 feet behind the remaining corner bays. On the Greenway side of the new structure, active retail and residential spaces facing Chinatown Park are proposed. 325' without the mechanicals, 341 feet with the mechanicals. 270,000 sq ft based on the FAR. Ming Cze was the architect.

2.) Revised proposal October 2007
Incorporate two colors of masonry into what had been designed as a glass tower, reduce the footprint of each floor by about 500 square feet, relocating a floor of parking underground, and adding a 26-by-60-foot decorative glass wall on the exterior to enhance the park. Building now 320 feet with (20 feet?of) mechanicals, 27 stories. Dainty Dot facade preserved. Architect is now Elkus Manfredi.

3.) Revision #2, May 2008. Brokered by the BRA.
Building height (without mechanicals) 265 feet. Condominiums reduced from 180 to 147. Parking spaces reduced from 156 to 96. Gross floor area of 209,000 sq ft.

"We're happy," said Boston Redevelopment Authority director John Palmieri. "There may be a few critics, but overall we've improved the design program considerably and satisfied some of the more significant neighborhood issues."

[The developer] maintained he could not afford to pay the cost of saving the facade and also reduce the number of units in the building. "Our design team agrees," said Palmieri. "It was a 'facade-ectomy' anyway, an awkward looking development program."

4.) Revision #3. Notice of project change. August 2010
Building without mechanicals is now 270 feet, instead of 261 feet. Mechanicals are 20 feet instead of 10 feet. Parking spaces reduced from 96 to 70. 147 residential units are back up to 200. Gross floor area increases to 229,000 sq ft.


5.) Building specs as per the contractor, Suffolk, October 2012.
Residential units increase from 200 to 240. Parking spaces remain at 70, all above grade. Square footage is up to 293,000 sq ft.

In essence, over five years, the developer gave up two floors, 50 feet of building height, added 60 more residential units, decreased the parking spaces from about one per unit to one for every 3.5 units, placed all the parking above grade, reduced the retail footprint, increased the total building size by about 23,000 sq ft, and tore down the Dainty Dot. The developer also cheapened the exterior materials, and almost certainly has cheapened the finishes in the residential units. He saved big by not excavating for a garage, but by having a smaller garage above grade, lost income from renting/leasing/selling the four floors of the Dainty Dot that were to be preserved to a depth of 40 feet.

The developer was also to fund new subsidized housing at Oxford and Ping On streets, 48 units. The number of units being funded was reduced to 38 in August 2010. The BRA approved this project in May 2008, and nothing has happened since.

 

[617]

Re: 120 Kingston, 29 Story Tower in Chinatown

1 parking spot for every 3.5 units? That is a joke.