Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

[citylover94]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Personally I would suggest that Central Station be cut partially to save money and partially to increase the capacity of the tunnel. I do not think it is as important to have as the other stations and based on other analysis I have seen by Alon Levy and F-Line it sounds as though it would negatively impact operations by decreasing tunnel capacity and also inflate the cost because of how complicated building the cavern and inserting the exits would be.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: North-South Rail Link

By Shirley Leung GLOBE STAFFhttp://linkis.com/www.bostonglobe.com/Mv1ar

 

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Not really...

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Personally I would suggest that Central Station be cut partially to save money and partially to increase the capacity of the tunnel. I do not think it is as important to have as the other stations and based on other analysis I have seen by Alon Levy and F-Line it sounds as though it would negatively impact operations by decreasing tunnel capacity and also inflate the cost because of how complicated building the cavern and inserting the exits would be.

150 ft. below ground. That's going to be a constipated set of escalators given that the Blue level is pretty compact and there's little space for much in the way of a concourse. South Station and North Station have multiple levels with more spacious concourses that the NSRL stations can tap into. Central Station's going to have wretched pedestrian movement in addition to having fewer, shorter platforms traffic-clogging the tunnel. It's in the concept because it was in the previous concept, but I can't realistically see that surviving first cut.


Nothing new with the renders. That's pretty much exactly what they had before with the Dot Ave./Channel alignment, which was preferred over the Dewey Square alignment because it steered clear of the Federal Reserve building. Don't think those North Station platforms are drawn-to-scale, however; that surface map has them placed at Haymarket, not NS.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Someone has been busy, some good info here: http://www.northsouthraillink.org/alignment/

So, under this scheme, "North Station" would be much closer to "Haymarket" (Orange/Green) and not "North Station" (Orange/Green). Am I reading this right?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: North-South Rail Link

So, under this scheme, "North Station" would be under "Haymarket" (Orange/Green) and not "North Station" (Orange/Green). Am I reading this right?

Mistake in the render, methinks. If you go by the depth schematic, it's directly underneath Causeway St.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Mistake in the render, methinks. If you go by the depth schematic, it's directly underneath Causeway St.

Okay. I noticed the discrepancy between the map and the diagram. That makes more sense. I figured it was either a mistake, or that the platforms needed to be further South due to the North Side incline.

 

[tangent]

Re: North-South Rail Link

So, under this scheme, "North Station" would be much closer to "Haymarket" (Orange/Green) and not "North Station" (Orange/Green). Am I reading this right?

From the cross section it looks like the platform would be between Causeway St and N. Washington St. So, yes really in between the Orangle Line North Station and Haymarket, but more towards North Station.

 

[Shepard]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I know this is talked about often, but can anyone give the definitive list of second-order benefits? Things like freeing up the Grand Junction? I'm wondering if these are being studied also, or at least mentioned as aggregate benefits.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: North-South Rail Link

From the cross section it looks like the platform would be between Causeway St and N. Washington St. So, yes really in between the Orangle Line North Station and Haymarket, but more towards North Station.

Platforms would be 1000 ft. (for taking a 12-car Northeast Regional), so in actual distance it would stretch back almost that far. I would expect egresses, however, to only go on the North Station side because (per the depth render) Haymarket end is blocked by I-93 upstairs while North Station isn't.

 

[tangent]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I know this is talked about often, but can anyone give the definitive list of second-order benefits? Things like freeing up the Grand Junction? I'm wondering if these are being studied also, or at least mentioned as aggregate benefits.

Problem with saying that freeing up Grand Junction for something like a Green Line branch over to West Station... is that GLX is now considered so over budget that I don't think this would be seen as a benefit until costs can be brought back under control.

But yes I think it is the #1 "fringe" benefit in my book would be to free up Grand Junction for a future green line branch.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I know this is talked about often, but can anyone give the definitive list of second-order benefits? Things like freeing up the Grand Junction? I'm wondering if these are being studied also, or at least mentioned as aggregate benefits.

Frequencies frequencies frequencies. The limiter to total commuter rail throughput today is Cove Interlocking on the SS approach, and Tower A + the drawbridges on the NS approach. Not the mainlines (with exception of the Western Route from Somerville-N. Wilmington). By creating a second terminal district, and using both the surface terminals and the Link to their fullest, it completely lifts that limit and gives the system a 100-year capacity solution. Such that we can finally run U-bahn type frequencies in Boston.

Run-thrus are a nice-to-have, and gets overrated in the presentations because it's the easiest thing to visualize and find a U.S. example (SEPTA Center City) to orient people to. But only some compass-pointing mainline routes are really going to have tangible run-thru demand, and most branchlines won't. Frequencies really are the be-all/end-all, which is why it predicates the system's future on load-balancing the surface terminals and the underground terminals to the hilt.



NSRL is not a prerequisite for taking the Grand Junction off the RR network to convert to Urban Ring light rail or BRT. All you need for that are:

• A southside maintenance facility. One that can at least handle 100% of the coach needs, if there's better value in keeping locomotive heavy maint northside.
• Enough extra equipment so the two halves of the system don't have to keep trading equipment on a daily basis to stay in balance. Ditto for work equipment down south.
• Extra Downeaster trainsets and a small Amtrak crew quarters at Boston Engine Terminal, so every DE set doesn't have to get rotated south to Southampton Yard.
• Using that equipment parity to cut down on the number of north-south equipment swaps from 1-2 times per day on the GJ to 1-2 times per week via the Worcester-Ayer route. That way it's a more or less lateral trade on crew hours.
• Upgrades to the Pan Am Worcester Branch to Class 2 (40 MPH passenger) speed. Right now the deplorable track conditions keep it from 25 MPH tops to as little as 10 MPH in some really shitty spots, with a 5-hour round trip on the Worcester Line, the freight branch, and the Fitchburg Line. Need to be uniformly tolerable enough to slash that in half.

That's about it. A lot of eat-your-peas stuff they'll be needing sooner or later as the southside gets progressively more equipment-hungry and BET gets tapped out of space to balance both sides. But check off that bucket list and the GJ is there for the taking even if NSRL never gets built. Since that Indigo route on the GJ was dodgy to begin with because of the grade crossings; I'm skeptical Gov. Patrick's crayon drawing would've survived a deep traffic modeling analysis. That Worcester-NS commuter rail plan only existed because Orange and Red are horribly slow at rush, and some unidirectional peak-hour directs found some demand; the study found zero demand off-peak because Orange BBY-NS and Red SS-Kendall made equal-or-better time on transfers vs. the one-seat and off-peak demand was stiffest keeping to one terminal. Fix Orange and Red and the need for that one disappears.

About the only route that gets precluded here is a New York-Portland Amtrak once-a-day with a stop + reverse at North Station. Absolutely no one would consider that a must-have if weighing the utility of the Urban Ring. About 80% of the patronage would be using it as a regular old Inland NE Regional slot and a regular own Downeaster slot, with an overchurn at Boston. The only reason it's low-hanging fruit is because it can bootstrap on two independently well-patronized routes as a smoke-and-mirrors one-seat to pry a few weekenders out of NYC and business travelers out of Portland. It wouldn't be a viable proposal at all if it couldn't hide behind two pre-existing schedules and only cost pennies on the dollar to run as a unified train.

 

[tangent]

Re: North-South Rail Link

150 ft. below ground. That's going to be a constipated set of escalators given that the Blue level is pretty compact and there's little space for much in the way of a concourse. South Station and North Station have multiple levels with more spacious concourses that the NSRL stations can tap into. Central Station's going to have wretched pedestrian movement in addition to having fewer, shorter platforms traffic-clogging the tunnel. It's in the concept because it was in the previous concept, but I can't realistically see that surviving first cut.


Nothing new with the renders. That's pretty much exactly what they had before with the Dot Ave./Channel alignment, which was preferred over the Dewey Square alignment because it steered clear of the Federal Reserve building. Don't think those North Station platforms are drawn-to-scale, however; that surface map has them placed at Haymarket, not NS.

It is a bit of a cluster to see how it would work, but it would make for an appealing way to get directly to that area of town if it could be made to work. It definitely adds to the appeal of the proposal.

Maybe the harbor garage proposal could incorporate central station.

 

[Semass]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I know this is talked about often, but can anyone give the definitive list of second-order benefits? Things like freeing up the Grand Junction? I'm wondering if these are being studied also, or at least mentioned as aggregate benefits.

Ultimately, this establishes a second "subway" that will divert large numbers of passengers from the overwhelmed central subway Red, Orange, and Green Lines. If you reduce commuter-to-subway transfers, you free up a lot of capacity in the core.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Ultimately, this establishes a second "subway" that will divert large numbers of passengers from the overwhelmed central subway Red, Orange, and Green Lines. If you reduce commuter-to-subway transfers, you free up a lot of capacity in the core.

This. Similar to Red-Blue, this has a great benefit of removing a lot of downtown transfers by giving people one-seat or two-seat rides, where they previously had two- or three-seat rides.

 

[boston85]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Ultimately, this establishes a second "subway" that will divert large numbers of passengers from the overwhelmed central subway Red, Orange, and Green Lines. If you reduce commuter-to-subway transfers, you free up a lot of capacity in the core.

It also creates a more reliable commute home. My dad drives all the way into Sullivan because he got tired of having to leave his office in South Station 30+ minutes before his train departed north station to Woburn. Otherwise he would risk sitting at North Station for up to an hour for the next train because the red or orange was running slow or too packed to get on. By parking at Sullivan, he needs to sit in traffic a bit more, but the variance of times is greatly reduced and he can leave when he wants

If you could get to from downtown Boston to Woburn in around a half-hour with a good degree of reliability you take a lot of commuters off of 93. Even more if the frequency of trains could get low enough so commuters are not on a strict schedule leaving the office to make a train.

 

[Deetroyt]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Would you be able to board a train at "South Station Under" (for lack of a better name?) and then get off at the "North Station Under" platform and switch to a different train for free? In other words, if you got to the south station platform and boarded the first train that arrived, which was was newburyport, rode it to North station and then got off and boarded a train headed for Lowell, would you need to pay 2 separate tickets?

Or would it make more sense just to wait at South station until a Lowell destination train arrived, and not have to get off at North station?

 

[Lrfox]

Re: North-South Rail Link

It also creates a more reliable commute home. My dad drives all the way into Sullivan because he got tired of having to leave his office in South Station 30+ minutes before his train departed north station to Woburn. Otherwise he would risk sitting at North Station for up to an hour for the next train because the red or orange was running slow or too packed to get on. By parking at Sullivan, he needs to sit in traffic a bit more, but the variance of times is greatly reduced and he can leave when he wants

I gave up on doing Red/Orange or Green/Red transfers a while ago. I work near North Station and catch a train or bus from South Station on most days. I just walk. It's 20-25 minutes depending on your pace and there are no delays or service interruptions. The hassle of walking to the platform, waiting for a Green or Orange Line train to arrive, disembark at the transfer station, wait for then board a Red Line train, was tedious and often times took just as long as (if not longer than) walking. I understand there are reasons people may not be able to walk and reasons they may not want to (weather- but there is attire for every condition), but it's just not that bad of a walk. Unless it's a downpour, I typically enjoy it.

If I need the ultimate flexibility, I will drive to Quincy and take the Red Line, but that's a rare occurrence. Even rarer that I'd drive all the way in. Our system's far from perfect, I agree. But central Boston is so compact that your feet are your best friend. I certainly couldn't imagine abandoning the comfort of a commuter bus or commuter rail to sit in extra traffic and take the orange line every day simply because the transfer isn't reliable in town.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Would you be able to board a train at "South Station Under" (for lack of a better name?) and then get off at the "North Station Under" platform and switch to a different train for free? In other words, if you got to the south station platform and boarded the first train that arrived, which was was newburyport, rode it to North station and then got off and boarded a train headed for Lowell, would you need to pay 2 separate tickets?

Or would it make more sense just to wait at South station until a Lowell destination train arrived, and not have to get off at North station?

That's more of a policy issue than anything having to do with the physicality of the project. Theoretically the T could work out transfers however they wanted. Would be a lot simpler if they got the MBCR on Charlie.

 

[Jahvon09]

Re: North-South Rail Link

To see ANY of these things happen, I think that we stand a better chance of seeing Jesus first. They will more than likely go for the bus - quite possibly the Silverline service.

It is much easier to set up and there is very little construction, as opposed to digging another tunnel, which would bring back the headaches & snafus that was caused by the Big Dig.