Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

Re: North-South Rail Link

Done right, the underground platform-to-surface circulation from the North Sation Under and South Station Under could go a long way to moving people to/from the catchment of "Central Station" without the need of building Central.

If South Station Under is going to be that far North and that deep, its pedestrian access could include angled bores that take escalators to the Seaport and to someplace near Russia/Rowe's Wharf. While tough, such access nearly eliminates the need for Central Station . (here's hoping they've worked out the bugs in the sloped elevators used in NYC on the 7 extension)

Also based on how deep North Station Under is, there seems a similar opportunity to have its access points fan out towards the North End and Haymarket.



(I'd rather serve the Central Station need by building the Red-Blue @ MGH and giving the Sliver Line better ROW/Priority )
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Yeah I was thinking the same thing as you Arlington it just seems weird to build Central when the egress for the other stations could be just a block or two from the egress for Central.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

After looking at the rendering of this, I am a bit confused. Would N/S rail replace north and south station or be in addition to them? Why would this lead to increased frequencies compared to just shortening the turnaround time and expanding south station? Would the fairmount line be able to go through the tunnel even though the portal is at back back station?
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I go back-and-forth on the need for Central Station with some of the material I read. The N-S Rail Link with a Central Station provides a theoretical two-seat ride from anywhere on the T to anywhere on the CR and vice versa. That's huge. Without a connection to the Blue Line, this is no longer true.

The question is: if there is no Central Station and Blue Line connection, how can the Blue Line corridor still be well served? Ultimately it's about providing a two-seat ride from Blue Line stations to the most places.

Well, currently, there is a two-seat ride from the Blue Line, only effectively to the rest of East Boston, Revere, Downtown, Beacon Hill, as well as Winthrop and Chelsea (via crowded, key bus routes) and the Orange Line (Chinatown, Bay Village, Back Bay, South End, Fenway-ish, Roxbury, Mission Hill, JP, West/North End, Charlestown, Somerville-ish, Medford-ish, and Malden). Government Center reopening gives a two-seat ride to Green Line neighborhoods (Newton, Brookline, Brighton, Allston, Longwood, the rest of Fenway, a bit of Cambridge).

What important two-seat rides from the BL can be semi-easily solved:
  • South Station: Silver Line Gateway
  • Camberville's core (Kendall/Central/Harvard/Porter/Davis): Red-Blue Connector
  • Central Somerville and South Medford (Union, Gilman, Ball, Tufts, etc): GLX
  • Seaport/South Boston Waterfront: Silver Line Gateway
  • South Boston proper/Dorchester/Quincy/Braintree: Silver Line Gateway and/or Red-Blue Connector (albeit a little inconvenient, but still much-improved)
  • North Shore (Lynn, Swampscott, Salem, Beverly, Manchester-By-The-Sea, Gloucester, Rockport, Essex, Ipswich, Rowley, Newburyport, etc): Blue Line to Lynn

At that point, we are much of the way to ideal connectivity. The biggest missing two-seat rides to/from Blue Line Stations (excepting Airport Station) are longer-distance: Lowell, Worcester, Providence, NYC, etc.

tl;dr If Silver Line Gateway, Red-Blue Connector, GLX, and BLX to Lynn are all completed, the Central Station connection to Aquarium Station becomes less necessary.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Is the original MIS/DEIR with figures online anywhere? This archived version has the full text but the figures are missing.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

as opposed to digging another tunnel, which would bring back the headaches & snafus that was caused by the Big Dig.

Since this would primarily a tunnel boring project, then it wouldn't cause the kind of above ground disruption as the Big Dig.

It is a longshot because of the potential price tag and an unclear return on investment.

People can agree that it would be good to do, but I think it is simply hard (as in challenging) to add up the benefits and come up with numbers that demonstrate a good return on investment that is easy to talk about.

Between North Station and South Station is already well served by transit in terms of proximity to stations, so this project would be more about the network effects of making this connection.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

After looking at the rendering of this, I am a bit confused. Would N/S rail replace north and south station or be in addition to them? Why would this lead to increased frequencies compared to just shortening the turnaround time and expanding south station? Would the fairmount line be able to go through the tunnel even though the portal is at back back station?

They have to be in addition to the surface terminals which would likely also be expanded in the future even with the tunnel although it could be delayed much longer than it can be now without impacting service. Without the surface terminals the reduced headways and full benefits would not materialize.

As far as Fairmount it would have a separate portal which you can see as one of the lines representing the tunnel veers off to the south and would provide a portal for the Old Colony and Fairmount lines.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

If you go back through this thread a ways, there was a time when we discussed the likelihood of all lines being run-through as shown on the NSRL advocates site and many thought this was unnecessary. Old Colony lines would likely terminate at South Station and without electrification all the way to Woburn/Anderson, most Amtrak would end at SS as well. Some have noted that Needham would need to be converted to Orange as part of this. Fairmount, to live up to its potential, would need to have greater frequencies but the equipment needed for this short run is not the same as a long haul to the far north so this would also need to either terminate at SS or have some sort of short turn in Salem or other close-in location.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Expansion of the electric wire zone has to be a major element of this program if it is to serve the frequencies promised. At a minimum it would be Framingham, Woburn, and perhaps Salem to achieve clock facing frequencies inside 128.

We have talked a lot about short turn service on some of the busy lines and NSRL plus electrification can facilitate that service.
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

Done right, the underground platform-to-surface circulation from the North Sation Under and South Station Under could go a long way to moving people to/from the catchment of "Central Station" without the need of building Central.

Instead of building Central Station we should rename North and South Station Under to North-Central Station and South-Central Station.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

After looking at the rendering of this, I am a bit confused. Would N/S rail replace north and south station or be in addition to them? Why would this lead to increased frequencies compared to just shortening the turnaround time and expanding south station? Would the fairmount line be able to go through the tunnel even though the portal is at back back station?

The N/S rail link would add new platforms underneath the stations to increase capacity, and not all lines or trains would use the link. Part of the reason for this is that portals (entrances to the link) have to be built for several different lines. The Back Bay portal is top priority, as is the Fairmount IMO, but lines like Fitchburg and the Old Colony aren't needed right away and may take awhile to be implemented. As someone said earlier, the current limits to frequency are based on the amount of traffic going through the interlockings at North Station and South Station. No amount of added platforms will really address that IMO, and the link provides a way to completely eliminate said times. The other limiter to service increases is the lack of equipment storage at South Station, which can be mitigated by thru-routing most trains with more storage utilized at the ends of lines where land is cheaper and readily built upon. (At least compared to downtown Boston)
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

After looking at the rendering of this, I am a bit confused. Would N/S rail replace north and south station or be in addition to them? Why would this lead to increased frequencies compared to just shortening the turnaround time and expanding south station? Would the fairmount line be able to go through the tunnel even though the portal is at back back station?

It's in addition to. The great mash-up of all lines coming into South Station and the North Station drawbridges are the current limiters for frequencies on the system. For the most part, the commuter rail mainlines themselves have way way more capacity to give for packing trains closer. But they can't tap that capacity because all schedules are still predicated on Cove Interlocking at South Station and Tower 1 at North Station.


Take the NEC, for example. 4 tracks through SW Connecticut manage to carry all Amtrak traffic and dizzying rate of overlapping commuter rail schedules. You would think if we expanded it to 4 tracks here--as is eventually planned all points south of Forest Hills--that there'd be similar capacity to tap here. After all, the station spacing is far less dense than it is on Metro North given how much time the NEC spends in unpopulated wetlands between stops in MA. But then you look at the traffic modeling in the South Coast Rail FEIR and see just how crippled the frequencies are (I'd cite NEC FUTURE's TPH figures too, but their methodology is so faulty as to be useless). Why with comparable track capacity, far less operational complexity, and far less total demand can the New Haven Line absorb that kind of traffic while the Providence Line can't? Not even the 3-track pinch inbound of Forest Hills and Back Bay Station explain the extreme degree of difference in TPH capacity on the NEC in Massachusetts vs. the NEC on the New Haven Line. After all, the New Haven Line has to merge with the Harlem and Hudson Lines--near-equally extreme on service densities--on the approach to Grand Central.

It's all about the terminal district. The South Station approach is pinched by geography into a very tight mash-up of all lines in a half-mile span where trains are crisscrossing each other to get between mainline and platforms, while the load-bearing NEC/Worcester side has to crawl through one of the system's tightest curves to get there. Metro North has 5 miles of tangent track to sort itself after the last of its three mega-mainlines has merged in, and a much more spread-out set of lead tracks for fanning into the terminal. There's nothing Boston can do about its geography to correct this. The Channel and the Harbor are where they are, and the landfilled soil + all the other tunnels cut through the landfilled soil makes it impossible to realign everything in perfectly orderly fashion. South Station Expansion solves the shorter-term problem of constipated platform assignments imposing a cap more limited than Cove Interlocking's natural capacity...but fixing that glitch only addresses 20-year incremental growth before Cove itself is the immovable object. Reorganizing stuff by moving the Franklin Line permanently over to the Fairmount routing and trading Needham off to the Orange Line only serves to vacate slots that Amtrak's going to immediately gobble back up; it does nothing for increasing total frequencies. Building NSRL to replace the surface terminals, like SEPTA did with Center City, ends up a totally lateral move that just sends the same capacity cap underground; there's still a tight mash-up of lines at "Cove Under", still a very space-constrained fan-out into the platforms.



To some extent this problem has been lurking for over 115 years. When all of the mainlines into Boston were built, they each had their own independent terminals limited only by the capacity of the mainlines and the technology of the 19th century. Boston & Albany, Old Colony, New York & New England (Franklin/Fairmount), Boston & Providence (NEC), Fitchburg RR, Eastern RR, Boston & Maine, Boston & Lowell...they each had their own terminal stations spread across the CBD. And they each needed it, because prior to ~1890 there were no motor vehicles or electric streetcars or bicycles or any type of last-mile transport better than a horse on an unpaved, mud-packed city street. So the stop spacing and local passenger + freight frequencies they ran handled all the needs of the modes not yet invented. Basically...RR stations and freight houses packed as close together as express bus stops are today. By the time the two union stations were built the trolleys were out in force, the internal combustion engine was well into its R&D phase and a known-known upcoming game-changer once it got in wide circulation, and roads were starting to get paved with hard surfaces. The RR's were finally able to shed a lot of those hyper-local runs and overdense stop spacing that the streetcars were better-equipped and focus on the more profitable growth markets of suburban and regional service. Which made the concept of catch-all union stations extremely attractive. But the tradeoff for the convenience of consolidating terminals was accepting that Cove and Tower 1 were going to impose a capacity cap.

The post-industrial collapse of the Eastern CBD's, and cars displacing the RR's deferred that capacity cap from becoming a problem for a full century. But now that Boston is bigger than ever and the East Coast megalopolis more saturated than ever we're starting to stare down some real service limits that are going to scrape up against that terminal district capacity cap in the next 25 years. Europe and SE Asia provide the model of 21st century hyper-dense service that the East Coast megalopolis is going to have to implement on wider scale to be able to self-sustain, but we can't do that in Boston because of the capacity trade-off made when the union stations were first built (and then, regrettably, cut in half in the late- 20th century with no means of getting 100% of the way back). It's eventually going to place limits on our region's economic sustainability if we don't plan for a solution to that cap.



So the only solution that restores the true mainline capacity that we'll finally need to tap after 115 years is to create a second set of terminal district(s) completely separate from the first set that divides up the load before train slots get constrained by the great mash-up. Hence, continuing to use the surface South Station and surface Cove Interlocking to their fullest extent, while shadowing it underground with SS "Under" and Cove "Under". And being able to seamlessly divide traffic between the two by sticking portals a *hair* before the NEC and Worcester Line merge, and a *hair* before the Old Colony and Fairmount merge. By sidestepping the capacity cap of the surface terminal district, headways can now fill out to the tippy-top of the mainline's capacity. And that ends up such an exponential capacity increase that it'll take us 100 years to invent the demand that fills it all up.


The ability to do run-thru service is a nice side benefit (one that gets overrated to the point of confusing the issues). But it's not the reason for doing it. And if retiring the surface terminals (i.e. what SEPTA did) were a goal...run-thru wouldn't be anywhere close to big enough benefit to justify the cost, because it's just trading one capacity cap for a different (and possibly worse) one. NSRL is about a 100-year solve for the RR network's capacity cap, such that New England can exponentially increase its service frequencies across-the-board through the Boston hub. Including at the firing-on-all-cylinders surface terminals.

How they choose to take advantage of those available frequencies is anybody's guess. It's such a massive gain it'll no doubt take a long time to even sketch out that canvas. It's that total a reboot. But if you want that 100-year canvas at all...you build NSRL, you keep expanded South Station, you keep and eventually expand (with reinstated Drawbridge #3 and more platforms on the ex-Spaulding side of the property) North Station. And then you dream up the system that uses that capacity to the hilt, and sustains the region's economic prowess.



That's the great big promise here. No one expects the full benefits to be realized on Day 1 of the ribbon-cutting, as there is a SHITLOAD of follow-on things to build and investments in service the state and feds have to execute on to make to make the Link pull its weight (and yes, that also means an exponential shitload of rapid transit expansion because the CBD just isn't equipped to distribute several million more annual transit riders pouring into a transfer singularity at NS + SS). But it's the key piece of infrastructure enabling the century-level solve for the capacity cap and the century-level solve for regional sustainability. This is the backbone of your great-grandchildren's mobility, and their economic opportunities in this region. We need to get the ball rolling on it soon, because the effects of the capacity cap are going to be felt in *our* lifetimes, and quite likely while we're still in the workforce.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

In 100-150 years (or whenever) North Station's stadium just needs to be rebuilt it seems all around North Station is going to be occupied or towers so they wont be able to build a new stadium next to the existing building as they did in the 1980-1990s. Perhaps at that point it would make sense to transition from that North Station to the new "central" station. If there's still a United States then.

I go back-and-forth on the need for Central Station with some of the material I read. The N-S Rail Link with a Central Station provides a theoretical two-seat ride from anywhere on the T to anywhere on the CR and vice versa. That's huge. Without a connection to the Blue Line, this is no longer true.

The question is: if there is no Central Station and Blue Line connection, how can the Blue Line corridor still be well served? Ultimately it's about providing a two-seat ride from Blue Line stations to the most places.

Well, currently, there is a two-seat ride from the Blue Line, only effectively to the rest of East Boston, Revere, Downtown, Beacon Hill, as well as Winthrop and Chelsea (via crowded, key bus routes) and the Orange Line (Chinatown, Bay Village, Back Bay, South End, Fenway-ish, Roxbury, Mission Hill, JP, West/North End, Charlestown, Somerville-ish, Medford-ish, and Malden). Government Center reopening gives a two-seat ride to Green Line neighborhoods (Newton, Brookline, Brighton, Allston, Longwood, the rest of Fenway, a bit of Cambridge).

What important two-seat rides from the BL can be semi-easily solved:
  • South Station: Silver Line Gateway
  • Camberville's core (Kendall/Central/Harvard/Porter/Davis): Red-Blue Connector
  • Central Somerville and South Medford (Union, Gilman, Ball, Tufts, etc): GLX
  • Seaport/South Boston Waterfront: Silver Line Gateway
  • South Boston proper/Dorchester/Quincy/Braintree: Silver Line Gateway and/or Red-Blue Connector (albeit a little inconvenient, but still much-improved)
  • North Shore (Lynn, Swampscott, Salem, Beverly, Manchester-By-The-Sea, Gloucester, Rockport, Essex, Ipswich, Rowley, Newburyport, etc): Blue Line to Lynn

At that point, we are much of the way to ideal connectivity. The biggest missing two-seat rides to/from Blue Line Stations (excepting Airport Station) are longer-distance: Lowell, Worcester, Providence, NYC, etc.

tl;dr If Silver Line Gateway, Red-Blue Connector, GLX, and BLX to Lynn are all completed, the Central Station connection to Aquarium Station becomes less necessary.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Another tunnel under Boston doesn’t sound crazy to Seth Moulton

Seth Moulton, who has been part of Dukakis’s rail study group, is breathing new life into the effort and rallying the Massachusetts congressional delegation to get behind it. "He plans to send a letter — signed by nearly the entire Massachusetts delegation, including US Senator Elizabeth Warren and US representatives Mike Capuano, Stephen Lynch, and Richard Neal — urging Baker to take the study seriously."
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Since this would primarily a tunnel boring project, then it wouldn't cause the kind of above ground disruption as the Big Dig.

It is a longshot because of the potential price tag and an unclear return on investment.

People can agree that it would be good to do, but I think it is simply hard (as in challenging) to add up the benefits and come up with numbers that demonstrate a good return on investment that is easy to talk about.

Between North Station and South Station is already well served by transit in terms of proximity to stations, so this project would be more about the network effects of making this connection.


Then they should look into building a simple monorail system, instead of putting it in the ground. It would be easier to build with far less headaches.

Let it run between North Station & South Station, with no stops in between, to save on travel time. Much like the tram system the operates & runs around Chicago's O'Hare Airport. :cool:
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Then they should look into building a simple monorail system, instead of putting it in the ground. It would be easier to build with far less headaches.

Let it run between North Station & South Station, with no stops in between, to save on travel time. Much like the tram system the operates & runs around Chicago's O'Hare Airport. :cool:

A monorail or any other rapid transit between North and South station will not provide nearly the same benefits of the NSRL. The NSRL allows trains to run straight through which offers more single or no transfer destinations for commuters, but more importantly, the NSRL eliminates the train congesting at the platforms and switches approaching north station and south station. That is the game changer.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Then they should look into building a simple monorail system, instead of putting it in the ground. It would be easier to build with far less headaches.

Let it run between North Station & South Station, with no stops in between, to save on travel time. Much like the tram system the operates & runs around Chicago's O'Hare Airport. :cool:

sure
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

A monorail or any other rapid transit between North and South station will not provide nearly the same benefits of the NSRL. The NSRL allows trains to run straight through which offers more single or no transfer destinations for commuters, but more importantly, the NSRL eliminates the train congesting at the platforms and switches approaching north station and south station. That is the game changer.

Also, the N-S Link allows for north side / south side connectivity for deadhead and repair movements; taking that burden off of the Grand Junction link.

This opens up Grand Junction for potential Urban Ring use.

Also thru running some commuter trains takes burden off of the central subway transfer stations (about to meet max capacity!). South and West side commuters can connect directly to Orange and Green at North Station on thru running trains (not just those on the NEC and Worcester trains). North side commuters can connect directly to Red on thru running trains (not just those on the Fitchburg line).

The network effects of N-S Link are absolutely huge.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Another tunnel under Boston doesn’t sound crazy to Seth Moulton

Seth Moulton, who has been part of Dukakis’s rail study group, is breathing new life into the effort and rallying the Massachusetts congressional delegation to get behind it. "He plans to send a letter — signed by nearly the entire Massachusetts delegation, including US Senator Elizabeth Warren and US representatives Mike Capuano, Stephen Lynch, and Richard Neal — urging Baker to take the study seriously."

Key word is Dukakis -- everything after that is redundant or superfluous

Despite having a Republican Governor in Charlie Baker, there is 0 support in a Republican House and Republican Senate for pouring more $ into another Massachusetts hole in the ground
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Key word is Dukakis -- everything after that is redundant or superfluous

Despite having a Republican Governor in Charlie Baker, there is 0 support in a Republican House and Republican Senate for pouring more $ into another Massachusetts hole in the ground


The issues are more Baker's support, whether GLX is completed (because that is blocking other projects) and getting to a more concrete estimate of the price tag that keeps it under something like $3 Billion or some number that can be justified.
 

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