Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

Re: North-South Rail Link

Most of the "crazy transit pitches" I've seen on this website over the years are not all that crazy. Most are do-able with enough $$$$. It's really only fiscal constraint and prioritization of need that make most of them "crazy".

With deep tunnel boring technology advancing the way it is, routes which were considered infeasible because of cut-and-cover could become feasible with deep bore. I'm thinking especially of a tunnel connecting the Green Line at Boylston with the Silver Line tunnel at South Station, and also a deep bore tunnel to extend the abandoned Tremont tunnel to the Pru and the E Line.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

^ and the kicker is that you could dig both of those with the same machine in a single continuous bore, and then turn left and keep digging to create the NSRL.

My understanding of the economics is that there is a very high base cost to get a TBM in and out of the ground, and the name of the game is to amortize that over distance.

I think that - given the specific current circumstances in Boston (specifically the several stub-ends of trolley, bus, and rail tunnels/lines that were either amputated 50 years ago or never-finished 20 years ago) - there's might be a lot of potential in linking together different lines / modes in a one continuous tunnel bore. I know the diameter requirements are different for each mode, but i also expect that its not a deal-killer to have some extra space here and there.

[/bongrip]
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Actually the base cost for a TBM insertion and extraction is so high, they are often not extracted. They are just left in place at the end of the bore. (They tend to have limited service life anyway; it is rough mechanical work.)
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Actually the base cost for a TBM insertion and extraction is so high, they are often not extracted. They are just left in place at the end of the bore. (They tend to have limited service life anyway; it is rough mechanical work.)

They'd get their money's worth here, though, because of those 1-mile long lead tunnels from Southampton Yard and the NEC @ approx. the Washington St. overpass. All soft fill and more than half of it just post- CA/T clean backfill. Nothing like that endless "Big Bertha" TBM comedy of errors in Seattle bedrock for their Big Dig'ging of the Alaskan Way Viaduct. But it's gonna pull out enough dirt to landfill another Harbor Island or re-top a mountain out in the 'burbs, so having it churning outta sight will be worth its weight in gold for all the dumptrucks that DON'T have to be roaming the streets of the CBD for a whole 10 years transporting crap in and out of a big hole. Hell, the northside portals being bang-bang 10 paces from Boston Sand & Gravel's freight siding pretty much means the daily Pan Am "DOBO" freight can just have its frequencies doubled: haul twice the inbound sand from Ossippee Pit so BS&G can churn out a nonstop conveyor belt of tunnel lining, haul the excavated dirt out on the empties. Probably with Track 61 being used to load up a conga line of dirt hoppers pulled out of the south portals for CSX to switch out to Readville or shunt over to Marine Terminal to load onto barges.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

guy on City Data writes.....

OyCrumbler said:
Right, I've gone through that thread. I'm on the side of:

- Try to build this out now rather than the South Station expansion because the South Station expansion is basically made obsolete by this

- Build the link out at its minimum with future provisions--not the whole hog immediately because that is far too expensive. You probably know the details, but for those who don't, the Big Dig project basically already cleared the majority of the link for this thing so the massive costs of utility relocations, archeological surprises, etc. are basically eliminated. It's clean, pristine dirt that was put in as filler that needs to be moved.

- The other costs of portals for the many lines converging on either station, electrification of lines, and the Central Station do not need to be all built in its entirety at once. The plan should be tiered priorities for what is minimally needed and what should be prioritized, but built in such a way that future expansion (access for more portals from either station to the tunnel, electrification of additional lines rather than just some of the most popular for now, and how elaborate or whether or not a Central Station should even initially be built should expand in scope depending on what funding is actually available). It does not need to be the whole hog and the whole price tag immediately to be effective.

- The benefits of the rail link are commonly misunderstood by both detractors and supporters. On the supporters side, the idea that this allows the Northeastern corridor trains have a direct line up to points north of Boston, while nice, is almost wholly besides the point because it simply isn't that important because there isn't currently particularly large cities north of Boston. The Amtrak component is mostly important simply because it already provides a system / standard towards electrification with electrical substations and other infrastructure already present on the MBTA Providence/Stoughton Line and that the fact that this modest improvement for Amtrak to run its services also means a better shot at federal funding to piggyback on federal transit initiatives. On the detractors side, the point is missing that this will be an improvement for other T commuters because those who currently disembark at one of the terminus stations, but are transferring for the T just to get to work near the other station will no longer crowd in with you during peak hours.

Less overcrowding on those lines means better and more timely service on the T. Detractors also have the same issue with identifying the Amtrak Northeast Corridor connection as the primary reason for why this should be built--it's nice, but for the reasons already written previously. Riders living off of some stations that currently go to North Station now have one seat access to the major job centers at South Station and points further south which means much more people getting out of their cars and taking transit in.

For the initial lines that are electrified and routed through the link, you're basically getting a BART like service that for interlined portions are near rapid transit type service. It'll be a bit more limited at first, but as more lines are electrified and passed through the tunnels, more rapid transit service patterns will exist using these existing rail lines.

Another aspect is that it gives both Amtrak and MBTA operational flexibility in moving traincars (for non-revenue service to move around equipment) outside of using the Grand Junction rail though this a minor point. Finally, the most important thing is how this project gives a lot more flexibility to meet demand in the future as it wards against having to go through further North or South Station expansion in the future while also allowing future rapid transit like service throughout the region.

So here's what I think a minimal buildout should look like:

- The link itself

- Electric traincars running on the Providence / Stoughton Line (easy choice because Northeast Corridor means it's already got most of the infrastructure for it)

- Electrification of the Lowell line first and through-running of Providence / Stoughton Line trains to there as a single line, possibly electrification of another line currently going to North Station (one of those lines because prioritization should be given to giving North Station bound trains access to South Station where far more jobs are located and for load balancing given how popular the Providence / Stoughton Line is--South Station Access should probably be a good alternate name for this thing) if there is funding for it

- Trying to get New Hampshire and Maine DOTs to help fund Newburyport / Rockport electrification because that's in their interest for future electric traincar service to go up there including Northeast Corridor Amtrak lines

- A simple middle station between North and South Station such as Aquarium Street with a transfer to the Blue Line, though calling it Central Station is probably a bit much because it might compel a need to make it more extravagant than it really needs to be
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Odurandia -- I know that you didn't write this but it is hardly persuasive

On the detractors side, the point is missing that this will be an improvement for other T commuters because those who currently disembark at one of the terminus stations, but are transferring for the T just to get to work near the other station will no longer crowd in with you during peak hours.

Less overcrowding on those lines means better and more timely service on the T. Detractors also have the same issue with identifying the Amtrak Northeast Corridor connection as the primary reason for why this should be built--it's nice, but for the reasons already written previously. Riders living off of some stations that currently go to North Station now have one seat access to the major job centers at South Station and points further south which means much more people getting out of their cars and taking transit in.

For the initial lines that are electrified and routed through the link, you're basically getting a BART like service that for interlined portions are near rapid transit type service. It'll be a bit more limited at first, but as more lines are electrified and passed through the tunnels, more rapid transit service patterns will exist using these existing rail lines.

As F-Line has pointed out numerous times -- the sum total of all of the Commuter Rail passengers is comparable to the number of passengers taking the Blue Line

So the argument that you are going to achieve Rapid Transit frequencies on the connection between SS and NS is specious -- at least for quite a while until all of the service is electric and there are many EMU's shuttling around -- there wont be many trains to use to further your journey.

For example if you arrive at South Station Over on the Plymouth Train or one of the other non-electrified CR lines, you are on an average much better off doing whatever you would do now. Unless your timing is perfect, descending to South Station Under and waiting for The Providence to Lowell train will be an exercise in frustration.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

^^^At the risk of sounding stupid...^^^

Is it possible to run an electric train(s) back and forth when no mainline trains are transiting making sure it is ahead/behind those trains when they do come with a means for CR trains to pass (a switch to N/S track as needed).
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

^^^At the risk of sounding stupid...^^^

Is it possible to run an electric train(s) back and forth when no mainline trains are transiting making sure it is ahead/behind those trains when they do come with a means for CR trains to pass (a switch to N/S track as needed).

You most certainly could run a dingy back and forth if needed in the short term (especially with the 4 track alignment), among other mitigation. It all really is a weak and pointless argument though, as this only matters in the immediate short term while other lines electrify and convert to EMU service. Its like - we shouldn't build this thing that will help generations to come because for the first year or two its not going to super/fully useful right now.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

If "what makes it work" is transferring to Dinky between NS and SS, we're *way* better off creating an HOV lane either the Surface Artery or Congress St or BOTH.

A surface bus that ran on Congress:
NS
Haymarket
State
POSq
SS (Summer)
BCEC
Silver Line Way

would be a bit clunky on the CR stations end, but would do a far superior job on the "last 1000 feet" end of the trip by meeting demand basically at its doorstep--something a tunnel can't do.

I'm totally in favor for NSRL as a 2-track "second bore of the Red Line" and a 2-track EMU system serving inside 128 spokes Salem, Woburn, Brandeis, Newton, Dedham, [TBD Old Colony]
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

If "what makes it work" is transferring to Dinky between NS and SS, we're *way* better off creating an HOV lane either the Surface Artery or Congress St or BOTH.

A surface bus that ran on Congress:
NS
Haymarket
State
POSq
SS (Summer)
BCEC
Silver Line Way

would be a bit clunky on the CR stations end, but would do a far superior job on the "last 1000 feet" end of the trip by meeting demand basically at its doorstep--something a tunnel can't do.

I'm totally in favor for NSRL as a 2-track "second bore of the Red Line" and a 2-track EMU system serving inside 128 spokes Salem, Woburn, Brandeis, Newton, Dedham, [TBD Old Colony]

Take your surface bus one step further to the north and connect to Kendall as well!
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

guy on City Data writes.....

I'll go point-by-point.

1. This is a prime example of how formal advocacy for the NSRL is failing...badly...at explaining to interested citizens what this thing attempts to accomplish. It's not about replacing the terminal or run-thru, it's the fact that the mash-up of all lines onto the terminal lead tracks imposes an immovable headway limiter on the whole system. Until the messaging becomes simple enough for this to grasp, you're going to have folks like this utterly lost from the get-go. The advocacy never hits critical mass if it can't be bottom-lined what the hell the thing does.


2 & 3. This is true...but the poster loses the plot by not being able to name what those details are. And that's a red-flag for the confusion in #1 that he/she has no idea what this thing is supposed to do. Too few people claiming to be gung-ho for it know what it's supposed to do, and that's the messaging's fault. It's one thing to be able to look at the parts and determine "OK, Central Station really isn't adding much useful on top for its expense; lets cut that." It's another thing to have such blinders about what kinds of frequencies we hope to run through it and conclude "Let's just do 2 tracks." Yeah...according to the official study 2 instead of 4 tracks in a downsizing option. But the consequences are a lot bigger for making that cut instead of Central Station...so have some idea of what the mission statement (system frequencies) is before assuming all cuts are equal. Some parts are a hell of a lot more important than others. The messaging to-date hasn't armed the public with any means of ranking what features and/or frills matter the most. How are we going to agree upon what kind of build to fund if we can't rank those parts?


4. Lots of confusion here too. Poster correctly pegs the Amtrak demand drop-off; New Hampshire and Maine are mostly a Virginia Northeast Regionals-type audience for a very modest subset of run-thru service. But this stuff about Amtrak system standardization (e.g. electrification)? Irrelevant; it's abstract conceptual perfectionism that won't sway any federal dollars. Amtrak has no qualms with doing an engine switch to diesel in New Haven or Washington; the Springfield Line and Virginia lines don't need electrifying until ConnDOT or Virginia Railway Express commuter rail density compels it. Same thing here. They'll engine-switch the Regionals at Anderson RTC (where they'll presumably have a maint facility) for continuing to Concord or Portland those few times of day demand compels it.

And this whole thing that it's all about commuter station crowding misses the whole point about frequencies. The subway is choking to death on congestion because downtown growth is outstripping the Red Line's ability to run its peak frequencies. That's the Seaport doomsday clock ticking on economic growth cap of the CBD if we don't build some subway relievers. But you can't de-clog Red by building NSRL; commuter rail's mode share is simply too tiny. That's a distraction from the real issue...sort of like all these desperation ploys for a Track 61 dinky are a distraction from the real issue of never having completed Silver Line Phase III. You're not removing load faster than you're adding it by shuffling the project deck. Look at the Blue Book boardings by mode; the threat is all top-down from Red to Green/Orange. You don't address a top-down problem with potentially serious economic consequences by throwing bottom-up solutions at the board in desperation. The scale is inverted to where relief is needed.

Finally, if the poster understood that NSRL was about adding frequencies he/she would see the folly in a build that DOUBLED-or-more Purple Line frequencies into each terminal somehow being able to take riders off the choked downtown subways. How, exactly? Is Central Station on the system's lightest-ridership subway (Blue) supposed to offset that North Station Orange + Green, SS Red + Silver, and BBY-Orange are going to be seeing 2-3x as frequent CR trains upstairs & downstairs? Again...frequencies top-down vs. bottom-up. If we intend to run real RER frequencies through here, the loads downtown are going to keep spiraling up, up, up because of NSRL's real endgame of increasing Purple frequencies. You will have to build the whole kitchen sink of Red-Blue + Silver Line Phase III as prerequisites to be able to distribute those loads, will have to build the linear rapid transit extensions to big bus terminals like Lynn and Roslindale/West Roxbury to get the Yellow Line pitching in at effectively distributing those loads. It'll amp up the pressure on building the Urban Ring since NSRL hitting the CBD harder with Purple transferees puts more emphasis on being able to load-spread Yellow-centric subway transferees further away from the CBD. NSRL increases the rider supply. Congestion management where there already is an oversupply/overdemand is always, always going to be a top-down priority with Red + Green + Orange in the CBD leading all other modes by the nose. That's the forever pecking order. If NSRL's function is so poorly-understood that we can't understand how it fits in the pecking order...then we better clear up that confusion before selling the public on the job.


5 (re: build sequence). Ass-backwards. No...the Link will be completely useless if you don't pre-prep the biggest ridership line pairs first. Because it's all about frequencies, and a tunnel that's just sitting there being fed by mainlines not up-to-snuff for the change in frequencies isn't going to do much good. It'll barely be a change from current commuter rail frequencies to have a Day 1 with push-pull consists pulled by morbidly obese dual-mode locomotives covering the Providence-north and Worcester-north top pairings. Half-ass the frequencies for Day 1 because of an over-focus on steel-and-concrete being 'the' build, and there's little motivation to dig out of that hole and finish tightening the bolts systemwide because half-assed becomes the schedule baseline that sets all expectations.

You have to have your electrification pre-prep far enough along to run some Riverside-Salem Indigo trains and Providence-Lowell thru pairings on nimble EMU's. And you have to have eaten your peas for a couple decades decrapifying the mainlines of any SGR deficits that impose unnatural frequency limiters...stuff like top-shape signal systems, killing speed restrictions over bridges and grade crossing clusters, modernizing stations for optimal dwell times. Transit's never an "if you build it, they will come" calculation. Transit's an "if you run it, they will come." How many times do we have to get punked by throwing a lot of money at shiny stuff only to have the powers that be backpedal away from running the originally intended frequencies? Guess what...you can proportionately make NSRL just like another Fairmount Line by building the shiny stuff then throwing the service plan in the trash when it comes to actually running frequencies that matter a damn through the shiny stuff. In fact...we should expect this as the DEFAULT temptation for state officials given how many transit projects have seen inevitable attrition between study and grand opening on frequencies. NSRL advocacy must pitch it as more a frequency megaproject than a physical-construction megaproject to make sure that whittling-down effect doesn't systematically stifle all momentum for enacting the service plan.

The fact that this poster is assuming a general status quo on how these things go--emphasize the monument before the usefulness--is all the red flags you need to show that things have to change with how we perceive service-oriented civil engineering projects in this state. "Build it first, details later" doesn't fly. If that's how the sales pitch is being processed...then the sales pitch has to be a lot different.





I'd like to say I'm more optimistic, but this poster's response betrays the exact warning signs that tell us that the NSRL advocacy isn't clear enough, isn't emphasizing the right service-oriented things, and in general is lacking any sort of consensus on what this thing's upside is. If frequencies keep getting de-emphasized and set aside in a discussion of the project's basic parts and basic upside...then we don't get it. Clean up the murk and weasel-words in the public talking points. The advocacy has to ding the right part of the public's brain. It 'clicks' when, after outlining the key points, the public starts brainstorming--wholly on their own devices--about what their travel options would be on RER-style frequent train service. You'll know it's working because they'll pretty much give back a dictionary definition of RER-level service without ever being told beforehand what "RER-level service" is. The frequency argument just leads one's brain right to that service paradigm as the natural order of things. If the selling points for NSRL can't lead people to that natural-order conclusion, it's botching the messaging. Faulty conclusions about replacements for other unbuilt subways, surface vs. tunnel warfare, ignoring whether the CR network even has the SGR to be ready for it, inversions of the mode-by-mode demand profile (i.e. top-down vs. bottom-up), overemphasis on the tunnel structure itself to exclusion of how it's used, or eight-dimensional political chess: ALL...OF...THESE are dead ends, not starting points for an advocacy. If the messaging leads to mass confusion or dumping people into those dead ends rather than letting service levels set the agenda and shape the momentum...that means the advocates need to sharpen their game and try again.


This whole post is basically a road map for every dead-end conclusion the advocates need to address as they sharpen their game and try again. It won't work if that poster is the proverbial control sample for how these talking points lead people's conclusions astray. The project has no chance if a relatively educated person like this can't be set straight bullet by bullet with service-first project emphasis.
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

If "what makes it work" is transferring to Dinky between NS and SS, we're *way* better off creating an HOV lane either the Surface Artery or Congress St or BOTH.

A surface bus that ran on Congress:
NS
Haymarket
State
POSq
SS (Summer)
BCEC
Silver Line Way

would be a bit clunky on the CR stations end, but would do a far superior job on the "last 1000 feet" end of the trip by meeting demand basically at its doorstep--something a tunnel can't do.

I'm totally in favor for NSRL as a 2-track "second bore of the Red Line" and a 2-track EMU system serving inside 128 spokes Salem, Woburn, Brandeis, Newton, Dedham, [TBD Old Colony]

Not sure if in reply to me - but I was more pointing out that the dingy back and forth thing is pretty silly. The entire point of NSRL is for easier operations and to be able to convert the inside 128 CR into a S-Bahn like system. I think all for tracks should be CR - I don't see what a second bore of the redline would get us. Would it just be a stub route to North Station? I would think that would wreak havoc on the already crappy red line headways...

The dingy thing was pointing out the ridiculousness of not building NSRL because at first it might not have great frequency and be "an exercise in frustration." which I think totally misses the point of the NSRL.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Not sure if in reply to me - but I was more pointing out that the dingy back and forth thing is pretty silly. The entire point of NSRL is for easier operations and to be able to convert the inside 128 CR into a S-Bahn like system. I think all for tracks should be CR - I don't see what a second bore of the redline would get us. Would it just be a stub route to North Station? I would think that would wreak havoc on the already crappy red line headways...

The dingy thing was pointing out the ridiculousness of not building NSRL because at first it might not have great frequency and be "an exercise in frustration." which I think totally misses the point of the NSRL.
Bakgwallo -- If you want to pilot a TBM around -- don't waste it on the NSRL which unless and until substantial electrification is completed on the CR lines, would just really serve Amtrak and also get you from Providence to North Station in one seat.

Instead turn you TBM machine into a subway tunneling project akin to London's Circle Line

A relatively short looping deep bore line that links:
  • Logan @ Central Parking [Silver Line]
  • South Boston Seaport @ Cruiseport Boston
  • South Boston Seaport @ BCEC
  • South Station [Red Line & Silver Line & Amtrak & Southside CR]
  • Former Flower Exchange
  • Longwood / Brigham Circle [Green Line E]
  • NB Sports City [Worcester CR]
  • Harvard Alston
  • Mem Dr.
  • Harvard Square [Red Line]
  • Kendall near Hampshire
  • Kendall near 3rd & Bent
  • Lechmere [Green Line]
  • North Station [Green & Orange Line & North Side CR]
  • Charlestown Navy Yard
  • Chelsea [Silver Line]
  • [back to Logan]
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

The developing narrative seems to be:
1) Show busy high-frequency, electrified, EMU CR lines *first* (F-Line, in a nutshell)
2) Show busy high-frequency transit use between North and South station on the surface (my point about a Congress St HOV/BRT)

These two answer the biggest questions:
1) Where will vehicle frequency come from? (EMUs, SSX, NSX)
2) Show passenger demand for "far side of core" O&D commutes (Southsiders working at Haymarket/FiDi North, Northsiders working at Seaport, Leather Distric)

========

Second bore of the Red would tap in near JFK/UMass and therefore allow both Ashmont & Braintree to double their trains per hour by each sending one train into the new bore for every train they currently send to Alewife.

It is an extremely easy way to pump a whole lot of electric branch lines at high frequency to the core. Want 3-minute headways in the NSRL? Think Red Line.

Even if the second Red bore only had stops at NS & SS

It would
- Double Red throughput at South Station (both connecting and O&D)
- Offer huge offloading of connections from DTX and Park (to NS)
- Deliver southsiders to offices in Haymarket/State area
- Deliver northsiders to Leather District / FiDi

Then even without a full northern branch you've got a lot of good options for a Northern Surface Terminus
- Sullivan @ OL
- WashingtonSt @ GLX to Tufts
- UnionSq @ GLX
- Inner Belt @ Urban Ring

And two good intermediate stop options
- Aquarium
- Widett Cir

If you need a northern leg of the Red to feel balanced, you've got lots of choices of where to go from NS:
- Follow under/beside/instead GLX Fitchburg CR to Union & Porter & Alewife (the Red X concept, generally)
- Follow under/beside/instead GLX/Lowell Line to Rt 16
- Replace Orange Line to Oak Grove (send Orange out a GLX)

If we have to choose between a 4 track NSRL (and no station at Aquarium) and a 3-or-less track (to make room for an Aquarium station) I'd much rather do the 4 track and run it as 2-track NEC/CR and a 2-Track Red Line.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...jounce-more/AgnXawa5QiDrHqcrmenxCJ/story.html

Connecting North and South stations,
By George Brennan Globe correspondent January 27, 2017

Track meet: The moment of truth is coming for the North South Rail Link.

The project has become a bit of a legend around Boston, ever since it was first scrapped in the 1980s during planning for the Big Dig. Connecting North and South stations, a little more than a mile apart, sounds sensible on its face. But these kinds of projects are often more complex than they seem — and usually more expensive.

The Baker administration is embarking on a study, one that will cost up to $2 million, to evaluate the benefits and costs. Stephanie Pollack, Charlie Baker’s transportation secretary, huddled with Rail Link supporters last week to discuss parameters before the study goes out to bid in the coming weeks.

Baker would prefer to focus on a competing project, the South Station expansion, and on badly needed upgrades to existing infrastructure. But Pollack and her team seem to be giving this analysis a good faith effort.
Representative Seth Moulton has emerged as an important voice of support, and former Governor Mike Dukakis remains a driving force. Nearly all of Boston’s city councilors endorse the project now, proponents say, as do a number of mayors.

But the Rail Link remains a long shot until the power brokers on Beacon Hill and Moulton’s colleagues in Congress climb on board. That’s why this report is important to the project’s future, and why supporters know they’ve got to get it right.
 
Government Crossing or Downtown Center station

I've been wondering whether building a single deep bore station with the north end of the platform(s) under the Tremont St / Court St intersection (for access to the Green and Blue Lines at Government Center), and the south end of the platform(s) under the Summer St / Arch St / Chauncy St intersection for access to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing (hopefully near the end of the Red Line platform away from the Orange Line transfer congestion) would be a viable option. (For Orange Line access, connections to the north end of the northbound Downtown Crossing platform and the south end of the southbound State St platform would presumably be desireable).

This would involve having a tunnel deep enough that from the Summer St / Arch St / Chauncy St intersection to the Kingston St / Essex St intersection, the tunnel would largely go under buildings instead of following the street grid, and then the tunnel might continue under Kingston St, I-93 southbound, and the South Bay Interchange.

To the north of Government Center station, I get the impression that the first few buildings this would involve tunneling under are probably buildings that are well post WWII, and the tunnel could probably be fairly deep through this area since it wouldn't need to come to the surface until after crossing the Charles River.
 
Re: Government Crossing or Downtown Center station

I've been wondering whether building a single deep bore station with the north end of the platform(s) under the Tremont St / Court St intersection (for access to the Green and Blue Lines at Government Center), and the south end of the platform(s) under the Summer St / Arch St / Chauncy St intersection for access to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing (hopefully near the end of the Red Line platform away from the Orange Line transfer congestion) would be a viable option. (For Orange Line access, connections to the north end of the northbound Downtown Crossing platform and the south end of the southbound State St platform would presumably be desireable).

This would involve having a tunnel deep enough that from the Summer St / Arch St / Chauncy St intersection to the Kingston St / Essex St intersection, the tunnel would largely go under buildings instead of following the street grid, and then the tunnel might continue under Kingston St, I-93 southbound, and the South Bay Interchange.

To the north of Government Center station, I get the impression that the first few buildings this would involve tunneling under are probably buildings that are well post WWII, and the tunnel could probably be fairly deep through this area since it wouldn't need to come to the surface until after crossing the Charles River.

I think that might be more in line with crazy transit pitches - there is already a clean filled tunnel ready to go under the big dig that was future proofing for the NSRL. Given the question mark of financial feasibility already even with this, I don't think brand new deep bore tunnels would be in the cards for it.
 
Re: Government Crossing or Downtown Center station

I think that might be more in line with crazy transit pitches - there is already a clean filled tunnel ready to go under the big dig that was future proofing for the NSRL. Given the question mark of financial feasibility already even with this, I don't think brand new deep bore tunnels would be in the cards for it.

Exactly, and a big part of the future proofing was making sure the portal alignments to access the tunnel were protected. Move the tunnel, and you screw up the provisions for the needed portals.
 

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