Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

Re: North-South Rail Link

massmotorist ... where does the parking go? You can't compare a non-personal-vehicle mode to a personal-vehicle mode without figuring out where to store the vehicles (this goes for bikes too).

The Big Dig, at great expense, did speed up traffic within a certain radius of downtown. But they put the cap on parking spaces for a reason -- to avoid turning downtown into a parking lot hellhole with massive amounts of particulate pollution from the overabundance of cars.

There really is a trade-off between walkability and parkability. It can be approached in different ways, but somewhere you are going to have to sacrifice one for the other. Regulation forced the sacrifice of walkability for a long time, now people are changing their minds.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Uh, excuse me? The Downeaster isn't even operating at 90 mph, and you're using HSR speed metrics to shoot down the Worcester Branch as unviable? Seriously?

The necessary track improvements to the Worcester Branch that get it up to 60 MPH also probably buy us some more good will with Pan Am, which is valuable, and the 'gradual investments' you mention are going to be happening anyway. Investing in the Worcester Branch now gives us a viable route to NYP now, and it's the only part of the route down that can't piggyback on investments aimed at some other service. It's more than worth doing, and also doesn't preclude a shift over to Link usage later once the Link gets built.

Nope. Not at all.

Pan Am's profitability hinges on double-stack freight cars and 286,000 lb. carrying weight into Ayer from the west. Full-stop. That matters to them even more than speed...their mainline spec is 25 MPH freight/40 MPH passenger. They don't promise their customers any faster than that because they aren't in as direct competition with Mass Pike trucking as CSX, and the type of goods they ship from Maine to NY tends not to be as time-sensitive. Norfolk Southern bought a 50% stake in that route for no other reason than to get a heavyweight clearance route...not a fast one. And when they achieve that east to Ayer...goal #2 is doing it all over again from Ayer to Portland. Nothing else matters. Getting a 60-70 MPH Downeaster was a lot of arm-twisting. They got that because the Patriot Corridor upgrades were the dangled bait that got them to allow 60 MPH passenger to Maine.

They are sinking huge amounts of their own money and Norfolk Southern's into the mainline, and reversed an entire generation's worth of hostility to passenger trains when they saw that meal ticket. Do not think for one second that they give a rat's ass about the condition of the Worcester Branch until they have an end-to-end mainline that gives them competitive parity with CSX. If the loads ain't flowing to Ayer, they don't care how it flows out of Ayer. Until they need it, their balance sheet says 10 MPH jointed rail from the 1930's is just peachy for getting to Worcester and they don't waste one track gang maintaining it or any other branchline better than that. Go see the condition of the rail they operate on in Peabody, Portsmouth, or downtown Concord to see where branchlines are on their pecking order. There is no goodwill to be had with Pan Am for floating nonessential passenger proposals in front of their faces. They're a lizard-brain bottom line operation, make no bones about it, and are completely consistent about it. Every hard-won passenger improvement to the Downeaster came with an equally hard-won freight improvement. This will never change as long as they are landlord. Embrace it, don't fight it. Shit started getting done in a hurry when the New England states stopped fighting with them and pining for lizard-brain to be something other than lizard-brain...and embraced it. They were one of the most hated companies in the northeast in an earlier era where the states chafed with that lizard brain. It is no coincidence that the marriage turned happy-go-lucky when the states' ROI suddenly started being catered snugly around the freight ROI.

Want to buy goodwill with them...sink all the dough you want to spend getting the Worcester Branch to 60 MPH into getting the Western Route double-tracked through NH as collateral for continuous 80 MPH. Do something that's going to flush Ayer and East Deerfield so full of freight traffic the yards are bursting at the seams. But until you can do that, they are not talking to anyone about improving the Worcester Branch beyond minimal operating upkeep. They can hit CSX in Rotterdam, NY with double stacks or in Springfield with 286,000 lb. cars when the Patriot Corridor is up to spec. They don't need the Worcester Branch in any mission-critical capacity until Ayer is exploding. And they don't invest at all unless it's mission critical.

Do not think for one second that passenger interests alone or the promise of indirect 'gravy' benefits from passenger money are going to force that conversation. The passenger work they have allowed are one-and-the-same with their #1 freight priorities. They made quick work of the Downeaster and their share of the Fitchburg upgrades that hit their mainline. They dragged their feet for 2 years doing nothing on the Conn River for the Vermonter over "staff shortages" until the state bought the line outright. Then...about a week after the sale the track gangs appeared en masse and started working at a torrid pace to satisfy their commitments to the sale. If they own a line, only their track gangs work the line...and they don't assign track gangs to non-priorities. They have abandoned lines rather than do minimal upkeep to non-priority lines at someone else's behest. The Worcester Branch is about their 5th or 6th freight priority. It's reflected as such on the state's own Freight & Rail Plan...which gives enough mainline freight work priority to keep everyone busy for the next 15 years.

Either buy the line outright from the lizard brains headquartered in Billerica, or get crackin' on fulfilling every mainline upgrade they want first. Because if you start talking to them about nonessential fluff like speeds on an outflow branch...they're gonna cut that talk right off and get obstinate about why that's on the table ahead of X, Y, and Z freight improvements. And if I'm the state and have to justify a line purchase on ROI, I am not even thinking about the Worcester Branch right now. There is so much more to immediately gain spending that money on the mainline. Or, hell, writing CSX a few more fat checks since they still dwarf Pan Am's wildest growth dreams in raw heft and property with passenger upside (helloooo, B&A to Springfield).

It's not gonna happen as an alternative to making the existing trunks faster. To satiate demand for a "State of Maine" train revival...yes, I think the Grand Junction is the only way you're getting that in the next 20 years. And I do think the demand for that trip is there to not want to wait 20 years. Coincidentally, we DID pony up and buy the GJ to take the passenger considerations out of the hands of the freight operator that thought 10 MPH stick rail was just dandy for the bottom line. Somebody's already made a value judgment on which line was more worth paying the freight owner to go away.


Unless you're arguing that there cannot possibly be a Downeaster run into New York without eliminating one or more Downeaster runs into Boston (which is a stupid argument on its face), there's absolutely no ridership advantage to be garnered from screwing around with a reverse move on top of whatever speed limit the Grand Junction's locked down to now. NS or Anderson riders going to Portland are going to hop on any of the BON - POR Downeasters, and NS or Anderson riders going to New York are going to make their way into South Station, Back Bay, or Route 128 and take any Regional or Acela Express train down.
.

No. I did not say that at all. You schedule-coordinate an Inland Regional with a Downeaster departure. North Station has slack space. The GJ is a hell of a lot easier to upgrade than the Worcester Branch. Spend the money where it needs to be spent: getting the B&A, NH Main, and Western Route in MBTA territory to 80 MPH. Who cares if the GJ is only 40 MPH...the trunks that matter get the attention that matters on the schedule. And everything that runs there gets to feast off the attention. Including the freights when it's time to start raising clearances in NH. You get all the extra schedule slots you'd need by simply not having a slow-ass traffic clog east of Framingham and south of Anderson. NONE of those benefits happen if all the attention goes to a curvy bypass that won't achieve close to those speeds, only matters for 1 or (stretching it) 2 NY-POR round trips a day, and which the owner is possibly uncooperative about upgrading since it's their 5th priority.

Don't force-fit this. It makes no bloody bottom-line sense to ANY of the parties involved. Including the Maine intercity market who'd do much better to have a faster and less-delayed Downeaster with more schedule slots in play sooner than that perfect-on-a-map NY direct. Mapmakers' perfectionism is the enemy of getting shit done when ruthless profit-driven entities are holding all the cards. Not only will they not cooperate...they'll actively impede if your plans don't bootstrap 1:1 with their profit centers.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Either buy the line outright from the lizard brains headquartered in Billerica, or get crackin' on fulfilling every mainline upgrade they want first. Because if you start talking to them about nonessential fluff like speeds on an outflow branch...they're gonna cut that talk right off and get obstinate about why that's on the table ahead of X, Y, and Z freight improvements. And if I'm the state and have to justify a line purchase on ROI, I am not even thinking about the Worcester Branch right now. There is so much more to immediately gain spending that money on the mainline. Or, hell, writing CSX a few more fat checks since they still dwarf Pan Am's wildest growth dreams in raw heft and property with passenger upside (helloooo, B&A to Springfield).

It's not gonna happen as an alternative to making the existing trunks faster. To satiate demand for a "State of Maine" train revival...yes, I think the Grand Junction is the only way you're getting that in the next 20 years. And I do think the demand for that trip is there to not want to wait 20 years. Coincidentally, we DID pony up and buy the GJ to take the passenger considerations out of the hands of the freight operator that thought 10 MPH stick rail was just dandy for the bottom line. Somebody's already made a value judgment on which line was more worth paying the freight owner to go away.



No. I did not say that at all. You schedule-coordinate an Inland Regional with a Downeaster departure. North Station has slack space. The GJ is a hell of a lot easier to upgrade than the Worcester Branch. Spend the money where it needs to be spent: getting the B&A, NH Main, and Western Route in MBTA territory to 80 MPH. Who cares if the GJ is only 40 MPH...the trunks that matter get the attention that matters on the schedule. And everything that runs there gets to feast off the attention. Including the freights when it's time to start raising clearances in NH. You get all the extra schedule slots you'd need by simply not having a slow-ass traffic clog east of Framingham and south of Anderson. NONE of those benefits happen if all the attention goes to a curvy bypass that won't achieve close to those speeds, only matters for 1 or (stretching it) 2 NY-POR round trips a day, and which the owner is possibly uncooperative about upgrading since it's their 5th priority.

Don't force-fit this. It makes no bloody bottom-line sense to ANY of the parties involved. Including the Maine intercity market who'd do much better to have a faster and less-delayed Downeaster with more schedule slots in play sooner than that perfect-on-a-map NY direct. Mapmakers' perfectionism is the enemy of getting shit done when ruthless profit-driven entities are holding all the cards. Not only will they not cooperate...they'll actively impede if your plans don't bootstrap 1:1 with their profit centers.

I never said that the Worcester Branch was an alternative to boosting trunkline speeds, and, in fact, I agree with a lot of what you've said here.

Where it breaks down, in my mind, is the idea that we actually need to be running POR - NYP roundtrips any time in the next 20 years. I don't think that we do. The current system of transferring via the Orange Line between Regionals and Downeasters seems to be working out reasonably well - and creating an operational nightmare in a reverse-move across the Grand Junction to somehow link up with an Inland Regional or any other train is just not worth the effort. It makes even less sense to introduce that headache, and for what? Is the transfer really that soul-crushingly bad that it needs to be avoided at all costs? I don't think so.

And I never siad that this could, should, or would come at the expense of the vital trunkline upgrades. I said that using future track conditions on trunklines after improvements which haven't happened and aren't going to for several years at least to torpedo a potential routing today was stupid, because it is. In fact, the conditions to have the Inland Regionals that you want to link up with the Downeaster to New York running aren't here today - and if you ask me, safe money's on the Inland Regional coming back sometime in 2020 and not a year before that.

You're accusing me of trying to force-fit something that's "perfect on a map" - but POR - WOR - NYP is not and never will be "map perfect." It's just good enough to work, but if you're so certain it can't work, then that's fine too - we can just take POR - NYP service off the table until conditions become favorable to it, whether that's because the Link gets built or because (more likely) there's enough freight traffic and political willpower coming out of Maine for a Worcester direct.

Either way, that train is never going via the Grand Junction. I can promise you that much right now.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

IPeople have different preferences, and none is necessarily superior to any others. .

Yes, walking and driving are the same.

Same pollution generated, same congestion generated, same enormous economic impact of collisions, same environmental impact of parking.

Clearly the car is equal to all other modes, no negative externalities at all
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

POR-WOR-NYP is reasonable for a Portland-New York City train in the absence of a North-South Rail Link. But if you have one, I think running any other route than POR-BON/BOS-NYP is silly... it combines the demand for the Downeaster with the demand for service south of there, and Amtrak in Virginia has found that direct extensions of the NEC can be even outright profitable if done right.

Of course, if a via-Worcester train is instituted before the Link is built, and Inland Regionals aren't, then Worcester might end up being a strong enough constituency wanting to hold onto its service to keep a train there. (Maybe- they let the Inland Route die) But if you haven't already instituted Portland-NEC service at the time of the Link, I can't imagine not using it for that purpose.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I would love to see regional merged and extended into this one day...

The Eastern Regional Service
Old Town
Bangor
Newport
Pittsfield
Waterville
Augusta
Gardiner

Brunswick
Freeport < Becomes a commuter rail stop only
Portland Union
Old Orchard Beach
Saco
Kennebunk
Wells
Dover
Durham
Exeter
Haverhill
Lawrence < New station
Anderson < Is dropped , commuter rail only
Central / GOVT Center Station
Boston Back Bay
Route 128
Pawtucket
Providence
Kingston
Westerly
Mystic
New London
Old Saybrook
New Haven Union
Bridgeport
Stamford
New Rochelle
Sunnyside JCT
New York Penn Station
Newark Penn Station
Newark Liberty Airport
Metropark
New Brunswick < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Princeton JCT < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Trenton
Cornwall Heights < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
North Philadelphia
Philadelphia 30th Street
Wilmington
Newark < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Aberdeen < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Baltimore Penn Station
Baltimore-Washington Airport
New Carrollton
Washington DC
Alexandria
Woodbridge < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Quantico
Fredricksburg
Milford-Bowling Green
Ashland
Richmond Staples Mill Road
Main Street - Richmond


Maine Coastal Commuter Rail
Bath
Brunswick
Freeport
Yarmouth
Cumberland Center
North Deering

Portland Union
Scarborough
Old Orchard Beach
Saco
Biddeford
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Freeport is a major tourist attraction -- you'd always want trains to stop there if they are passing through.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Yes, walking and driving are the same.

Same pollution generated, same congestion generated, same enormous economic impact of collisions, same environmental impact of parking.

Clearly the car is equal to all other modes, no negative externalities at all

I got a chuckle out of someone pointing out all the restsrictions of public transportation (paraphrasing but: bustitution, the much-diminished streetcar lines, that it closes and is woefully underfunded to stay modern).

Why yes, car-is-king advocates some of whom live away from Boston scream and don't want "their taxes" paying for Boston. Public transportation is artificially hindered so obviously it won't measure up to auto travel. Because it's been kneecapped, blindfolded and kicked in the junk.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Public transportation is artificially hindered so obviously it won't measure up to auto travel. Because it's been kneecapped, blindfolded and kicked in the junk.

I think the MBTA's next report about its funding needs should be titled "Kneecapped, Blindfolded, and Kicked in the Junk."
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I would love to see regional merged and extended into this one day...

The Eastern Regional Service
Old Town
Bangor

. . .
Main Street - Richmond

Why Old Town? Bangor is a perfectly acceptable end of the line, and there's nowhere else for that train really to go.

Also, I can't help but feel like at some point, continually tacking services onto the Northeast Corridor banner is going to leave us with a megalithic nightmare... Virginia and Maine don't really need a straight connection.

If anything, I'd run the future Northeast Corridor extension up to Concord via Lowell and cut it there as the Western Route, and then the Eastern Route from Boston up into Portsmouth. The Downeaster is probably strong enough to survive on its own without having to be conjoined to the NEC main line.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

"Kneecapped, Blindfolded, and Kicked in the Junk."

All highly possible outcomes of one riding the wrong bus into one of Boston's lovely 'urban' neighborhoods.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Why Old Town? Bangor is a perfectly acceptable end of the line, and there's nowhere else for that train really to go.

Also, I can't help but feel like at some point, continually tacking services onto the Northeast Corridor banner is going to leave us with a megalithic nightmare... Virginia and Maine don't really need a straight connection.

If anything, I'd run the future Northeast Corridor extension up to Concord via Lowell and cut it there as the Western Route, and then the Eastern Route from Boston up into Portsmouth. The Downeaster is probably strong enough to survive on its own without having to be conjoined to the NEC main line.

The University of Maine Campus is right near the town , so I feel they should get service... You just need to build 2 tracks with a switch and thats how you turn the trains , the Port Washington Branch does this. The New NEC will shift some services off the current NEC freeing up space which means that regional service should be fine. I would split regional and send it Inland... I haven't left out New Hampshire they would get Regional Service.... While the Downeaster can survive without merging , Merging would reduce future congestion and boost Ridership...

The Inlander Regional Service
Old Town
Bangor
Newport
Pittsfield
Waterville
Augusta
Gardiner

Brunswick
Freeport < Becomes a commuter rail stop only
Portland Union
Old Orchard Beach
Saco
Kennebunk
Wells
Dover
Durham
Exeter
Haverhill
Lawrence < New station
Anderson < Is dropped , commuter rail only
Central / GOVT Center Station
Boston Back Bay
Newtownville
Framingham Center
Worcester
Palmer
Springfield Union
Windsor Locks
Hartford Union
New Haven Union
Bridgeport
Stamford
New Rochelle
Sunnyside JCT
New York Penn Station
Newark Penn Station
Newark Liberty Airport
Metropark
New Brunswick < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Princeton JCT < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Trenton
Cornwall Heights < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
North Philadelphia
Philadelphia 30th Street
Wilmington
Newark < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Aberdeen < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Baltimore Penn Station
Baltimore-Washington Airport
New Carrollton
Washington DC
Alexandria
Woodbridge < Dropped in NEC Upgrade Regional Rail Reshuffle
Quantico
Fredricksburg
Milford-Bowling Green
Ashland
Richmond Staples Mill Road
Main Street - Richmond


The Hampshire Express
Concord
Manchester
Manchester Airport
Nashua

Lowell
Central / GOVT Center Station
Boston Back Bay
Route 128
Pawtucket
Providence
Kingston
Westerly
Mystic
New London
Old Saybrook
New Haven Union

(Limited Service South to NY/DC)
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Seriously, are you really going to try to make this case? Because it's not a good one.
Yes, I am seriously going to make this argument.

Your argument could be made about roads and automobile travel before the interstates were built. Why do cars on highways work so well now? Because we invested in them! We were proactive! Now we are stuck in a situation where we have a 2002 road system and a 1952 rapid transit system. No one but the most desperate would live in a home that had not been updated in 50 years, yet we find it acceptable to maintain our transit that way.

Of course our rapid transit is going to suck under these circumstances! It's terrible, we should be ashamed of it. It's woefully inadequate, outdated, doesnt go anywhere that our current transportation patterns want us to go, and hasnt had a major update or overhaul ever. But there is no way in hell its going to get better if people keep saying "well, it sucks now, so its going to keep sucking." FIX IT! Build a rapid transit system at least as good as the road network around it. Invest equally in transit as you do in roads. 50/50. Do it for the next 50 years. Then talk to me, if your still right I will eat my old-man shorts.

Because unless you're in Manhattan, they are the fastest way by far to get from "here" to "there". Virtually always.
Manhattan, unlike everywhere else, invested in their rapid transit. They didn't even do it well, with foresight, or that much: just a bit more than everywhere else, and its the best in the country.

Try some Google Maps scheduling. There's no excessive waiting or walking, no transferring from one line to the other. You can get from anywhere to anywhere in a car, at any time.
I don't have to use google maps. I live here, I own a bike, a car, and a charlie card. I make this decision every single day. For short trips my #1 choice is my bike. If I'm going downtown where there is congestion or scarce parking, I take the T. Otherwise I drive.

WOAH! Hold on, wait, just one second.

I choose driving for more than 50% of my trips even though I think driving should be all but banned in citys? Yes, because I am not somehow unaffected by the fact that our rapid transit system is an antiquated abomination. I need to get places fast too, and I drive to the seaport. I take my 2001 Jetta down roads repaved this decade to a 1960s interstate to a 2000s bridge to park in a parking lot that undoubtedly has a computer in the attendants kiosk. I do this versus taking a 1986 or 1998 trolley through 1900s tunnels designed for a different purpose than they serve now to a value engineered bus under the street.

The difference between you and I (and Kahta) is, I don't want to. I shouldn't have to, and I know it. I am being forced, against my will, to take a car I was forced by my job to buy to drive somewhere that I shouldn't have to drive to. I am being forced to by the one-two punch of a drastic underinvestment in mass transit combined with a massive overinvestment in personal transit. I want to have a transit system that is at least funded as well as the roads it should supplement.

Yet, even with that overinvestment, I can't (as you imply) just choose to go anywhere in a car at any time. I can't hop in my car at 5:10 on a weekday and go pretty much anywhere. In fact, I can go barely anywhere. I can't go from one end of Harvard Avenue to the other because traffic is so gridlocked.

I can't on a bus either, because it is stuck in traffic.

Traffic caused by the lack of sufficient alternate public transportation.

Lack of sufficient public transportation caused by the lack of investment in transit equal to that of roads.

The big dig doesnt work so well because it serves cars. It works so well and helps the economy because it is a great piece of infrastructure. If an equal amount was invested into the T we would have just as great an economic asset. Better in fact, because mass transit is a more efficient means for conveying people in an urban environment. A smart car, the smallest common auto around, can seat four, maybe five people. Really small, cramped, uncomfortable people. Those same people could fit in the same square footage on a train in vastly more comfortable quarters. If you make it uncomfortable, like the B line at rush hour, you can fit at least a dozen, possibly more.

You don't have to worry about train schedules.
But I do have to worry about traffic, and if I'm commuting anywhere around 128 I have to get up much earlier then should be necessary because someone might get in an accident and tie up traffic for miles in every direction.

For the most part, roads don't close. You depend far less on the competence of the government (or a company, for that matter) to run a system. It's easier and faster to get from one place to another off-peak, while with transit, off-peak scheduling can actually make it slower.
The T shutting down at night issue is a quagmire of political, managerial, and labor issues that are wholly unrelated to the operation of an effective mass transit system. More money would help, a kick in the ass from the mayor, or better coalition of mayors in the metro area would help a lot more. As for the other points, investment equal to that of roads would put them all to bed. The competence of your road people killed a girl in the tunnels and is allowing the overpasses we constructed for glorious cars to fall into ruin. The only difference here is that the roads are in general newer, and falling apart less. They are equally mismanaged. You get a lot more bang for your buck if you throw it at transit, and the other issues of peak/off peak travel level out with increased funding and usage.

You can bring lots of stuff with you, and shop at Costco and spend half or less what you'd spend to get the same stuff at a neighborhood supermarket. You get your own personal climate-controlled space. You can make pit stops at the cleaners and pick the kids up from the babysitter. As of right now I have yet to have a homeless person expose himself in my car, or get mugged in it.
Delivery trucks and zipcars can also haul lots of stuff. Costco is only sustainable because our investments in roads allow enough people to get to it to sustain its low prices and loss leaders with volumes of sales. It also helps that it took away sufficient business from local retailers that they had to raise their prices or go out of business. I would also imagine they operate some stores at a loss for greater brand presence and to ensure there is no base where competition can spring up (such as the Walgreens in Coolidge Corner, which I have been told looses money every day). The T is climate controlled/ You would have no need for pit stops on the way home if we had walkable communities sustained by transit, where everything is near your home. As of right now I have yet to have any person expose themselves to me anywhere, or get mugged anywhere. As for the two exposings I have been privy to, one was a guy who began slowly driving next to an ex of mine while masturbating before she ran into a gas station, the other a man masturbating in a car next to our bus on my high school trip to an amusement park. Neither was caught, as they were able to quickly drive away. Since we are grasping at straws here I will also say I have not heard of kids being lured into a trolley with puppies to be kidnapped, or platoons of teenagers plowing locomotives into trees driving drunk.

Saying that cars "kind of" work in the suburbs is crazy. They completely work, and transit is very obviously inferior in suburban areas. I live in a highly congested, dense suburb, and a trip that would have been 30 minutes round trip took me two hours by bus the last time I had to use transit. And the bus went basically took me door-to-door with no transfers!
Of course it did, because no one but the most desperate use it because it is so under invested in that it takes that long to get somewhere. Cars don't work in the suburbs, there is just no other practical option. They have to work because that’s all there is. I lived the first decade of my life in Bergen County, NJ. A lot of my relatives still live there. I know ALL ABOUT driving in the burbs. Saying cars work there is like saying the toilet at my store works. Sure, if you hold the lever long enough and maybe hit it with the plunger the mass will eventually wash itself through the hole. But it takes for ever, and sometimes it overflows and makes a huge mess. The suburbs overflow almost every day. You can keep upgrading the pipes to handle more volume, but eventually all you end up with is a giant sewer and nothing else.

The most realistic benefit of transit is to permit households with two spouses to own only one car, and to allow those without licenses (kids, elderly, etc) some means of getting around on their own. The fixed cost of owning a car is huge, and most two-spouse, two-car households have at least one of their vehicles unused the vast majority of the time - but they need two vehicles because during peak hours they both need to get to work. If one can use transit, that's a huge savings at little cost. You still get the enormous benefits of car ownership, but at a much lower cost.
The most realistic benefit of transit is to give people an equal or better alternative to driving. Sufficient investment would make this a realistic choice.
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

massmotorist ... where does the parking go? You can't compare a non-personal-vehicle mode to a personal-vehicle mode without figuring out where to store the vehicles (this goes for bikes too).

The Big Dig, at great expense, did speed up traffic within a certain radius of downtown. But they put the cap on parking spaces for a reason -- to avoid turning downtown into a parking lot hellhole with massive amounts of particulate pollution from the overabundance of cars.

There really is a trade-off between walkability and parkability. It can be approached in different ways, but somewhere you are going to have to sacrifice one for the other. Regulation forced the sacrifice of walkability for a long time, now people are changing their minds.

Let the market decide. Remove the regulatory restrictions on parking minimums, as well as parking maximums. If people want parking they pay for it, if they don't they don't. If developers want to provide parking for their residents/workers, they can, if they don't they won't. And market-price all street parking.

This is something lots of pro-car people usually oppose, but not me. I'm confident that we don't need the regulatory subsidy, because on a level playing field cars will do just fine.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

because on a level playing field cars will do just fine.

Cars wouldn't do just fine: they would do better. However, it will be alot more costly, and there would be alot fewer cars and trips by car. It would be a lot easier to find convenient parking, a lot less congestion, etc.

At least, i believe that to be the case.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Let the market decide. Remove the regulatory restrictions on parking minimums, as well as parking maximums. If people want parking they pay for it, if they don't they don't. If developers want to provide parking for their residents/workers, they can, if they don't they won't. And market-price all street parking.

This is something lots of pro-car people usually oppose, but not me. I'm confident that we don't need the regulatory subsidy, because on a level playing field cars will do just fine.
Ok, but we'd also have to visit pricing the street itself and the use of streets for parking. Your free-market options are either demand-based curbside pricing, or keep the same (too-low) curbside parking prices but implement a congestion price to charge for all the street real estate that a car uses.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

The free market never fails. Simply remove all regulations and reap the rewards.

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Re: North-South Rail Link

I guess this is what you get when bicycles totally outnumber cars. Is that a Critical Mass event?
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Many MANY thanks to Davem above for perhaps the most thoughtful and well-reasoned post I've read in a while. If I were you I would shop that around to Atlantic Cities or Slate, etc.

To build on his destruction of little straw men:

I often hear many people make the argument that US cities cannot support European or Asian style mass-transit - the cities, population and development patterns are inherently different and the investment in state-of-the-art mass transit is therefore not worthwhile.

Let's put aside the historical fallacy that this statement entails (and not just vis a vis the East Coast, but even relative to "car central" LA) ... and instead just focus on the logic here. Turn it on its head: "European and Asian cities cannot support American-style car infrastructure - the cities, population and development patterns are inherently different and the investment in state-of-the-art expressways is not worthwhile."

And yet...

Europe, and soon China - and over the coming decades, India - these places nonetheless have or will have car infrastructure, especially expressways, on par with the US. Somehow, the nature of the cities, population and settlement patterns weren't enough to make it not worthwhile, and they have done it in parallel with superior mass transit.

True: European expressways often bypass city centers. So there's one difference. And yes, American mass transit 2.0 will be different in some ways from the European model as well. But these things can, and should, be done in parallel.

To me, the difference really isn't around the nature of cities, or population patterns, or settlement trends. It's about policy. Driving in Europe is expensive. Gas is heavily taxed. That's not to say that transit is cheap: a return Zone 1 trip on the London Tube with no Oyster Card is a shocking $8. The difference here is the admission by government and society at large that mobility - of any form - does not come for free and that investments can coexist to find an optimal balance.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I do not agree with the on "brilliance of davem" sentiment. And I see the equivalent mentality of the people who want cars for everything and want to bulldoze everything to fit a car lifestyle.

Frankly, if MassMortorist have a different handle, I'm very willing to bet the sentiment would a bit less hostile. Because the tone and arguments to him seem to be along the lines he is advocating that cars are superior and mass transit should go die in a corner. If you read his past posts, you know he does not push for that and he is not saying that now.

In short, making points such as transit is underinvested and thus people are forced to use cars rathers because it is the best option is a moot point. Because both sides agree on that point.

The point of contention is the tone towards cars and MassMortorist is trying to remind that cars have a place. And not saying European/Asian-style mass transit does not belong here. Yet everyone seems to be counter-arguing that is the point being said. Making points how parking will destroy Boston, massive pollution, and people drive cars because transit is are not given the equal investment. Yet, I think everyone here would agree our public transit system needs a real investment and no one here is arguing for more highways or parking lots.

I also have one other point I need to make. I agree with DaveM (as would everyone else here I presume) that transit is under-invested. That many people take cars not for one of the intrinsic qualities of cars, but only how the system is setup. But I cannot agree with the encapsulation of the point by the commute of the Seaport as a product of pure underinvestment towards transit versus over-investment towards cars as long the measuring stick is travel time. If the Seaport (with the rest of Boston) gets a real investment (so lets say actually heavy rail stops and everything), travel time will still hold to a disadvantage unless we re-centralize the system to the Seaport. Of course, if transit time weren't so bad, then other qualities intrinsic to transit can begin make up for the dent in commute time. But the discussion seem to be focused on travel time, so it still needs to be said.
 

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